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Post by sarasota on Jun 9, 2016 11:14:40 GMT -5
PP- Beg to differ. It is a zero sum game. If a town's construction budget or a school's athletic budget is a finite amount, then the monies expended to comply with ADA is the amount of money that cannot be spent elsewhere.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 10, 2016 5:10:16 GMT -5
PP- Beg to differ. It is a zero sum game. If a town's construction budget or a school's athletic budget is a finite amount, then the monies expended to comply with ADA is the amount of money that cannot be spent elsewhere. You and I have a different definition of zero sum. If it costs $20 million to bring Fitton into ADA compliance, and the 'beneficiaries' are 100 fans a game who pay $20 a ticket, it would take 10,000 games before it was zero sum (using my definition) (and that's without amortization of the cost.)
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Post by alum on Jun 10, 2016 6:17:08 GMT -5
Here is Nate Pine's reply to my message above: Hello Mike, I will take your suggestions into consideration. You do make some valid points. Rest assured, I will continue to upgrade and improve all of our athletics facilities as resources allow. To that end, if you would like to make a gift to the Crusader Athletic Fund to support our efforts I would welcome you to do so online through our website www.goholycross.com. The cost of the lights or the Fieldturf is not what is holding us back (though Fieldturf does present some significant problems with the water table and drainage at that location). Those investments would however trigger significant other costs required to bring the entire stadium up to current ADA standards. Improvements of the nature you reference to Fitton Field would also require an additional tens-of-millions of dollars in ADA upgrades and will have to be part of a campus master plan. As you are undoubtedly aware, we are currently underway with a $95M athletic facility improvement project at the Hart Center. Completion on that project is expected to be in the spring of 2018. In the meantime, we will have to continue to do smaller projects to make Fitton Field and our other athletics facilities the best environments for our student-athletes and fans that we can. Go 'Saders! Nathan Pine Director of Athletics College of the Holy Cross Nate Pine has shown in many ways that he is a class guy. He is at the PL AD's Conference this week. For him to take the time to reply to a wiseguy alum shows him again to be a class guy. I don't purport to be an expert on the ADA as it applies to stadiums, but I think that NP is overstating the College's potential expense in ADA compliance if it commences alterations to Fitton Field and is also failing to think "outside of the box." It would seem to me that the principal ADA expenses would be barrier removal to the seats and bathrooms, increased number of areas for wheelchairs, and access to the Press Box. It is hard for me to believe that this would cost tens of millions of dollars. I have never been in the press box, but it is my understanding that it is narrow, unsuited for current use, and difficult to alter for wheelchair access. Given attendance trends, I would suggest that the old press box be abandoned and that a new combination press box/President's box be built below it taking out seats on the visitors side of the field which, given our relatively low attendance, would not be a problem. It would require an elevator but would be a much better place for the President to entertain Trustees and donors and would be accessible when built. Wheelchair seating, I believe, must number one half of one percent of the total number of seats over 5000 plus 36. We ought to reduce the seating to 20,000 which would require about 110 spots. They could be spread between 6 different locations throughout the stadium by building platforms in the low bleachers equipped with lifts. Ramping to the stands is not terribly expensive but accessible bathrooms would have to be built. I know that I am missing things here, but I just want to make the point that if there is money to work on the stadium, the ADA costs are not insurmountable and, at least with regard to the press box, would be subsumed into work the College ought to do anyway. Oh, and another thing, you know why you do ADA accessiblity work? Because it is the right thing to do.
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Post by sarasota on Jun 10, 2016 6:45:47 GMT -5
alum- Cumbayah. (And there already is an elevator to the visitors press box.)
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Post by alum on Jun 10, 2016 7:08:57 GMT -5
alum- Cumbayah. (And there already is an elevator to the visitors press box.) Glad to hear there is an elevator. I am under the impression from reading here that the boxes are substandard. My point is that if the College were to do work on the stadium, improvements in the boxes would be contemplated and that those upgrades would create an accessible space anyway so that we should not have to worry about the ADA cost. As to Kumbyaya, a little reading for you. www.npr.org/2012/01/13/145059502/when-did-kumbaya-become-such-a-bad-thing
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 10, 2016 7:28:40 GMT -5
This article, from 2007, regarding ADA at the Big House, is useful reading. www.athleticbusiness.com/Stadium-Arena/michigan-stadium-is-at-the-center-of-pending-ada-litigation.htmlMy understanding is that HC, at Fitton, would need to remove the existing seats, create a new seating configuration, and fashion some sort of accessible ramps to the new seats. Based on the article, the number of wheelchair seats at Fitton would be 230 (at 1 percent of seating) and 115 (at 0.5 percent of capacity). The seats must be dispersed throughout the seating area, so no putting them all in the east stands.
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Post by CHC8485 on Jun 10, 2016 7:37:29 GMT -5
When you consider that ADA applies to more than people in wheelchairs, the ADA compliance fixes run deeper than an elevator to a press box and spaces for 110 wheelchairs - which also need a means to be a accessed by wheelchair. A few things jump immediately to my mind that impact the entire stadium, which may have current building code compliance in addition to the ADA compliance element so could have been lumped into Nate Pine's estimate. - Widening the aisle at the bottom of the stands. Two able bodied people have a hard time passing one another in that space, much less a wheelchair.
- Handrails on the stairways between the seating, which I think also means wider stairway aisles.
- Consistent rise of the stairs within the stadium. You can sit in the stadium and watch people trip where the steps go from a fairly standard 7 or 8 inch rise, to about a 4 inch rise and then into a 10 inch rise. I don't know wht that had to be done that way with the 1986 renovation, but if they didn't fix it then, you can be sure it wasn't a simple fix.
- Leveling the "concourse" beneath the stands.
I imagine there are more, but any renovation is never as simple as you think.
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 10, 2016 8:18:58 GMT -5
It is a shame that any attempt to improve the facility (including improvements that could benefit those with disabilities) mandates improvements in other areas that are often only marginal improvements but come with a high price tag. It was nice to hear that HC has future plans to address the many stadium needs. It was not so great hearing that it may be over decade before anything begins to take shape.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 10, 2016 8:20:54 GMT -5
C'mon you naysayers. This can all be fixed by using common sense . . . . and a $20 million alumnus donation.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Jun 10, 2016 17:21:20 GMT -5
C'mon you naysayers. This can all be fixed by using common sense . . . . and a $20 million alumnus donation I just bought a Mega Millions ticket, that if I win ... A funny story about a donation being used for Fitton Field. In the "Man to See", the biography of EBW, by Evan Thomas, on page 380,there is a story about EBW and Marvin Davis, who was Chairman of Davis Petroleum, 20th Century Fox, Pebble Beach Corp, Aspen Skiing. "Davis gratefully showered gifts on Williams: a pair of silk pajamas, a stretch limousine, even $300,000 toward refurbishing the football stadium at Holy Cross - a school that Davis, a Jewish graduate of NYU, had never seen." Fr. Brooks use to joke that the donation went to installing the elevator to the President's box at Fitton Field. If you have not read the book, you are missing a gem. A must read for all 'Saders.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 10, 2016 18:25:09 GMT -5
I've read the book---an excellent read
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jun 10, 2016 19:40:48 GMT -5
When you consider that ADA applies to more than people in wheelchairs, the ADA compliance fixes run deeper than an elevator to a press box and spaces for 110 wheelchairs - which also need a means to be a accessed by wheelchair. A few things jump immediately to my mind that impact the entire stadium, which may have current building code compliance in addition to the ADA compliance element so could have been lumped into Nate Pine's estimate. - Widening the aisle at the bottom of the stands. Two able bodied people have a hard time passing one another in that space, much less a wheelchair.
- Handrails on the stairways between the seating, which I think also means wider stairway aisles.
- Consistent rise of the stairs within the stadium. You can sit in the stadium and watch people trip where the steps go from a fairly standard 7 or 8 inch rise, to about a 4 inch rise and then into a 10 inch rise. I don't know wht that had to be done that way with the 1986 renovation, but if they didn't fix it then, you can be sure it wasn't a simple fix.
- Leveling the "concourse" beneath the stands.
I imagine there are more, but any renovation is never as simple as you think. Now I have never been called nimble, but I have tripped on those stadium stairs (and have spent time entertaining myself watching kids trip as they misstep while their eyes are glued to their phones). I've also stumbled on the uneven concourse; and yes, I almost fell coming out of the men's room. Fitton's a great place to actually watch a game; lots of improvements needed in other areas.
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jstew
Sophomore
Posts: 28
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Post by jstew on Jun 14, 2016 8:06:41 GMT -5
Let's stick with the natural grass, the school can afford it.
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Post by sarasota on Jul 11, 2016 22:58:46 GMT -5
Death by Over-Regulation. Local people and institutions should be able to do what they want to do and what they can afford to do without forcing tax payers to bank roll every do-good statute/regulation that Congress/Federal Agencies succumb to the pressure of advocacy groups. I'll never forget the day Congress passed the ADA with folks in wheelchairs jamming the aisles.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jul 12, 2016 8:04:00 GMT -5
I believe this photo is of the new grass turf.
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Post by rickii on Jul 12, 2016 9:31:30 GMT -5
I believe this photo is of the new grass turf. The large white all-weather tent is gone from the open endzone. Has the local pro baseball season ended or maybe the hospitality tent was just for the July 4th weekend games ? Also possible the photo is from pre holiday weekend.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jul 12, 2016 10:41:09 GMT -5
I like this new concept of dispensing with yard lines and sidelines to confuse our opponents. This could be a big home field advantage after we get used to it.
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Post by deep Purple on Jul 12, 2016 11:11:08 GMT -5
JMO - I go to almost every game and the only issue I see with Fitton is antiquated restrooms and concessions. They didn't have pretzels last year and that bothered me.
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Post by clmetsfan on Jul 12, 2016 11:16:40 GMT -5
alum- Cumbayah. (And there already is an elevator to the visitors press box.) Glad to hear there is an elevator. I am under the impression from reading here that the boxes are substandard. My point is that if the College were to do work on the stadium, improvements in the boxes would be contemplated and that those upgrades would create an accessible space anyway so that we should not have to worry about the ADA cost. As to Kumbyaya, a little reading for you. www.npr.org/2012/01/13/145059502/when-did-kumbaya-become-such-a-bad-thingI called HC football games for three years. The Fitton press box is an absolute joke. I'm surprised it passes general inspection codes, let alone ADA requirements. It's basically a plywood box with two narrow rows of seating that shakes and rattles when any gust of wind blows over 15 MPH.
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Post by deep Purple on Jul 12, 2016 12:47:51 GMT -5
What's Pine's e-mail? I need to find out why they got rid of pretzels.
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Post by rickii on Jul 12, 2016 13:13:28 GMT -5
Glad to hear there is an elevator. I am under the impression from reading here that the boxes are substandard. My point is that if the College were to do work on the stadium, improvements in the boxes would be contemplated and that those upgrades would create an accessible space anyway so that we should not have to worry about the ADA cost. As to Kumbyaya, a little reading for you. www.npr.org/2012/01/13/145059502/when-did-kumbaya-become-such-a-bad-thingI called HC football games for three years. The Fitton press box is an absolute joke. I'm surprised it passes general inspection codes, let alone ADA requirements. It's basically a plywood box with two narrow rows of seating that shakes and rattles when any gust of wind blows over 15 MPH. AIR, the only photo I've ever seen inside any Fitton press box was one of Curt Gowdy with Gregg Burke pre-1986 doing TV play by play for ABC in the old wooden box that once was atop the former wood visitors grandstand. Has anyone ever seen any interior pics of the post-1986 so-called Brooks Presidential Suite ( with elevator ) on the visitors side....OR any interior pics of the joke of a 'press box' on the home side ?
I swear I'll ralph if a complete overhaul/replacement of either or both of these huts is prohibitive due to triggering ADA compliance regs. even if a new elevator is installed on the home side !
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Post by timholycross on Jul 12, 2016 21:51:08 GMT -5
I like this new concept of dispensing with yard lines and sidelines to confuse our opponents. This could be a big home field advantage after we get used to it. The press guide the first year HC was in the Patriot League showed a photo of each PL venue. Colgate sent them a picture of Andy Rooney Stadium that consisted of the press box only, which wasn't even up to Fitton (sub) standards. And Lehigh's stadium picture was taken after some (probably Lafayette-inspired) prank which had each 10 yard stripe marked with "50". Right then and there I knew we hadn't joined the big leagues. Yes, I know and am happy that in each case those two venues don't exist any more (technically Colgate's does but both home and visitor stands were torn down and rebuilt, Field Turf, lights, etc.). Getting back to the $300,000 contribution, what was the total tab back in 85-86 for what was done?
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Post by rickii on Jul 13, 2016 11:24:39 GMT -5
Before someone jumps ya tim, it's Andy Kerr Stadium....
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Post by timholycross on Jul 13, 2016 11:46:17 GMT -5
My little joke.
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Post by JRGNYR on Jul 13, 2016 11:54:11 GMT -5
The Lehigh stadium picture used would've been for Taylor. I believe Lehigh moved into Goodman Stadium for football in the neighborhood of '88 or '89.
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