|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 24, 2017 18:43:28 GMT -5
I believe royal purple is the official school color. I believe this came to be because it was the color of the Roman Emperors (including Constantine). "The Roman Sumptuary Laws ensured that clothing colors provided information about the status of the person wearing them. The Roman Emperors are identified with the color purple - it was an extremely expensive dye color to produce." If one were looking for an animal mascot, look no further than the purple martin. Two of them on the seal If the mascot is dispatched into retirement, this symbol, IMO, contributed in a major way. I could understand why many women could object to this.
|
|
|
Post by spenser on Oct 24, 2017 18:47:58 GMT -5
And since I’ve probably pissed off the majority of you, while I don’t support dropping the Crusader, I have difficulty comprehending why so many people feel so strongly about this. My connection to HC is not based on some mascot, but in the education that I received, the frindships that I made and how HC helped to make me the person I have become. Whatever.
|
|
|
Post by inhocsigno on Oct 24, 2017 19:05:50 GMT -5
And since I’ve probably pissed off the majority of you, while I don’t support dropping the Crusader, I have difficulty comprehending why so many people feel so strongly about this. My connection to HC is not based on some mascot, but in the education that I received, the frindships that I made and how HC helped to make me the person I have become. Whatever. All joking aside, I think the points you made about your connection to HC being based on "... the education that I received, the friendships that I made and how HC helped to make me the person I have become," is exactly why many of us are strongly opposed to the change. HC marked an extremely important & formative period in my life, and yours based on the above, and presumably everyone else's on here. During that period, we were identified as "Crusaders" of HC. Changing the identification is, I assume, part of the visceral opposition to the change. Because all of us care deeply about the school, the change can be seen as taking something away from those important and trans-formative experiences. My elementary school changed its mascot from the Beavers to the Bobcats after I left. That period is less important in my journey to adulthood, and therefore I do not care as much. However, some would say that I will forever be a Beaver.
|
|
|
Post by ncaam on Oct 24, 2017 19:09:36 GMT -5
And since I’ve probably pissed off the majority of you, while I don’t support dropping the Crusader, I have difficulty comprehending why so many people feel so strongly about this. My connection to HC is not based on some mascot, but in the education that I received, the frindships that I made and how HC helped to make me the person I have become. Whatever. Pissing on me, offends me. The Crusader does not offend me. And I must be naïve but I don't see the caricature offending women. The minute it's taken down I contact HC and tell them to take me off any and all mailing lists. Taking down the Crusader offends me.
|
|
|
Post by ts1970 on Oct 24, 2017 22:49:54 GMT -5
I have to say it offends me as well.
|
|
|
Post by HC92 on Oct 24, 2017 22:54:43 GMT -5
Pretty sure there’s a 1,000 year statute of limitations on being offended by historical acts. Fighting Irish is seriously more offensive in 2017 than the Crusaders.
|
|
|
Post by ts1970 on Oct 24, 2017 23:25:40 GMT -5
No, taking down the Crusader also offends me.
P.S. Our 11 year old cat my wife and I found abandoned and wandering in the woods here years ago wearing a royal purple collar whom I named “Crusader,” “Cru” for short, would be offended as well.
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 25, 2017 6:12:58 GMT -5
And since I’ve probably pissed off the majority of you, while I don’t support dropping the Crusader, I have difficulty comprehending why so many people feel so strongly about this. My connection to HC is not based on some mascot, but in the education that I received, the frindships that I made and how HC helped to make me the person I have become. Whatever. And I must be naïve but I don't see the caricature offending women. I assume you didn't take a course in 20th Century American Literature at Holy Cross, where a discussion of symbols was part of the syllabus. If you're so disposed, google: sword symbol of.
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Oct 25, 2017 6:37:44 GMT -5
Jobes' Dictionary of Symbols might be a better source for any symbols whose meanings (plural) you might wish to check.
|
|
|
Post by ncaam on Oct 25, 2017 7:10:44 GMT -5
But see....”Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.” Freud
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Oct 25, 2017 7:28:41 GMT -5
Freud is not as good as C.G. Jung when it comes to the meaning of symbols. Jung shows how every symbol has a multitude of meanings.
|
|
|
Post by ncaam on Oct 25, 2017 7:45:04 GMT -5
Perhaps, but you get my point. When I see the Crusader sword I see an implement of battle.
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Oct 25, 2017 7:49:26 GMT -5
Here is a short list of symbolic meanings for a sword:
The sword symbolizes power, protection, authority, strength, and courage; metaphysically, it represents the ability to discriminate among options and the penetrating power of the intellect. It is a symbol of knighthood and chivalry.
I think most of these work for the sword carried by HC's Crusader. They can apply equally to men and to women.
|
|
|
Post by WCHC Sports on Oct 25, 2017 10:43:25 GMT -5
And since I’ve probably pissed off the majority of you, while I don’t support dropping the Crusader, I have difficulty comprehending why so many people feel so strongly about this. My connection to HC is not based on some mascot, but in the education that I received, the frindships that I made and how HC helped to make me the person I have become. Whatever. Spenser, if I may speak for some of the others (and I'm sure they will correct me if I am wrong in my assumption), we do not feel as strongly about "Crusader" as much as we do about the reasons WHY, or WHY NOT the mascot is being changed in the first place. The recent trend of revisionist history, searching for reasons to condemn offensive things that haven't yet actually offended anyone, or fabricating evidence/mounting opposition and preemptively bending to those forces is quite frustrating to us. We-- or at least I would rather be associated with a college that could capably handle or avoid any such faux outrage with intelligent thought, considering other viewpoints, and making a sound and assertive decision. Now the tide on this board has fairly rapidly moved towards assuming that this is a "done deal;" that despite the appearance of rational discussion, soliciting feedback from students, alums, and faculty, and a measured approach, the mascot will still be changed. I would much rather the college speak up rather strongly to say that the Crusader has some elements of historical accuracy as far as depicting a knight, but does not advocate for rampant murder and discrimination any more than a Bison that stampedes across the country, an Eagle that kills smaller prey for food, a Black Knight that has much of the same imagery, except more sinister, a Terrier that is literally the derivation of the word Terror or Terrorize, a Raider that could be a murderous pirate and thief, or any other stupid mascot. I would much rather the college speak up and say that WE choose how to appropriate OUR mascot, and not others who are looking for a reason to complain. We have identified the qualities of a Christian identity, striving against all odds, working towards a common cause, and similar values to be worthy of emulation. That is why we choose the term Crusader. HC would really be setting the tone for the argument or discussion rather than stoop down to the yet-unseen levels of the offended and the worried that caused this whole commotion in the first place. The college should say they have bigger fish to fry-- athletic competition, academic rigors, the expansion of the brand, the attraction of a wider-based student body, economic stability, and service in the community-- rather than discuss trivial concerns with a moniker, and THEY should say that. I think that such comments would go a long way to not only quash this, but perhaps assure those who do take offense that we are focused on the here and now, and maybe more importantly, the future of where we go as a college and community. We honor friends and people and communities and countries that historically-speaking we were literally shooting and killing and disparaging. We warred with the British (and Native Americans, and the Spanish, and the Germans, and the Japanese, and the Italians, and the Vietnamese)... will we never move on? Are we still offended by the British for taxation and oppression and killing colonists? Most related to this board weren't even on this continent. PP's family was busy stitching heraldry and collecting taxes of their lands in Saxony or whatever... We aim to elevate and protect the status of people that we literally enslaved. ENSLAVED! And those things took place 10, 20, 50, 100, 200 years ago? Why target this thing, here and now, with over 1,000 years of distance between us and those elements of the affecting aspects of the crusades? Where will we draw the line? THAT is what I am looking for my college to do. To stand up, to be counted, to set the tone, to navigate those murky waters and come out on the other side better for it, and perhaps bringing people to a new and common viewpoint.
|
|
|
Post by nhteamer on Oct 25, 2017 11:24:44 GMT -5
to metaphorically and in good taste GROW A PAIR
|
|
|
Post by beaven302 on Oct 25, 2017 11:44:01 GMT -5
And since I’ve probably pissed off the majority of you, while I don’t support dropping the Crusader, I have difficulty comprehending why so many people feel so strongly about this. My connection to HC is not based on some mascot, but in the education that I received, the frindships that I made and how HC helped to make me the person I have become. Whatever. What irks me no end is not a change of name per se, but the reasoning offered by those who favor it: politically-correct drivel, presentism, and an apparent ignorance of medieval history.
|
|
|
Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 25, 2017 11:58:11 GMT -5
If the mascot is dispatched into retirement, this symbol, IMO, contributed in a major way. I could understand why many women could object to this. Nonsense. We should bring back this symbol and/or the knight on the horse, and trash that cheap looking interlocking HC athletics shield logo.
|
|
|
Post by joe on Oct 25, 2017 12:00:32 GMT -5
And since I’ve probably pissed off the majority of you, while I don’t support dropping the Crusader, I have difficulty comprehending why so many people feel so strongly about this. My connection to HC is not based on some mascot, but in the education that I received, the frindships that I made and how HC helped to make me the person I have become. Whatever. Spenser, if I may speak for some of the others (and I'm sure they will correct me if I am wrong in my assumption), we do not feel as strongly about "Crusader" as much as we do about the reasons WHY, or WHY NOT the mascot is being changed in the first place. The recent trend of revisionist history, searching for reasons to condemn offensive things that haven't yet actually offended anyone, or fabricating evidence/mounting opposition and preemptively bending to those forces is quite frustrating to us. We-- or at least I would rather be associated with a college that could capably handle or avoid any such faux outrage with intelligent thought, considering other viewpoints, and making a sound and assertive decision. Now the tide on this board has fairly rapidly moved towards assuming that this is a "done deal;" that despite the appearance of rational discussion, soliciting feedback from students, alums, and faculty, and a measured approach, the mascot will still be changed. I would much rather the college speak up rather strongly to say that the Crusader has some elements of historical accuracy as far as depicting a knight, but does not advocate for rampant murder and discrimination any more than a Bison that stampedes across the country, an Eagle that kills smaller prey for food, a Black Knight that has much of the same imagery, except more sinister, a Terrier that is literally the derivation of the word Terror or Terrorize, a Raider that could be a murderous pirate and thief, or any other stupid mascot. I would much rather the college speak up and say that WE choose how to appropriate OUR mascot, and not others who are looking for a reason to complain. We have identified the qualities of a Christian identity, striving against all odds, working towards a common cause, and similar values to be worthy of emulation. That is why we choose the term Crusader. HC would really be setting the tone for the argument or discussion rather than stoop down to the yet-unseen levels of the offended and the worried that caused this whole commotion in the first place. The college should say they have bigger fish to fry-- athletic competition, academic rigors, the expansion of the brand, the attraction of a wider-based student body, economic stability, and service in the community-- rather than discuss trivial concerns with a moniker, and THEY should say that. I think that such comments would go a long way to not only quash this, but perhaps assure those who do take offense that we are focused on the here and now, and maybe more importantly, the future of where we go as a college and community. We honor friends and people and communities and countries that historically-speaking we were literally shooting and killing and disparaging. We warred with the British (and Native Americans, and the Spanish, and the Germans, and the Japanese, and the Italians, and the Vietnamese)... will we never move on? Are we still offended by the British for taxation and oppression and killing colonists? Most related to this board weren't even on this continent. PP's family was busy stitching heraldry and collecting taxes of their lands in Saxony or whatever... We aim to elevate and protect the status of people that we literally enslaved. ENSLAVED! And those things took place 10, 20, 50, 100, 200 years ago? Why target this thing, here and now, with over 1,000 years of distance between us and those elements of the affecting aspects of the crusades? Where will we draw the line? THAT is what I am looking for my college to do. To stand up, to be counted, to set the tone, to navigate those murky waters and come out on the other side better for it, and perhaps bringing people to a new and common viewpoint. I'm with this guy.
Are you planning to read this at the meeting in November?
|
|
|
Post by ncaam on Oct 25, 2017 12:00:50 GMT -5
More would be offended by the cross than the sword.
|
|
|
Post by ncaam on Oct 25, 2017 12:01:07 GMT -5
More would be offended by the cross than the sword.
|
|
|
Post by WCHC Sports on Oct 25, 2017 12:20:15 GMT -5
I'm with this guy.
Are you planning to read this at the meeting in November?
I haven't been asked to speak, and I haven't given much more than the token donation to the school over the past 9 years so I don't think I will be anytime soon. I am not certain that I wouldn't just be shouting at the sky to keep it from raining anyway. But I do appreciate the compliment.
|
|
|
Post by crusader12 on Oct 25, 2017 12:24:38 GMT -5
And I must be naïve but I don't see the caricature offending women. I assume you didn't take a course in 20th Century American Literature at Holy Cross, where a discussion of symbols was part of the syllabus. If you're so disposed, google: sword symbol of. Give me a break!
|
|
|
Post by cruskater31 on Oct 25, 2017 19:18:20 GMT -5
And I must be naïve but I don't see the caricature offending women. I assume you didn't take a course in 20th Century American Literature at Holy Cross, where a discussion of symbols was part of the syllabus. If you're so disposed, google: sword symbol of. Or perhaps Joanne Pierce's Sacraments or Liturgy courses in Religious Studies about the meaning of signs and symbols. Maybe a history course about the Crusades, particularly the role of later Crusaders in the Battle of Lepanto. If it were not for the Crusaders and the rosary intercession of the navy crew, Western Europe would have been sacked and educational institutions shuttered by pillagers. We would not be having this conversation. Period.
|
|
|
Post by spenser on Oct 25, 2017 19:55:52 GMT -5
Spenser, if I may speak for some of the others (and I'm sure they will correct me if I am wrong in my assumption), we do not feel as strongly about "Crusader" as much as we do about the reasons WHY, or WHY NOT the mascot is being changed in the first place. The recent trend of revisionist history, searching for reasons to condemn offensive things that haven't yet actually offended anyone, or fabricating evidence/mounting opposition and preemptively bending to those forces is quite frustrating to us. We-- or at least I would rather be associated with a college that could capably handle or avoid any such faux outrage with intelligent thought, considering other viewpoints, and making a sound and assertive decision. Now the tide on this board has fairly rapidly moved towards assuming that this is a "done deal;" that despite the appearance of rational discussion, soliciting feedback from students, alums, and faculty, and a measured approach, the mascot will still be changed. I would much rather the college speak up rather strongly to say that the Crusader has some elements of historical accuracy as far as depicting a knight, but does not advocate for rampant murder and discrimination any more than a Bison that stampedes across the country, an Eagle that kills smaller prey for food, a Black Knight that has much of the same imagery, except more sinister, a Terrier that is literally the derivation of the word Terror or Terrorize, a Raider that could be a murderous pirate and thief, or any other stupid mascot. I would much rather the college speak up and say that WE choose how to appropriate OUR mascot, and not others who are looking for a reason to complain. We have identified the qualities of a Christian identity, striving against all odds, working towards a common cause, and similar values to be worthy of emulation. That is why we choose the term Crusader. HC would really be setting the tone for the argument or discussion rather than stoop down to the yet-unseen levels of the offended and the worried that caused this whole commotion in the first place. The college should say they have bigger fish to fry-- athletic competition, academic rigors, the expansion of the brand, the attraction of a wider-based student body, economic stability, and service in the community-- rather than discuss trivial concerns with a moniker, and THEY should say that. I think that such comments would go a long way to not only quash this, but perhaps assure those who do take offense that we are focused on the here and now, and maybe more importantly, the future of where we go as a college and community. We honor friends and people and communities and countries that historically-speaking we were literally shooting and killing and disparaging. We warred with the British (and Native Americans, and the Spanish, and the Germans, and the Japanese, and the Italians, and the Vietnamese)... will we never move on? Are we still offended by the British for taxation and oppression and killing colonists? Most related to this board weren't even on this continent. PP's family was busy stitching heraldry and collecting taxes of their lands in Saxony or whatever... We aim to elevate and protect the status of people that we literally enslaved. ENSLAVED! And those things took place 10, 20, 50, 100, 200 years ago? Why target this thing, here and now, with over 1,000 years of distance between us and those elements of the affecting aspects of the crusades? Where will we draw the line? THAT is what I am looking for my college to do. To stand up, to be counted, to set the tone, to navigate those murky waters and come out on the other side better for it, and perhaps bringing people to a new and common viewpoint. I'm with this guy.
Are you planning to read this at the meeting in November?
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Oct 26, 2017 6:40:54 GMT -5
I received this from a Classmate who I don't believe is a poster on Crossports but thought this worth sharing:
|
|