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Post by hcpride on Mar 26, 2017 10:33:00 GMT -5
As noted in the case of Bowdoin, (54% SAT and/or 44% ACT), many of the upper tier test optional schools have much higher SAT and/or ACT submission statistics than HC (38% SAT and/or 23% ACT). This means HC SAT and ACT reported averages are far more influenced by the 'test score optional' inflationary effect .On another note, HC's 75% admission rate for early decision is a number that jumps off the page. This too has not gone unnoticed by prospective students and high school counselors. ED acceptance rate so high because we take every recruited athlete ED and that's a 1-for-1 scenario. Gotta somewhat agree with you there. Yes, we have an enormous percentage of recruited athletes (32 percent of school population, if Forbes is to be believed ) and they ordinarily are ED...so that accounts for a good portion of the very high ED acceptance rate. But take a look at four PL comparators (as presented by PP, above) Total apps / total enrolled / Early Decision apps / % ED apps enrolled / ED % of total enrolled / # enrolled off wait list Holy Cross 6693 / 765 / 477 / 73% / 45% / 14 Lafayette 8123 / 649 / 686 / 49% / 52% / 5 Colgate 8394 / 766 / 686 / 49% / 44% / 32 Bucknell 10487 / 950 / 746 / 60% / 47% / 65 Our low number of ED applicants overall means that hitting a target of picking close to 50% of enrolling students via ED means a very high rate of selection. Unfortunately, I don't see HC ED applications increasing much- - if at all - in the future. Very interesting article on early decision that does show how high the HC ED admit rate is in comparison to just about every other US school: www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/03/31/a-college-admissions-edge-for-the-wealthy-early-decision/?utm_term=.aedcebde4f37
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Post by crossbball13 on Mar 26, 2017 19:52:59 GMT -5
HC's application total is the lowest in the PL. And the percentage of enrolling students compared to the number of applications is the highest in the PL. Below is a ranked list of all PL schools, selected Greater Boston schools, several liberal arts elsewhere in the Northeast, and a few other Northeast schools between Richmond and Maine, by percentage of enrolling class as a percentage of applications. Most of the data is for the class of 2020, for a few schools its class of 2019. For the schools where I did not provide applications and enrollment data upthread, I have it included it here ___ / ____. I did not include schools in major metropolitan areas where I expect the day student enrollment is quite high (St. Peter's, Manhattan). Fordham 42811 / 2191 5.1% Northeastern 51063 / 2676 5.2% Brown 30496 / 1615 5.3% Boston U 54781 / 3628 6.6% Colby 7593 / 508 6.7% Tufts 19223 / 1246 6.7% Middlebury 8819 / 606 6.9% Richmond 10422 / 815 7.8% Lafayette 8.0% Georgetown 19478 / 1567 8.0% BC 28956 / 2359 8.1% Wesleyan 11928 / 774 8.5% Loyola 12727 / 1095 8.6% Bucknell 9.1% Colgate 9.1% Lehigh 13403 / 1249 9.3% Fairfield 11055 / 1056 9.6% Villanova 17272 / 1677 9.7% Providence 10225 / 1033 10.1% AU 16735 / 1779 10.6% WPI 10172 / 1091 10.7% Univ of Scranton 9114 / 1001 11.0% Ithaca 14480 / 1632 11.2% HC 11.4% Holy Cross has the fewest applicants of any of the schools listed above. Forget about national branding, it seems to be struggling with even regional branding. What to conclude: Ann does little out-reach to develop interest? HC has developed a reputation of favoring early decision applicants, others needn't bother applying? Still waiting for you to say a single positive thing about the school. Insufferable.
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Post by sarasota on Mar 26, 2017 22:11:23 GMT -5
crossbball13- Your criticism of PP is not justified. AMcD should have been replaced a while ago. My instinct tells me she has the same lazy problem that infected our prior AD.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 27, 2017 6:23:24 GMT -5
The Washington Post looked at 60+ highly competitive schools with early decision, (I do not work for the WaPo.)
List below is compiled from the WaPo article cited upthread.
Schools admitting 70 percent or more of Early Decision applicants, ranked (from low to high) by size of total enrolling class. Enrolling class is class of 2019. (WaPo probably could not find CDSs for all of the schools for the class of 2020.)
Number of ED admits / % of ED applicants admitted / total applicants / total enrolled Whitman 166 / 76% / 3790 / 364 Sewanee 190 / 75% / 4509 / 469 Conn College 347 / 70% / 5182 / 482 Rhodes 188 / 76% / 4666 / 562 DePauw 69 / 75% / 5182 / 596 Furman 126 / 94% / 5043 / 672 Dickinson 406 / 77% / 6031 / 731 HC 442 / 75% / 6595 / 738 St Olaf 245 / 73% / 7571 / 763
HC and Furman are the only Div I schools on the above list. Furman had 429 varsity athletes rostered last year, HC had 706.
The above data indicates HC, Dickinson, and Conn College are outliers; these schools enroll over 50 percent of the entering class through ED, and admit 70+ percent of ED applicants. (Athletic scollies does not explain it.) IMO, this is not a positive statistic when it comes to admissions.
As a note, ED differs from Early Action as ED is binding. ----------------- 'sota, under a different name, crossbball13 was a cheerleader for firing CMB, presumably because CMB's stats were unacceptable.
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Post by td128 on Mar 27, 2017 7:19:03 GMT -5
FWIW . . . Wake Forest admitted 55% of its 2021 incoming class this year via ED. Details provided were that the quality of the overall pool of ED applicants was exceptionally high. I think they had traditionally admitted 40-45% of the class via ED.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 27, 2017 7:47:43 GMT -5
FWIW . . . Wake Forest admitted 55% of its 2021 incoming class this year via ED. Details provided were that the quality of the overall pool of ED applicants was exceptionally high. I think they had traditionally admitted 40-45% of the class via ED. Colleges love ED. Wake Forest ED applicant number shot up to 2,000 - Wake accepted 750 of these 2,000. About a 27% ED acceptance rate. Contrast this with HC: Total apps / total enrolled / Early Decision apps / % ED apps enrolled / ED % of total enrolled / # enrolled off wait list Holy Cross 6693 / 765 / 477 / 73% / 45% / 14 Lafayette 8123 / 649 / 686 / 49% / 52% / 5 Colgate 8394 / 766 / 686 / 49% / 44% / 32 Bucknell 10487 / 950 / 746 / 60% / 47% / 65 We have the highest ED admit rate on this particular list: colleges.startclass.com/stories/6921/colleges-application-early-decision(Stats such as 'test score optional' reported board scores (including key stats on how many students actually report their score), selectivity rates (including key notation of 'test score optional'), early decision numbers, early decision admit rates, etc. do eventually and actually impact a district's reputation [for better or for worse]). Of course, these stats are not the sole instruments for building/dismantling a school's reputation). Interestingly, our stats would be far worse in many cases if we did not do the 'test score optional' tactic, so 'test score optional' is not in and of itself a bad thing relative to statistics.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 27, 2017 8:56:17 GMT -5
hcpride,
OK. So we get it. You think the test optional, lack of recruiting/inticing NMF students with merit aid, and the high rate of ED acceptancance is detrimental to Holy Cross.
Now what? Are you going to keep complaining to us and pointing out facts we've been discussing here for 10 years? What do you expect to accomplish by repeatedly posting essentially the same points here over the last 2 weeks?
What are you going to do about it?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 27, 2017 11:11:50 GMT -5
Here's what I did-- for 5 or 6 years I represented HC at a Louisville college and career fair. While Kentucky is outside the normal HC recruiting area I thought it was worth a try. I'm confident that helped attract more applications and I know of at least two students who later told me they chose Holy Cross because of interacting with me at the fair.
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Post by ncaam on Mar 27, 2017 11:42:02 GMT -5
Alums are an untapped resource.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 27, 2017 12:04:37 GMT -5
The jury is still out whether HC's current reputation drives its stats or if HC's stats drive its current reputation. Most likely a bit of both.
The academically-oriented students I speak to (and try to convince to apply to HC along with their applications to GT, ND, BC, Colgate, etc.) seem to know the stats pretty well. I think the readily-accessible data (selectivity, yield, 'test optional', athletic participation percentage, academic merit aid, USNWR rankings, etc) makes my task tougher with those particular and savvy kids.
I agree with an earlier poster that getting kids to visit the campus - best case an early visit - might be a key to improving the stats.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 27, 2017 12:05:32 GMT -5
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 27, 2017 12:16:07 GMT -5
CHC---Thanks-I never knew about the book sponsor opportunity. I'm going to sign up now and see if I can add a few of the high-powered Catholic high schools here in The Ville.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 27, 2017 12:35:30 GMT -5
A variation on ncaam's theme, which appears to be at least a piece of the issue, KY. They have the programs available, making them known to alumni (and ultimately the high school population as well) seems to be an issue.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 27, 2017 12:57:16 GMT -5
Here's a suggestion. Downgrade the significance of the interview.
HC categorizes these four aspects of an application to be Very Important. Rigor of the coursework; GPA, recommendations, and an interview.
I looked at other Northeast smaller-sized colleges to see how they characterized the importance of having an interview. Little point in looking at larger schools as they aren't going to interview 10,000 - 15,000 applicants.
Bowdoin, Interview considered Amherst, Not considered Williams, Not considered Wesleyan, Considered Colgate, Not considered Bucknell, Not considered Middlebury, Considered Lafayette, Recommendations categorized as important, interview is important Dickinson, Interview important Davidson, Important (interesting that test scores are more important than class rank / GPA) Colby, Interview considered Bates, Considered
I stopped there, fairly confidant that very few schools would categorize the interview as Very Important as Holy Cross does. If I'm an applicant, and I don't live in Worcester, how easy would it be to get an interview? According to HC, an interview is very important. so if I don't have one, that would seem to be a strike against me. So I won't apply.
As HC is the only school that I found that categorizes both recommendations and an interview as Very Important, that would strike me as this is a school where admittance may turn on 'who you know'.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 27, 2017 13:24:18 GMT -5
Or make it easier to have an interview.
Had a niece from Cape Cod apply to Harvard recently. Her interview was held on the Cape at a mutually agreeable location with a Harvard Alum. Think they wound up at a local Dunkin Donuts for about 20-30 minutes.
Not sure I'd endorse the location, but you get the idea.
Don't think it was required at Harvard or very important, but believe they set up the interview if they have an alumnus interviewer in your area.
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Post by alum on Mar 27, 2017 14:00:50 GMT -5
CHC---Thanks-I never knew about the book sponsor opportunity. I'm going to sign up now and see if I can add a few of the high-powered Catholic high schools here in The Ville. KY---I was thinking of doing the same thing at my kids' school (which has a Bean Scholar classmate of yours on the faculty) but the link CHC provided says that they are "unable to accept new schools into the program." Anyone who has read this or the prior board knows that I am not reflexively hypercritical of the College, but I have to say that this is disappointing. How much work is it to buy more copies of the Billy Collins book and send them out for distribution? This does not make any sense to me.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 27, 2017 14:14:47 GMT -5
Same here alum and I don't get it either.
Looks like its run by the alumni office, not admissions, though it sounds like - and may be - a program tailor made for co-operation between the two. Looking at the list of schools "available" it would seem they are clearly targeting the traditional recruiting base with a huge portion of those on the list Catholic schools and in the northeast.
Make a call and let us know what they say. I am there often enough and speak with individuals who should know so I will ask the question next time I'm on campus.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 27, 2017 14:44:27 GMT -5
I sent an email to Gloria Villa stating that I wanted to sponsor Catherine McAuley HS in my home town of Portland, Maine. It was on the "sponsors wanted" list. I also asked if HC wanted more schools and offered to take care of 4 of the top Catholic high schools here in the Ville. I guess I'll hear back that expansion is not in the plans???
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 28, 2017 7:32:22 GMT -5
I had wanted to compare HC and Villanova admissions ten years apart, but a Villanova CDS from 2007-2008 is not available. Thus, a comparison between Colgate and HC admissions ten years apart
The data compared is 2007-08 / 2116-17
Holy Cross Applications 7066 / 6693 Admitted 2331 / 2574 Enrolled 719 / 765
Factor Weights Rigor of high school courses Very Important / Ditto Class Rank Very Important / Important GPA Very Important / Ditto Interview Important / Very Important Recommendations Important / Very Important
Early decision Applied 469 / 477 Admitted 251 / 347
Standardized tests 48 percent submitted SATs, no ACT / 38% submitted SAT - 23% ACT SAT 25th-75th percentiles V&M 1210 - 1380 / 1220 -1370
Class rank Top tenth 65% / 61% Top quarter 97% / 87% Submitted rankings 43% / 27%
No GPA data _______________________________________________ Colgate Applied 8758 / 8394 Admitted 2242 / 2416 Enrolled 746 / 776
Factors Rigor. Class Rank, GPA are Very Important / ditto Recommendations Important / ditto Interview not considered / ditto
Early Decision Applied 730 / 752 Accepted 364 / 376
Standardized tests SAT percent submitting 79% / 47% ACT percent submitting 21% / 53% SAT 25-75th percentiles V&M 1250 -- 1430 / 1290 - 1460
Class rank Top tenth 54% / 72% Top quarter 83% / 93% Percent submitting ranking 31% / 25%
GPA GPA of 3.50 or higher: 63% / 78%
Impressions 1. Decline in applications for both may reflect smaller demographic cohort.
2. Both are admitting about the same number of students ED, relative to total size of enrolling class, but Colgate has a larger pool of ED applicants.
3. The academic credentials of Colgate's enrolling students have improved; the academic credentials of HC's enrolling students have declined somewhat, i.e., SAT score stagnant, class rank lower.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 28, 2017 8:06:54 GMT -5
I had wanted to compare HC and Villanova admissions ten years apart, but a Villanova CDS from 2007-2008 is not available. Thus, a comparison between Colgate and HC admissions ten years apart Impressions1. Decline in applications for both may reflect smaller demographic cohort. 2. Both are admitting about the same number of students ED, relative to total size of enrolling class, but Colgate has a larger pool of ED applicants. 3. The academic credentials of Colgate's enrolling students have improved; the academic credentials of HC's enrolling students have declined somewhat, i.e., SAT score stagnant, class rank lower. PP: Colgate has seen its academic reputation remain steady and even rise over the last decade (or two or three) while that of HC has fallen. I don't think there is any argument there from anyone on this thread. And the stats (and even more so when considering those that are 'test score optional' derived) reveal a substantive basis for the relative rise/decline in academic reputation. (BTW, USNWR has Colgate as tied for 12 and HC as tied for 32.) And the high school students I speak to confirm Colgate's reputation. I do think Colgate is a proper comparison ( comparator ?). Although obviously not a Catholic institution... they are our size, they are a northeast liberal arts college, and they share a similar commitment to sports via the Patriot League.
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Post by Chu Chu on Mar 28, 2017 12:40:24 GMT -5
Here's a suggestion. Downgrade the significance of the interview. HC categorizes these four aspects of an application to be Very Important. Rigor of the coursework; GPA, recommendations, and an interview. If I'm an applicant, and I don't live in Worcester, how easy would it be to get an interview? According to HC, an interview is very important. so if I don't have one, that would seem to be a strike against me. So I won't apply. As HC is the only school that I found that categorizes both recommendations and an interview as Very Important, that would strike me as this is a school where admittance may turn on 'who you know'. Your survey of the other schools is interesting. I have always been of the opinion that the interview is important for both the school and the applicant. Holy Cross is a personal place, where we value relationships. It really is a hallmark of our college experience, and the high student satisfaction, strong retention, high graduation rate and strong alumni network with very high alumni giving percentage speak to that fact. Student satisfaction and alumni giving % would be interesting comparatives to the list.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 28, 2017 16:31:35 GMT -5
Chu, those are good points. I had already decided to add Bowdoin (which went SAT optional before HC) and Lafayette to the comparison. (I think Bucknell has taken down its 2007-08 CDS because of past issues which are not relevant to this assessment, and I can't find a complete CDS for Lehigh.) Given your point,, I Googled for alumni giving rates, and the USN&WR had a site ranking the top 10 HC was not on it, even though HC has continually claimed to be >50%+ for recent years, and the lower ranked of the top 10 were below 50. There are several possible explanations: 1.) IIRC, HC no longer cooperates with USN&WR, thus that data point is missing for HC. 2.) HC's percentage includes giving by parties other than alumni. (Eric, unfortunately, seems not have found the new board, as he would likely have an answer.) Looking at another top 10 list albeit nearly 10 years old, HC is on it. www.alumnifactor.com/node/5854Of the NESCAC schools on that list, I believe the interview is categorized by all these schools as considered or not considered. Davidson categorizes the interview as important.
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Post by matunuck on Mar 28, 2017 17:25:04 GMT -5
Our standardized testing and interview policies reflect an admission process that's become much more subjective. HC releases very little hard data on its admissions stats, and I think they like it that way.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 28, 2017 18:44:16 GMT -5
One other factor to consider (and apologies if it has been covered) is graduation rate. Is HC still doing a great job of retaining freshmen and then graduating them on time?
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Post by crossbball13 on Mar 28, 2017 19:41:51 GMT -5
The Washington Post looked at 60+ highly competitive schools with early decision, (I do not work for the WaPo.) List below is compiled from the WaPo article cited upthread. Schools admitting 70 percent or more of Early Decision applicants, ranked (from low to high) by size of total enrolling class. Enrolling class is class of 2019. (WaPo probably could not find CDSs for all of the schools for the class of 2020.) Number of ED admits / % of ED applicants admitted / total applicants / total enrolledWhitman 166 / 76% / 3790 / 364 Sewanee 190 / 75% / 4509 / 469 Conn College 347 / 70% / 5182 / 482 Rhodes 188 / 76% / 4666 / 562 DePauw 69 / 75% / 5182 / 596 Furman 126 / 94% / 5043 / 672 Dickinson 406 / 77% / 6031 / 731 HC 442 / 75% / 6595 / 738 St Olaf 245 / 73% / 7571 / 763 HC and Furman are the only Div I schools on the above list. Furman had 429 varsity athletes rostered last year, HC had 706. The above data indicates HC, Dickinson, and Conn College are outliers; these schools enroll over 50 percent of the entering class through ED, and admit 70+ percent of ED applicants. (Athletic scollies does not explain it.) IMO, this is not a positive statistic when it comes to admissions. As a note, ED differs from Early Action as ED is binding. ----------------- 'sota, under a different name, crossbball13 was a cheerleader for firing CMB, presumably because CMB's stats were unacceptable. Did you not get into hc or something? Hcbball21 NAILED IT. MB and cronies were a joke and anyone who says others wise wasn't paying attention. According to PP the TPTB could not afford to fire MB. According to PP coach D was not worthy of a head coaching position. According to PP hc cannot afford HE. Lol. PP, are basketballs blown up or stuffed? Too funny.
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