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Post by hc87 on Dec 30, 2017 16:34:22 GMT -5
I know, I know....it's time to look forward not past etc. Indulge me, just saw an an article posted on an AnyGivenSaturday, thread which was basically on highest rated FCS teams evah.
I'd be curious where you guys think HC ended up in Sagarin's ratings in 1987 (both FBS and FCS, 1-A and 1-AA then)? Hint: I was a little surprised how high it was.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 30, 2017 16:39:01 GMT -5
18
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Post by hc87 on Dec 30, 2017 16:48:51 GMT -5
Very close...nice call hoops
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Post by hc87 on Dec 30, 2017 17:02:43 GMT -5
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 30, 2017 17:09:57 GMT -5
Back in 1987, were you lamenting that HC football was a ghost of its former self?
Thirty years earlier, the HC football coach had come from being head coach at a Big 10 school. HC played even-up with the 'big boys' and rostered players who went on to win fame and laurels in the NFL Even had a game or two broadcast on the telly as the national game of the week. HC was relevant in football nationally 30 years before you matriculated, but it was no longer relevant in 1987. So did you piss and moan, bitch and complain, and rend your garments in anguish when you were on Mt St James, and looked back forlornly at the once-upon-a-time prominence of HC football?
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Post by hc87 on Dec 30, 2017 18:32:04 GMT -5
Wow....Happy New Year to you too pp
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Post by hcpride on Dec 30, 2017 19:01:47 GMT -5
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Post by hc87 on Dec 30, 2017 19:19:25 GMT -5
'83 team was very good...'87 team was bettah overall imo.
While I was lamenting where we were in basketball in 1987 pp and oft said so on WCHC then, the FCS is where HC football belongs today (and did in 1987).
I was just very surprised at how high Sagarin had us then....I realize it's a computer rating and we were far from the 17th best team in the country then as well.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 30, 2017 20:07:37 GMT -5
The ‘66 team was better than both 83 or 87, considering the opposition. 6-3-1. With wins over BC and breaking Dartmouth's nation leading win streak.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 30, 2017 20:28:10 GMT -5
The ‘67 team was better than both 83 or 87, considering the opposition. 6-3-1. With wins over BC and breaking Dartmouth's nation leading win streak. Basically a "bar argument" ala who was bettah Mickey Mantle or Ken Griffey Jr? etc i.e we'll never know....the '66 HC team had a nice year but I wouldn't be so quick to say they were better than the '87 team. The 87 team beat Army (handily despite the final score...it was 34-10 late), the '66 team was shutout by Army. The '66 team also tied Colgate and lost to an average at best Buffalo 35-3. I'd go with the 87 team....admittedly being biased.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 30, 2017 21:55:09 GMT -5
The 87 team had no win comparable to either the BC or Dartmouth wins (and Mays was Better than both Mantle and Griffey, and this comes from a Brooklyn Dodger fan)
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Post by hc87 on Dec 30, 2017 22:12:05 GMT -5
For argument's sake....any win ovah BC is to be savored obviously but that 1966 Eagle team really wasn't that good. They were 4-6 with their 4 W's coming against VMI, Buffalo, William&Mary and UMass...all relatively close wins too...they also lost to Ohio U at home.
The '87 team had the misfortune of not having anyone on their schedule to really challenge them that year...but they had solid, blowout wins ovah Army, William&Mary and UMass as well as the usual Ivy and Patriot foes.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 30, 2017 22:29:24 GMT -5
‘87 Army team was 5-6. the ‘66 army team that beat us 14-0 had a record of 8-2 Dartmouth finished 7-2 ‘66 BC and Dartmouth wins were better than any of the ‘87 wins. You are right about the misfortune of your 87 team haVing little comp, but you cannot penalize the 66 team for having a tougher sched
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Post by hc87 on Dec 30, 2017 22:44:44 GMT -5
The '66 schedule was better but it really wasn't that much tougher than the 1987 one. I would say the only really tough opponent in 1966 was Syracuse. BC was really not that good, Rutgers in 1966 was still playing the likes of Lafayette and Bucknell back then...outside of that, the schedules were pretty comparable. Dartmouth was much better than they were in 1987 granted, but the fact remains that the 1987team steam-rolled everyone on the schedule...the '66 team lost badly to an average Buffalo team and tied Colgate.
My opinion, the 1987 was better overall. I would argue that the 1987 team was probably the best HC football team since some of the Eddie Anderson teams of the late 1950s/early 1960s.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 30, 2017 22:50:39 GMT -5
The ‘66 Ivy League was much better than the 87 Ivy League Colgate finished 8-1-1 Again, for the third time, the Dartmouth and BC wins, even if BC was not that good, were better than any 87 win. Irrefutable.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 30, 2017 23:05:06 GMT -5
Again, doing this as a devil's advocate/in good fun....the '66 team was good no doubt but the 1987 team in general was better. The '66 team beat an average 1-A team in a close game (thanks to Tom Kelly), the '87 team blew out an average 1-A team. The '66 team beat Dartmouth granted but it wasn't a vintage Dartmouth team from that era. They lost to an average Buffalo team 35-3...you have to say that's a bad loss. The '87 team doesn't have any blemishes like that.
We are both wedded to teams from our era on the Hill but I have to go with an 11-0 team that wasn't even challenged that year.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 30, 2017 23:16:28 GMT -5
Buffalo was a bad loss, but the 87 schedule did not in general face opponents as difficult as 66. Dartmouth may not have been vintage, but they were 7-2 in a far more difficult Ivy League than that in 87 The Pl, esp without scholarships, was weak. Lentz and Kimener also helped Kell
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 30, 2017 23:26:24 GMT -5
I love the debate on the best HC team, but Mickey Mantle is the correct answer on best ballplayer
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Post by hchoops on Dec 30, 2017 23:33:00 GMT -5
Casey Stengel did not choose Mantle on his all yankee team Mantle possibly could have been the best. Mays was the best.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 31, 2017 7:11:07 GMT -5
Great back and forth on 6-3-1 1966 team and 11-0 1987 team. Not much to add since the wide disparity in record means a '66er has to point to strength of schedule. To explain the 3 losses and one tie. (It is also true that the '66 one-point win over the 2nd place Ivy team [Dartmouth] and win over the relatively so-so BC team are good wins). If the question is who was the more successful v their scheduled opponents, the answer is obvious. If the question is who was 'better' between the two, the disparities in eras/competition make that a more nuanced question (FWIW 2 '66ers were eventually drafted 9th and 16th rounds and 3 87ers 9th, 10th and 11th rounds) My own comparison is between the very talented 9-2-1 1983 Squad (lost only to Flutie's 19th -ranked BC and Western Carolina [by 7]; and tied Harvard) and the excellent 11-0 1987 squad. Although the '87 team played a few weaker Patriot types they did trounce their opponents (including - for purposes of this comparison - a very good [8-2] Harvard team 41-6). I'm starting to bend towards the 1987 team (given Harvard as a fairly realistic common opponent after discounting 83's BC and Western Carolina losses). Both teams did have 3 players eventually drafted into the NFL. (This being said I would not bet against the '83 team in a head-to-head). www.goholycross.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=917325&SPID=157213&DB_OEM_ID=33100&ATCLID=210200775
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Post by timholycross on Dec 31, 2017 9:22:57 GMT -5
Unfortunately the 1983 team was pretty much (except for a quick, ineffective appearance) without Gill Fenerty down the stretch....with him they beat Harvard and W Carolina, I'm pretty sure.
One thing with Duffner...you can knock his era because of the schedule they played but it takes a hell of a coaching job to win nearly every game you should win. Only slip-ups I can remember were Lafayette in 1988 and the tie with UMass in 1990. Other teams came close but his teams always found a way to win. Very easy to get ambushed on a given week...not like they weren't wearing a bulls-eye after some of the poundings they gave teams. Why, one team, Penn, rubbed it in with great enjoyment a good 10 years after Duffner was gone.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 31, 2017 12:49:46 GMT -5
1958 Syracuse football team
Beat BC 24-14 Beat Cornell 55-0 Beat Nebraska 38-0 Beat Penn State 14-6 Beat Pitt 16-13 Beat Boston U 42-0 Beat Colgate 47-0 Beat West Virginia 15-12 Lost to #5 Oklahoma (Orange Bowl) 6-21 (Oklahoma had only one loss that year, to Texas at the Cotton Bowl stadium in Dallas 14-15)
Oh, and ah.........
Syracuse also lost to some school in Woostah 13-14
That, forum posters, is football relevance.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 31, 2017 13:02:10 GMT -5
1958 Syracuse football team Beat BC 24-14 Beat Cornell 55-0 Beat Nebraska 38-0 Beat Penn State 14-6 Beat Pitt 16-13 Beat Boston U 42-0 Beat Colgate 47-0 Beat West Virginia 15-12 Lost to #5 Oklahoma (Orange Bowl) 6-21 (Oklahoma had only one loss that year, to Texas at the Cotton Bowl stadium in Dallas 14-15) Oh, and ah......... Syracuse also lost to some school in Woostah 13-14 That, forum posters, is football relevance. Great year for Syracuse (9th in the country, final AP poll). ..but the next year they were absolutely AWESOME!
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Post by Chu Chu on Dec 31, 2017 13:05:31 GMT -5
And not only that, it was the second year in a row that Holy Cross had beaten the Orange. In fact, their loss to Holy Cross in 1958 was the last game they lost before becoming undeafeated National Champions in 1959!
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Post by hcpride on Dec 31, 2017 13:47:56 GMT -5
The ‘66 team was better than both 83 or 87, considering the opposition. 6-3-1. With wins over BC and breaking Dartmouth's nation leading win streak. Playing devil's advocate on the very good 1966 team: Beating Dartmouth 7-6 was a good win. Let's not go overboard, their 'nation's leading' win streak - against merely OK competition - was snapped at just 11 games and they finished in 2nd place in the Ivy League in 1966. Beating BC is always good, that particular year they were not very good (4 wins and 6 losses). Beating UMass, UConn, Rutgers, and BU not particularly impressive in mid 60's Losses to Army and Syracuse OK Loss to Buffalo Not Good Tie to Colgate (When I say Dartmouth's competition during their streak was merely OK I mean they did not play any Northeast powers such as Army, Boston College, or Syracuse [as Holy Cross routinely did] during the streak. Mostly Ivies and I don't think Ivy League was particularly good mid-60s.)
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