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Post by hcpride on Mar 29, 2017 6:05:23 GMT -5
Here's a suggestion. Downgrade the significance of the interview. HC categorizes these four aspects of an application to be Very Important. Rigor of the coursework; GPA, recommendations, and an interview. If I'm an applicant, and I don't live in Worcester, how easy would it be to get an interview? According to HC, an interview is very important. so if I don't have one, that would seem to be a strike against me. So I won't apply. As HC is the only school that I found that categorizes both recommendations and an interview as Very Important, that would strike me as this is a school where admittance may turn on 'who you know'. Your survey of the other schools is interesting. I have always been of the opinion that the interview is important for both the school and the applicant. Holy Cross is a personal place, where we value relationships. It really is a hallmark of our college experience, and the high student satisfaction, strong retention, high graduation rate and strong alumni network with very high alumni giving percentage speak to that fact. Student satisfaction and alumni giving % would be interesting comparatives to the list. The qualities you note are certainly true: "high student satisfaction, strong retention, high graduation rate and strong alumni network with very high alumni giving percentage." There is also no debate over the quality of our teaching faculty nor, in fact, the beauty of the campus. The concern is the academic quality of our applicants, the admission statistics, and slippage in our academic reputation. IMHO, these critical latter issues require illumination, recognition, and purposeful strategies as the trend is not upward. (I am coming from this at the user end - irrespective of the fact that I am a proud HC grad from a family of proud HC grads)
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 29, 2017 6:07:56 GMT -5
One other factor to consider (and apologies if it has been covered) is graduation rate. Is HC still doing a great job of retaining freshmen and then graduating them on time? Yes, HC has a high retention rate and a high graduation rate. These data are part of the CDS. The 2016-17 CDS for HC indicates a 96 percent retention rate for the class of 2018 entering their junior year. The six year graduation rates for the most recent two years covered in this data set are 92 percent. That counts as b big positive in national rankings. (And as part of the CDS, it would be available to USN&WR for its rankings, whereas alumni giving would not be.) Top ten nationally for the class of 2013, USN&WR would not have data yet from all schools for class of 2014. www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/highest-grad-rateFor the HC class of 2014, the four year rate is .887% HC does slightly better than Bowdoin in the third year retention rate. (HC does not have a public multi-year chart similar to Bowdoin's.). www.bowdoin.edu/ir/data/retention.shtml
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 29, 2017 7:16:06 GMT -5
I have yet to compare Lafayette and Bowdoin, but in the interim, here is BC, doing better than HC, but losing ground, perception-wise, among high school students.
BC does not prepare a CDS, but does produce an annual fact book with lots of information.
BC for class entering fall of 2007 / 2016
Applications 28850 / 28956 Acceptances 7869 / 9017 Enrolled 2291 / 2359 Enrolled as a percentage of applications 7.9% / 8.1%
Note 1: Peak was 34051 applications for the graduating class of 2016, BC introduced a mandatory essay for the following class, and applications dropped precipitously (by 9,500). Ann followed BC's lead, with a similar result. But for HC, it was a one-year experiment, not to be discussed further.
Note 2: Ann would need about 2,000 more applications to get HC to 9 percent (enrolled as a percentage of applications). .
SAT 25-75th percentiles V&M 1230 - 1440 / 1260 - 1460
Geographic residence of enrolling freshmen CA 145 / 173 MA 570 / 513
Top 12 cross application schools of admitted BC freshman, class entering fall of 2006 Georgetown, Harvard , Tufts, Boston University, University of Pennsylvania, Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell, Notre Dame, Columbia, NYU, Yale
Top 12 cross application schools of admitted BC freshmen, class entering fall of 2015 Georgetown, Notre Dame, Villanova, Northeastern, Boston University, Cornell, University of Pennsylvania, Brown, Harvard, University of Virginia, NYU, Fordham
Note the rotation of schools, and the academic reputation of schools that dropped, and schools that appeared.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 29, 2017 7:53:11 GMT -5
Top 12 cross application schools of admitted BC freshman, class entering fall of 2006
Georgetown, Harvard , Tufts, Boston University, University of Pennsylvania, Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell, Notre Dame, Columbia, NYU, Yale Top 12 cross application schools of admitted BC freshmen, class entering fall of 2015
Georgetown, Notre Dame, Villanova, Northeastern, Boston University, Cornell, University of Pennsylvania, Brown, Harvard, University of Virginia, NYU, Fordham Note the rotation of schools, and the academic reputation of schools that dropped, and schools that appeared. Very interesting. Any chance we can get a recent cross-application list for HC? I can't seem to find one on line. Would be very useful to those evaluating HC's reputation among high school seniors.
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Post by matunuck on Mar 29, 2017 9:07:20 GMT -5
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 29, 2017 12:27:22 GMT -5
Top 12 cross application schools of admitted BC freshman, class entering fall of 2006
Georgetown, Harvard , Tufts, Boston University, University of Pennsylvania, Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell, Notre Dame, Columbia, NYU, Yale Top 12 cross application schools of admitted BC freshmen, class entering fall of 2015
Georgetown, Notre Dame, Villanova, Northeastern, Boston University, Cornell, University of Pennsylvania, Brown, Harvard, University of Virginia, NYU, Fordham Note the rotation of schools, and the academic reputation of schools that dropped, and schools that appeared. Very interesting. Any chance we can get a recent cross-application list for HC? I can't seem to find one on line. Would be very useful to those evaluating HC's reputation among high school seniors. For BC class of 1999, entering fall 1995 top cross-application schools, by region of applicant residence. New England: College of the Holy Cross, Harvard University, Dartmouth College, Georgetown University, Boston University. Middle States Georgetown University, Cornell University, SUNY-Binghamton, Villanova University, University of Pennsylvania Midwest Northwestern University, University of Notre Dame, Georgetown University, University of Michigan "[BC] Note: Competing institutions are ranked within each region by volume of shared applications submitted by students rated in the top twenty-five percent of Boston College's applicant pool. The Class of 1999 data is the most recent information available. Compiled December 1995." Total applicants from New England were about a third of total applicants. I assume 25% of the pool represents roughly the percentage of applicants accepted. ______________________________ Illustrating how the geographic demographic has changed for BC, BC's entering class, Fall 1981 CA residents 2 MA residents 838 _______________________ The earliest available BC data is for the 1960s. For the class that entered in 1962, there were 4473 applicants, 1099 enrolled. (enrolled 25 percent of applicants) Averages* of the median SATsClass of 1961 471V, 486M Class of 1966 535V, 544M Class of 1975 535 V, 554M * "Averages" is not explained, I assume it means the median of each BC school averaged.
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Post by sarasota on Mar 29, 2017 18:29:55 GMT -5
Surprised to see that Lafayette and Colgate have higher Endowment per Student than HC.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Mar 29, 2017 20:49:33 GMT -5
Surprised to see that Lafayette and Colgate have higher Endowment per Student than HC. Really? Far wealthier demo at those schools and Catholic schools were late to endowment fundraising game. HC has large % of Pell Grant kids. HC does more with less.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 29, 2017 20:59:53 GMT -5
HC still has a pretty solid endowment , maybe #125 or so in total $$$, and I'd bet top 50 or 75 in endowment $$ per student.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 30, 2017 5:35:21 GMT -5
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Post by hcpride on Mar 30, 2017 5:46:03 GMT -5
Surprised to see that Lafayette and Colgate have higher Endowment per Student than HC. Really? Far wealthier demo at those schools and Catholic schools were late to endowment fundraising game. HC has large % of Pell Grant kids. Yes. It does seem that one of several reasons for HC's very low ED number (and subsequent very high ED acceptance percentage) might be somewhat less wealthy demographics (since, excepting athletes, ED applicants tend to skew wealthier). Given the donut hole (middle/upper middle financial aid/tuition squeeze) I wouldn't expect the HC demo to tick upwards. As far as the admissions overlap is concerned, one can't determine if now we overlap more with Stonehill or Providence or Boston College, for example. ( here)
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Post by rickii on Mar 30, 2017 17:02:12 GMT -5
Here's a suggestion. Downgrade the significance of the interview. HC categorizes these four aspects of an application to be Very Important. Rigor of the coursework; GPA, recommendations, and an interview. I looked at other Northeast smaller-sized colleges to see how they characterized the importance of having an interview. Little point in looking at larger schools as they aren't going to interview 10,000 - 15,000 applicants. Bowdoin, Interview considered Amherst, Not considered Williams, Not considered Wesleyan, Considered Colgate, Not considered Bucknell, Not considered Middlebury, Considered Lafayette, Recommendations categorized as important, interview is important Dickinson, Interview important Davidson, Important (interesting that test scores are more important than class rank / GPA) Colby, Interview considered Bates, Considered I stopped there, fairly confidant that very few schools would categorize the interview as Very Important as Holy Cross does. If I'm an applicant, and I don't live in Worcester, how easy would it be to get an interview? According to HC, an interview is very important. so if I don't have one, that would seem to be a strike against me. So I won't apply. As HC is the only school that I found that categorizes both recommendations and an interview as Very Important, that would strike me as this is a school where admittance may turn on 'who you know'. HC site says there's a form to set-up an off-campus interview with an alum.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 31, 2017 6:12:38 GMT -5
Here's a suggestion. Downgrade the significance of the interview. HC categorizes these four aspects of an application to be Very Important. Rigor of the coursework; GPA, recommendations, and an interview. ................. As HC is the only school that I found that categorizes both recommendations and an interview as Very Important, that would strike me as this is a school where admittance may turn on 'who you know'. HC site says there's a form to set-up an off-campus interview with an alum. This is what HC has to say about the interview. For Early DecisionAn on-campus interview is strongly recommended and must be completed by November 18, 2016. Remember to call two weeks in advance to schedule. For Regular DecisionHighly recommended. Call at least two weeks in advance to schedule an on-campus interview, which must be completed by December 16, 2016. Off-campus alumni interview requests must be submitted online by December 1, 2016. Comment: For recruited athletes who go Early Decision, perhaps the coach's contact satisfied the interview spec, but for anyone else going ED, best hustle one's butt to Worcester. This produces a bias toward applicants living in Massachusetts, and nearby in other New England states. And instead of hitting the road drumming up applicants, admissions staff are sitting back in Worcester doing interviews. So I view this emphasis on the interview as a mis-application of admissions resources.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 31, 2017 6:44:56 GMT -5
Bowdoin and Lafayette compared to HC, similar to the Colgate comparison upthread. Bowdoin chosen because standardized tests are optional and it has been climbing higher in the USNews&WR rankings. Lafayette is usually ranked near HC.
Data is from the 2007-2008 / 2016-17 Common Data Sets
Bowdoin Applications 5951 / 6799 Accepted 1120 / 1009 Enrolled 476 / 503 (nice yield 2016-17)
Factor Weights Rigor of high school courses Very Important / Ditto Class Rank Very Important / Ditto GPA Very Important / Ditto Interview Considered / Not considered Recommendations Very Important / Ditto
Early decision Applied 710 / 870 Admitted 211 / 237
Standardized tests 74 percent submitted SATs, 20% ACT / 54% submitted SAT - 44% ACT SAT 25th-75th percentiles V&M 1300 - 1470 / 1290 -1510
Class rank Top tenth 85% / 80% Top quarter 99% / 97% Submitted rankings 40% / 35%
No GPA data ______________________________ Lafayette Applications 6364 / 8123 Accepted 2224 / 2298 Enrolled 592 / 649
Factor Weights Rigor of high school courses Very Important / Ditto Class Rank Important / Ditto GPA Very Important / Ditto Interview Considered / Important Recommendations Important / Ditto
Early decision Applied 418 / 686 Admitted 255 / 330
Standardized tests (Some applicants appear to have submitted both) 95% submitted SATs, 23% ACT / 67% submitted SAT, 47% ACT SAT 25th-75th percentiles V&M 1180 - 1390 / 1200 -1390
Class rank Top tenth 66% / 60% Top quarter 92% / 91% Submitted rankings 43% / 30%
GPA >3.50 48.5% / 59.3% __________________________________ Holy Cross Applications 7066 / 6693 Admitted 2331 / 2574 Enrolled 719 / 765
Factor Weights Rigor of high school courses Very Important / Ditto Class Rank Very Important / Important GPA Very Important / Ditto Interview Important / Very Important Recommendations Important / Very Important
Early decision Applied 469 / 477 Admitted 251 / 347
Standardized tests 48 percent submitted SATs, no ACT / 38% submitted SAT - 23% ACT SAT 25th-75th percentiles V&M 1210 - 1380 / 1220 -1370
Class rank Top tenth 65% / 61% Top quarter 97% / 87% Submitted rankings 43% / 27%
No GPA data
Impressions. While HC applications declined by about 375 between the two years, Lafayette's increased by about 1,350. Lafayette became slightly more competitive vis-a-vis HC
Bowdoin went SAT optional in 1969, yet a high percentage of current-day applicants submit their scores. Hard for me to believe that when you have 80+ percent of your admitted students ranked in the top 10 percent of their high school class, that a significant number of these students also test poorly..
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 31, 2017 8:02:25 GMT -5
Comment: For recruited athletes who go Early Decision, perhaps the coach's contact satisfied the interview spec, but for anyone else going ED, best hustle one's butt to Worcester. This produces a bias toward applicants living in Massachusetts, and nearby in other New England states. And instead of hitting the road drumming up applicants, admissions staff are sitting back in Worcester doing interviews. So I view this emphasis on the interview as a mis-application of admissions resources. I don't think your characterization of the admissions staff sitting in Worcester waiting to do interviews is entirely accurate or fair. There are about 25 - 30 interviewers from the senior class working in the admissions office doing interviews every year. Both my kids applied early decision and both interviewed with seniors. I know you have issue with the schools and areas targeted in Fall admissions tours, and I won't argue with that and the comfort/familiarityfactor in where they choose to visit to recruit, but claiming that the admissions staff is sitting in Worcester waiting to do interviews is piling on a bit.
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Post by matunuck on Mar 31, 2017 8:40:10 GMT -5
Lafayette at one point went SAT optional but after reviewing the results changed back to requiring it. On interviews, PP you have it exactly right. The over emphasis is foolish (and highly arbitrary for that matter), and it does skew a Northeast bias. On admissions, HC should rethink its approach but that won't happen under the current leadership. Hope I'm wrong.
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Post by Chu Chu on Mar 31, 2017 11:30:47 GMT -5
The fact that it might "skew a Northeast bias" is something I had not considered. Perhaps that is right. I am an alumni interviewer here in the NW, and had always that that system mitigated the "skewing".
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Post by hcpride on Mar 31, 2017 11:47:23 GMT -5
Lafayette at one point went SAT optional but after reviewing the results changed back to requiring it. ... Nice 2001 article on Lafayette's original rationale for going "Test Score Optional" and lessons learned on their failed experiment: bernard.pitzer.edu/~hfairchi/SAT/CHEonSAT102601b.html
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 31, 2017 13:46:54 GMT -5
CHC8485, I was not aware they were using interviewers from the senior class, so I retract my comment about admissions staff better prioritizing their time.
But that doesn't lessen my skeptical belief that there is a misplaced emphasis on interviews in the HC admissions process. If someone is applying ED, that suggests his/her heart is set on attending HC. A campus visit is not likely to be the persuasive factor, nor is an almost-mandatory interview with a HC student likely to leave an applicant more convinced about having made the right choice in applying to HC, ED.
I can still recall several questions from my interview with an alumnus of school A. One paired question was what other schools was I applying to, and why did I prefer school A (the alumnus' school) over school B? The other question I remember being asked was what I expected to major in, and what did school A offer with respect to my prospective major that made me apply to school A? Would a senior class interviewer be able to ask similar questions, and engage in a meaningful conversation about same? ________________
With respect to the SAT optional, it would be interesting to examine whether some high school students elect not to apply to an SAT optional school --- particularly one such as HC which provides only limited benchmark data on the academic credentials of an enrolling class -- because they perceive such a school to be less academically rigorous than its peers. That would indeed be a perverse result of SAT optional.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 31, 2017 14:54:41 GMT -5
________________ With respect to the SAT optional, it would be interesting to examine whether some high school students elect not to apply to an SAT optional school --- particularly one such as HC which provides only limited benchmark data on the academic credentials of an enrolling class -- because they perceive such a school to be less academically rigorous than its peers. That would indeed be a perverse result of SAT optional. Here is your answer in a direct quote from Lafayette's Dean of Admissions (in explaining why his school ditched the 'Test Score Optional" strategy): "Perhaps most damaging was the interpretation of some people that Lafayette might not be an academically serious institution if SAT's were optional. The SAT has become such a widely recognized standard that they felt we might have compromised our selectivity. More than a few families of high-ability students told us of their assumption that the absence of an SAT requirement implied limited selectivity." bernard.pitzer.edu/~hfairchi/SAT/CHEonSAT102601b.html(Of course HC's 'Test Score Optional' strategy is a red flag to the academically oriented students nowadays. But so too is the wacky [75%] early-decision admission percentage. I suspect the decline in academic reputation is; however, more of a 'death of a thousands cuts' than just a few specific items.)
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Post by alum on Apr 3, 2017 14:02:01 GMT -5
CHC8485, I was not aware they were using interviewers from the senior class, so I retract my comment about admissions staff better prioritizing their time. But that doesn't lessen my skeptical belief that there is a misplaced emphasis on interviews in the HC admissions process. If someone is applying ED, that suggests his/her heart is set on attending HC. A campus visit is not likely to be the persuasive factor, nor is an almost-mandatory interview with a HC student likely to leave an applicant more convinced about having made the right choice in applying to HC, ED. I can still recall several questions from my interview with an alumnus of school A. One paired question was what other schools was I applying to, and why did I prefer school A (the alumnus' school) over school B? The other question I remember being asked was what I expected to major in, and what did school A offer with respect to my prospective major that made me apply to school A? Would a senior class interviewer be able to ask similar questions, and engage in a meaningful conversation about same? ________________ With respect to the SAT optional, it would be interesting to examine whether some high school students elect not to apply to an SAT optional school --- particularly one such as HC which provides only limited benchmark data on the academic credentials of an enrolling class -- because they perceive such a school to be less academically rigorous than its peers. That would indeed be a perverse result of SAT optional. If there are student interviewers, how can the interview actually count for anything? Students are contributing to an important part of the admissions decision? My kids have interviewed at all sorts of schools and the ones at which they met with students, they have been told the interview was just informational.
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Post by Chu Chu on Apr 4, 2017 9:24:05 GMT -5
Perhaps the interview strategy is also considering the fact that students who visit, also get to see and experience our beautiful campus and all it has to offer. It may be a strategy!
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 4, 2017 9:30:56 GMT -5
Perhaps, but aren't there also off-campus interviews?
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Post by matunuck on Apr 4, 2017 9:50:14 GMT -5
Interviews are fine but the over emphasis we put on it is absurd.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Apr 4, 2017 21:02:58 GMT -5
Interviews are fine but the over emphasis we put on it is absurd. Can you provide the link where it breaks down what percentage of admission is based on the interview? Thanks.
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