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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Apr 11, 2017 14:16:52 GMT -5
"The Jesuit College of Worcester" Please stop the insanity
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Post by breezy on Apr 11, 2017 17:13:16 GMT -5
Twitter this afternoon:
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Post by gks on Apr 11, 2017 17:38:22 GMT -5
Good grief.
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Post by hcpride on Apr 11, 2017 18:15:57 GMT -5
Not that it matters because the entire conundrum is so infantile, but the caption refers to the crusader 'nickname' as opposed to the student paper. Perhaps the newspaper, college nickname, and college mascot are all up for discussion. Might as well ditch the motto and school name as those are doubtlessly offensive to some.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 12, 2017 6:20:33 GMT -5
Lead article in the T&G www.telegram.com/news/20170411/holy-cross-debates-abandoning-crusader-mascotI did note in the twitter pic that the first five or so rows of seats were largely unoccupied, were they being reserved, or was everyone sitting in the back hoping not to be called on?. Since the name 'crusader' was bestowed on HC by a graduate of Amherst, wonder what he would think (if he were alive) at the Lord Jeffs being no more. IMO, at a minimum, the crusader will be de-weaponized. _____________________________________________________ And if I were to suggest a change, I'd go with centurions. That ties the school to Constantine, to In Hoc Signo Vinces, to the royal purple (only worn by the emperor / empress, and to the labarum, Constantine's imperial standard, which he supposedly entrusted to the scholae palatinae, or household guard. Constantine's labaram as sketched by Peter Paul Rubens.
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Post by ncaam on Apr 12, 2017 7:01:33 GMT -5
cru·sad·er kro͞oˈsādər/Submit noun 1. a fighter in the medieval Crusades. synonyms: campaigner, fighter, champion, advocate; reformer "she was a crusader against domestic violence" 2. a person who campaigns vigorously for political, social, or religious change; a campaigner. "crusaders for early detection and treatment of mental illness
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 12, 2017 7:07:13 GMT -5
Once we let outsiders decide what our symbols mean we may be in real trouble. The idea that "if one is offended, a symbol is de facto offensive" has a little problem. What if the one offended is simply an outsider who is also a nut? I am offended by the use of the word 'nut'. Therefore, that word is offensive and its very utterance constitutes a microaggression. In the dingbat community, nut is considered hate speech. What do you have against acorns?
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Post by Tom on Apr 12, 2017 7:25:12 GMT -5
I don't think that you have picked up on the real argument of the piece. Instead, you have made up an argument that you disagree with. The article clearly states that, in regard to the Klu Klux Klan, The point of this is that because an increasing number of people see the term Crusader as an indication of hate and intolerance, because of this and other examples, they may get an inaccurate and very unflattering view of Holy Cross or the student newspaper, because of our choosing and using the Crusader name. We may have a quite different idea of what is communicated than what the reality is. This is not about "being hurt" or "political correctness", but rather, it is a question of how do we accurately project the true image and aspirations of our great college and it's student newspaper to those who do not know us. The issue raises many questions for me. For example, does this have any affect on who and how many students apply to Holy Cross? We need to take the big picture and the long view, and not be reactionary! This latest round of discussion started with the newspaper, but is spilling over to the mascot. In terms of the newspaper, this got started because a group of whack jobs co-opted the word "Crusader" (presumably meaning the basic definition of the word has a fight to bring change (for good)) to try to legitimize a position that I find totally ignorant. That same group has also co-opted the symbol of the Cross. With the exception of one poster, who I suspect is mostly jesting, really want to change the name of the college because fringe groups are co-opting symbols?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Apr 12, 2017 7:30:26 GMT -5
I hope the College comes to its senses and stops this nonsense
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Post by Tom on Apr 12, 2017 8:45:53 GMT -5
I hope the College comes to it senses and stops this nonsense Not going to happen. There going to have all kinds of dialog on the topic. Depending on who you believe, the dialog may be legitimate or it may be a sham. Then a decision will be made On a positive note, in terms of the mascot, this is very different than the name of a student run paper and the alumni are also stakeholders and might have a voice, I have to believe the vast majority of the alumni share KY's opinion that this is all nonsense
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 12, 2017 9:06:26 GMT -5
Here is my prediction. 1.) The Crusader newspaper is independent of the college, and the name of the newspaper is a decision to be made by the editors. They might poll the students. 2.) As HC did with Mulledy, it will split the baby. The Crusader name will remain, the branding will drop most/all representations of militaristic crusaders. ^^^ Rugby club in Fiji. Pretty clever, the Templar cross, the chi-rho, and Constantine's vision. Nam Caesar, Flavius Richomeres (antecessoris) Consul of Rome
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 12, 2017 9:19:33 GMT -5
A shield is pretty militaristic.
This whole issue reminds me of one officer I had in the NY Guard when we were stationed at the 7th Regiment Armory after 9/11. He would not let the men carry canteens because he thought they liked like weapons and that might upset the neighbors. The BDU camo uniforms apparently were not considered "militaristic." He was trying to be politically correct, but he forgot we were also soldiers at a time when our nation was believed to be at risk of further attacks.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 12, 2017 9:20:45 GMT -5
Asking as a former sports editor...when did the paper become independent from the college?
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Post by ncaam on Apr 12, 2017 9:22:42 GMT -5
Best defense against all this is to stop targeting the bottom then targeting the top.
Start a cru...campaign to get rid of Holy Cross AND the Jesuits, descendents of the despicable Loyola outed above by pp. So doing will force the Jesuit community to back off.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 12, 2017 9:24:56 GMT -5
Not much "forces" the Jesuit community to do anything.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 12, 2017 10:08:27 GMT -5
Re: the independence of the newspaper. It seems to have been independent when the editors took a student poll to change the name to Crusader. And the first edition, crossworks.holycross.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=tomahawkimplies that it was independent from the start. The name came from an earlier publication the Pakachoag Tomahawk, which appears to have been an irregularly published periodical used to raise funds for the college. ________________________________________________ A student from Dartmouth weighs in. sites.dartmouth.edu/crusadememory/2016/05/30/the-crusader-mascot/The student notes (as of last year) the Crusader mascot remained firmly established at only three schools: HC, Evangel University, and North Greenville University. Eleven others had changed, or were in the process.
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Post by td128 on Apr 12, 2017 10:28:52 GMT -5
Sent this along to folks in Fenwick and O' Kane:
Has there been any dialogue as to whether the college might want to take an alumni survey on this topic? I have to believe a fairly basic online survey could be developed and shared with the alumni who could then offer their thoughts and opinions.
Just an idea and one I think would be well received. I also think if a decision is made unilaterally on campus without alumni input that it would not be well received.
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Post by Chu Chu on Apr 12, 2017 11:06:24 GMT -5
The Dartmouth article is interesting. One school they forgot is Whitman College. They dropped their "Missionaries" mascot, named after Marcus Whitman, a missionary who was killed by Indians (native Americans). www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/education/whitman-college-dumps-missionary-mascot/"Campus officials said the Missionaries’ mascot was considered noninclusive, imperialistic and incorrectly implied that Whitman was a religious school. It also was not terribly intimidating and often mocked. The old name was officially retired earlier this month and now the school is working to select a new mascot in the fall, Whitman spokeswoman Gina Ohnstad said. Some alumni aren’t happy.
“If the sports teams and the school didn’t feel the name was fearsome enough, then change it,” said Graham G. Storey, class of 1995, who is now a high-school teacher in Juneau, Alaska. “But the given justification for changing the mascot is a misguided act of atonement to make up for some perceived imperialistic stain that Marcus Whitman engaged in 180 years ago.” Whitman was an important historical figure, Storey said. His statue is one of two that Washington state has in the U.S. Capitol National Statuary Hall."
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Post by Tom on Apr 12, 2017 11:18:34 GMT -5
Re: the independence of the newspaper. It seems to have been independent when the editors took a student poll to change the name to Crusader. And the first edition, crossworks.holycross.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=tomahawkimplies that it was independent from the start. The name came from an earlier publication the Pakachoag Tomahawk, which appears to have been an irregularly published periodical used to raise funds for the college. ________________________________________________ A student from Dartmouth weighs in. sites.dartmouth.edu/crusadememory/2016/05/30/the-crusader-mascot/The student notes (as of last year) the Crusader mascot remained firmly established at only three schools: HC, Evangel University, and North Greenville University. Eleven others had changed, or were in the process. Obviously not a college, but a few miles down the road Whitinsville Christian (high school of former hoopster Alex Vanderbaan) are the Crusaders. It's kind of interesting that the article is from Dartmouth. They are one of the earlier schools I know of that changed mascots away from something native american
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Post by ncaam on Apr 12, 2017 11:50:13 GMT -5
Somebody ask the Dartmouth guy what the Dartmouth mascot is today....keggy the keg....you can look it up ( wiki )
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 12, 2017 12:33:26 GMT -5
When a name change for Mulledy was being considered, the college solicited alumni views. I sent my epistle in. I would expect if the college is considering a nickname change, they would follow this earlier precedent. However if HC is merely considering changing the stylized appearance, they might not solicit alumni views. I believe the Crusader newspaper charts its own course. ________________________________ I will opine one thing, and that is I expect the college doesn't want to be in the position of being last college standing, and having to defend, every several years, why it has retained the crusader nickname, when everyone else has changed. IIRC, the three 'belligerent' nicknames left among Catholic, Div I colleges and universities are the Fighting Irish, the Pirates, and the Crusaders. Its rather lonely company, and other Catholic schools have abandoned their nickname, e.g., St. John's Redmen (1930s?-1995).
The issue with the military crusades is that these are all-encompassing, in that crusades were launched not only against Muslims in the Holy Land and in Spain, but also targeted fellow Christians (the Orthodox, of which the Fourth Crusade against Constantinople is the most infamous, and the Cathars), Jews, and 'pagan' tribes (Prussians, Lithuanians, Finns among others).
So marshal the arguments in favor of retaining the name. The two that I've heard so far are:
> tradition (even though the nickname didn't originate from the college or from anyone associated with the college)
> the college should not be dictated to by others (forces and parties external to the college).
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 12, 2017 12:52:39 GMT -5
It is with some trepidation that I post this.
The suggestion that the Charlies be a new nickname (celebrate Charlemagne's restoration of Constantine's Holy Roman Empire) led me to wonder if something might be made from Mt. St. James (Jamies???/). But what was the origin of Mt. St. James?
It was the name of a seminary operated by a Fr. Fitton, and which anteceded the establishment of the college by about a decade.
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Post by ncaam on Apr 12, 2017 13:16:00 GMT -5
Jesuits and the Cross have tarnished histories. Pakachoag Hill College (Rockets). Go completely secular. Fr Boroughs the first to go.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Apr 12, 2017 13:40:32 GMT -5
Yeah, go completely secular. That makes as much sense as, say, recommending that the FBI give up crime investigating and get into the dry cleaning business or suggesting the U.S. Navy get rud of all those ships and concentrate on infantry tactics.
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Post by ncaam on Apr 12, 2017 13:47:43 GMT -5
Don't be dummkopf. That was tongue in cheek
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