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Post by crusader12 on Aug 22, 2018 11:37:55 GMT -5
Doesn’t GPS take traffic into consideration ? Not all apps. And Uber drivers are generally clueless without google....
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 22, 2018 13:27:02 GMT -5
Mine do. But sometimes they are "off" or delayed (think "accidents"). However, I believe for scheduled back-ups (rush hour, for example), they will normally reflect that in the directions.
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 22, 2018 13:34:48 GMT -5
Fully understand your ire and strong desire that this turns out to be a nightmare for Worcester & Massachusetts.
You are on record that this will be a disaster, at least economically, for the locals. Watched channel 10 sports (NBC Providence) and I think your posts accurately reflect the disappointment, anger and sense of betrayal that the Pawtucket folks feel. As a RI resident but with ancestral roots in Worcester, I am pretty neutral where the team ended up.
Now, consider letting this play out for at least a couple of years and then you can smile and post "I told you so" when/if this comes to pass.
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Post by bfoley82 on Aug 22, 2018 13:54:59 GMT -5
Fully understand your ire and strong desire that this turns out to be a nightmare for Worcester & Massachusetts. You are on record that this will be a disaster, at least economically, for the locals. Watched channel 10 sports (NBC Providence) and I think your posts accurately reflect the disappointment, anger and sense of betrayal that the Pawtucket folks feel. As a RI resident but with ancestral roots in Worcester, I am pretty neutral where the team ended up. Now, consider letting this play out for at least a couple of years and then you can smile and post "I told you so" when/if this comes to past. I have lived in this entire area my entire life and believe this is a terrible deal for the city and don't believe any city should be paying for a professional team as the economics have never actually worked out. A good way to compare Worcester's new team is to the Lowell market for the Spinners as they never had a minor league team before. They are currently in their 20th season in Lowell and have an average attendance of 3,457 out of 5,030 seat stadium which is 68 percent capacity. In Worcester's new 10k seat stadium, that is a 6800 attendance but Worcester will be playing in worse weather in April and May so they will likely get smaller numbers.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Aug 22, 2018 14:56:26 GMT -5
A good way to compare Worcester's new team is to the Lowell market for the Spinners as they never had a minor league team before. They are currently in their 20th season in Lowell and have an average attendance of 3,457 out of 5,030 seat stadium which is 68 percent capacity. In Worcester's new 10k seat stadium, that is a 6800 attendance but Worcester will be playing in worse weather in April and May so they will likely get smaller numbers. 1. The NY-Penn League is not comparable to the International League in terms of product or fan interest. The former's fourteen teams draw about 2,700 per game on average (Lowell ranks third), while the IL averages 6,600. Just because Lowell only reaches 68% capacity doesn't mean Worcester will - no logic to that reasoning. Nor is there any logic to the suggestion that 68% isn't good enough.
2. As you note, the Spinners have been in business for 20 years. So apparently, they are making a go of it on 68% capacity. Parks do not have to sell out for teams to be financially successful.
3. IL franchises in the Northeast are all attendance-challenged in the spring, none more so than Buffalo, where seven of the twelve homes games had to be postponed due to weather this April. In the five games that were played, the Bison averaged about 6,000 per game, and are averaging just under 7,800 for the season in Coca-Cola Field, which has a capacity of 17,000. Buffalo has had minor league teams since 1877, and has been in the IL for twenty years. In 2016, Forbes listed the franchise as the 15th most valuable in all of minor league baseball, when over 50% of the seats were, as usual, empty.
As for the contention that "the economics have never actually worked out," there aren't a lot of "nevers" in this world, and I'm pretty sure you haven't examined this issue extensively yourself. You, Phreek, rf1, and others who are so convinced that this is a losing proposition will have to hope that somebody who agrees with you will show up at the City Council next Tuesday with actual hard, empirical data (e.g., "City X built a park, borrowing X $ of public money, causing property tax rates to increase by Z%") to make that case.
This may not be a good idea financially. But facts, not fear-mongering, will be required to persuade people of that.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Aug 22, 2018 15:00:39 GMT -5
I find it very interesting that there is an anger displayed by certain posters on this board that Worcester won the rights to the Red Sox AAA franchise. At the same time, if a franchise leaves the city, for whatever reason, there is happiness and satisfaction from certain posters. I know there is an overall negative attitude towards Worcester from Holy Cross students and alumni, as there is in general. At a certain point people like me get tired of defending the city I live in and just need to learn to ignore the negativity. I think this project will succeed and all the naysayers will be proven wrong. The citizens of this city will no longer have to look at two blighted properties near our downtown and we will have access to a great athletic venue in our city. No longer will we have to drive an hour to see minor league baseball as some people think Worcester residents should have to do. From the time the subject was brought up the comments started with negativity and disbelief that the team would actually move to Worcester. Now, the announcement has been made there is anger they are moving to this city. The true feelings of people are exposed. I know it is the wish of some people to magically transport the Holy Cross campus to Boston or New York City or Bergin County. That ain’t happening, so perhaps some people need to learn to appreciate where your campus has a home.
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Post by alum on Aug 22, 2018 15:15:36 GMT -5
Here are the IL attendance records for this year: www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=l_att&lid=117PawSox, with all of the controversy about the move and playing in a second-rate ballpark have averaged 5900. Yard Goats, a AA team in a brand new park, have averaged 5800. I have to think that, properly marketed and due to the novelty of a new team, that a Red Sox AAA team in Worcester ought to do more than 7000 in the first season. The challenge is to keep it up after season 1. I would trust Larry Lucchino in that regard. Despite my rosy forecast, I do not believe that this stadium can pay for itself even with associated development. The only possible economic justification for a stadium like the one built in Hartford or the one proposed in Worcester is that it improves the quality of life thereby attracting and keeping good companies and good jobs. I would like someone to prove to me that this really works. We might also want to talk about whose quality of life is being improved. Poorer and lower-middle-class Worcester and Hartford taxpayers will be paying for the entertainment of residents of Shrewsbury and Glastonbury respectively. I have been to Dunkin Donuts Park a couple of times each year and would be more inclined to go to Worcester than Pawtucket but that doesn't mean it's a goo deal.
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Post by rgs318 on Aug 22, 2018 15:31:05 GMT -5
Waze does give you real time reports, but not all GPS models do.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 22, 2018 20:30:17 GMT -5
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Post by bfoley82 on Aug 22, 2018 22:09:40 GMT -5
Here are the IL attendance records for this year: www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=l_att&lid=117PawSox, with all of the controversy about the move and playing in a second-rate ballpark have averaged 5900. Yard Goats, a AA team in a brand new park, have averaged 5800. I have to think that, properly marketed and due to the novelty of a new team, that a Red Sox AAA team in Worcester ought to do more than 7000 in the first season. The challenge is to keep it up after season 1. I would trust Larry Lucchino in that regard. Despite my rosy forecast, I do not believe that this stadium can pay for itself even with associated development. The only possible economic justification for a stadium like the one built in Hartford or the one proposed in Worcester is that it improves the quality of life thereby attracting and keeping good companies and good jobs. I would like someone to prove to me that this really works. We might also want to talk about whose quality of life is being improved. Poorer and lower-middle-class Worcester and Hartford taxpayers will be paying for the entertainment of residents of Shrewsbury and Glastonbury respectively. I have been to Dunkin Donuts Park a couple of times each year and would be more inclined to go to Worcester than Pawtucket but that doesn't mean it's a goo deal. The argument is the money that would be spent on Shrewsbury Street for dinner will just come to the ballpark area on a game night instead which ends up hurting the businesses already in town and just moves the money around thus been a neutral factor. There will also be people NOT coming into the city due to the fact it is game night. I don’t know many people that travel to watch minor league baseball that stay in a hotel besides the team and maybe a handful of scouts watching the team. Giving the Pawsox ownership group a better deal than Kraft got in Foxboro or the Bruins got with the Garden.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Aug 23, 2018 5:16:03 GMT -5
The argument is the money that would be spent on Shrewsbury Street for dinner will just come to the ballpark area on a game night instead which ends up hurting the businesses already in town and just moves the money around thus been a neutral factor. There will also be people NOT coming into the city due to the fact it is game night. It's not a well-considered argument. First of all, I'm guessing a good portion of the 2,400 who go to see the Bravehearts eat at home or have ballpark food. Doubt very many are starting their outing at the 111 or Via. But let's assume the dinner money, wherever it's being spent, does move - it will move as a similar proportion of the 7,000 - 8,000 that are going to see the WooSox. And there will be 70+ games at Polar Park per season, more than twice as many as there are at Fitton for the local FCBL entry. Not remotely can this be construed as a zero-sum game as you, echoing Baumann in the recent T&G op-ed piece, assert.
The idea that people will not come into the city at night because there's something to do there at night . . . res ipsa loquitur. Reminds me of Yogi Berra explaining why he didn't go to a certain restaurant by pointing out that "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded." Not many people go into Worcester at night now, and I get it that a lot of folks in Worcester like it that way - obviously, the best way to continue keeping the night crowds at their current level is to continue giving people reasons not to go.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Aug 23, 2018 7:28:27 GMT -5
The argument is the money that would be spent on Shrewsbury Street for dinner will just come to the ballpark area on a game night instead which ends up hurting the businesses already in town and just moves the money around thus been a neutral factor. There will also be people NOT coming into the city due to the fact it is game night. It's not a well-considered argument. First of all, I'm guessing a good portion of the 2,400 who go to see the Bravehearts eat at home or have ballpark food. Doubt very many are starting their outing at the 111 or Via. But let's assume the dinner money, wherever it's being spent, does move - it will move as a similar proportion of the 7,000 - 8,000 that are going to see the WooSox. And there will be 70+ games at Polar Park per season, more than twice as many as there are at Fitton for the local FCBL entry. Not remotely can this be construed as a zero-sum game as you, echoing Baumann in the recent T&G op-ed piece, assert.
The idea that people will not come into the city at night because there's something to do there at night . . . res ipsa loquitur. Reminds me of Yogi Berra explaining why he didn't go to a certain restaurant by pointing out that "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded." Not many people go into Worcester at night now, and I get it that a lot of folks in Worcester like it that way - obviously, the best way to continue keeping the night crowds at their current level is to continue giving people reasons not to go. Not many people go to Worcester at night? What planet do you live on? And what does this project have to do with Shrewsbury Street? It’s 2 different parts of the city. The area around Green, Harding, Water and Millbury Streets will see the impact on game day. The restaurants and bars will have at least an additional 70 days of increased business.
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Post by Tom on Aug 23, 2018 8:36:16 GMT -5
The argument is the money that would be spent on Shrewsbury Street for dinner will just come to the ballpark area on a game night instead which ends up hurting the businesses already in town and just moves the money around thus been a neutral factor. There will also be people NOT coming into the city due to the fact it is game night. I don’t know many people that travel to watch minor league baseball that stay in a hotel besides the team and maybe a handful of scouts watching the team. Giving the Pawsox ownership group a better deal than Kraft got in Foxboro or the Bruins got with the Garden. While I am not on the bandwagon, I disagree with this logic. 1) I still think the biggest part of the minor league demographic is young families. They're not heading to Shrewsbury St with kids in tow, Yes there will be some drop off, but I don't think it will be huge 2) While people from Shrewsbury, Auburn, West Boylston, etc will split their entertainment budget between the Woo Sox and Shrewsbury St, the team will also draw fans from Marlborough, Framingham, and Leominster. I think those people aren't coming to Worcester just for dinner
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Post by WorcesterGray on Aug 23, 2018 9:18:36 GMT -5
I don’t know many people that travel to watch minor league baseball that stay in a hotel besides the team and maybe a handful of scouts watching the team. That's not the reason for the hotel. The thinking is that the economic development of the area will bring in new businesses, or encourage existing businesses to expand. People traveling to Worcester for business - or, say, to accompany their kids to college at the beginning of the school year, or to visit - would have another option for where to stay. And maybe, after their day is done, they might choose to stroll over to the park to take in a game.
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Post by Tom on Aug 23, 2018 10:20:38 GMT -5
I don’t know many people that travel to watch minor league baseball that stay in a hotel besides the team and maybe a handful of scouts watching the team. That's not the reason for the hotel. The thinking is that the economic development of the area will bring in new businesses, or encourage existing businesses to expand. People traveling to Worcester for business - or, say, to accompany their kids to college at the beginning of the school year, or to visit - would have another option for where to stay. And maybe, after their day is done, they might choose to stroll over to the park to take in a game. On the other hand, another hotel in Worcester might help HC bring the NCAA basketball tournament back to the Centrum
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Post by bringbackcaro on Aug 23, 2018 12:10:17 GMT -5
Here are the IL attendance records for this year: www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=l_att&lid=117PawSox, with all of the controversy about the move and playing in a second-rate ballpark have averaged 5900. Yard Goats, a AA team in a brand new park, have averaged 5800. I have to think that, properly marketed and due to the novelty of a new team, that a Red Sox AAA team in Worcester ought to do more than 7000 in the first season. The challenge is to keep it up after season 1. I would trust Larry Lucchino in that regard. Despite my rosy forecast, I do not believe that this stadium can pay for itself even with associated development. The only possible economic justification for a stadium like the one built in Hartford or the one proposed in Worcester is that it improves the quality of life thereby attracting and keeping good companies and good jobs. I would like someone to prove to me that this really works. We might also want to talk about whose quality of life is being improved. Poorer and lower-middle-class Worcester and Hartford taxpayers will be paying for the entertainment of residents of Shrewsbury and Glastonbury respectively. I have been to Dunkin Donuts Park a couple of times each year and would be more inclined to go to Worcester than Pawtucket but that doesn't mean it's a goo deal. The argument is the money that would be spent on Shrewsbury Street for dinner will just come to the ballpark area on a game night instead which ends up hurting the businesses already in town and just moves the money around thus been a neutral factor. There will also be people NOT coming into the city due to the fact it is game night. I don’t know many people that travel to watch minor league baseball that stay in a hotel besides the team and maybe a handful of scouts watching the team. Giving the Pawsox ownership group a better deal than Kraft got in Foxboro or the Bruins got with the Garden. This is a gross oversimplification of the Matheson & Baumann econ arguments. And circling back to your backwards logic that Worcester would fill the stadium to the same capacity as the Lowell Spinners, wouldn't the Worcester Bravehaearts be a better comparison? -In 2017, the Bravehearts were 7th out of 157 summer collegiate leagues that reported statistics to this website: ballparkdigest.com/2017/08/14/2017-summer-collegiate-attendance-by-average-Bravehearts attendance has increase each year since they started in 2014, starting with a 20.5% jump from years 1-2, and maintaining a steady year-over-year growth rate of 5.8%, 5.7%, and 6.2% over the past three years. Attendance this year was up 43.1% over year 1 (2014) and 18.7% over year 2 -- so much for that novelty factor, huh? -The Bravehearts were ranked first in attendance in their league this year, outpacing the second ranked team by 64% and the average league attendance by 67%. --Average attendance in the Independent League this year was 6,720, and the top team averaged 8,905 --Applying your Lowell logic, if the WooSox performed as well as the Bravehearts did again their competition in the league, they would be averaging 11-14K fans per game.
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Post by crusader12 on Aug 23, 2018 12:44:03 GMT -5
What the city politicians did by not including the Braveharts in a discussion is nothing short of a disgrace. Worcester politicians should be ashamed of themselves turning their back on arguably the most successful sports franchise in the city's history.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Aug 23, 2018 13:05:03 GMT -5
What the city politicians did by not including the Braveharts in a discussion is nothing short of a disgrace. Worcester politicians should be ashamed of themselves turning their back on arguably the most successful sports franchise in the city's history. 95% of politicians look at every issue in light of how it will affect their personal political ambitions. I know nothing about Worcester politics--whether the city councilors and mayor really have the best interests of the city and its citizens in mind as they discharge their duties.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Aug 23, 2018 13:09:59 GMT -5
What the city politicians did by not including the Braveharts in a discussion is nothing short of a disgrace. Worcester politicians should be ashamed of themselves turning their back on arguably the most successful sports franchise in the city's history. What would the Bravehearts have added to the discussion? They are certainly a nice story and have done extremely well compared to their peers, but there is a ceiling on what a team in their league can do for Worcester. This discussion was about a AAA baseball team that is affiliated with the Boston Red Sox and could be a catalyst for hundreds of millions of dollars in development to the downtown Worcester area, and I can't really follow what would lead to the Bravehearts being involved in those discussions/negotiations.
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Post by Tom on Aug 23, 2018 14:32:18 GMT -5
What the city politicians did by not including the Braveharts in a discussion is nothing short of a disgrace. Worcester politicians should be ashamed of themselves turning their back on arguably the most successful sports franchise in the city's history. Once again, I'm not on the WooSox bandwagon, but I don't see why the Bravehearts should be included in any negotiation unless they're planning on playing in the new park or have the Sox play in Fitton in some bridge year. I don't recall the Bravehearts being asked about the Pirates (summer arena football). Did CVS have a say when the Walgreens went in next door?
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Post by WorcesterGray on Aug 23, 2018 14:46:16 GMT -5
Just a reminder that the final push to bring AAA baseball to Worcester was the result of a grassroots effort by the Canal District Alliance, not politicians, in 2015. The CDA didn't check in with the Bravehearts, either, before mounting their "5,000 postcards" campaign. They ended up sending 10,000 www.telegram.com/article/20151225/SPORTS/151229418
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Post by timholycross on Aug 23, 2018 19:18:53 GMT -5
Whoever posted above that this was a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for Worcester was correct. Similar to a college and a basketball conference neither of which need be mentioned by name.
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Post by fittonsfury on Aug 25, 2018 13:01:58 GMT -5
The Paw Sox likely got too much, but that's a pretty blighted area that needed some redevelopment anyway. Best thing for it is a project like this that forces the city/state to get their act together.
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Post by rf1 on Aug 25, 2018 13:27:56 GMT -5
The Paw Sox likely got too much, but that's a pretty blighted area that needed some redevelopment anyway. Best thing for it is a project like this that forces the city/state to get their act together.
Too much may be an understatement when it comes to the offers from the two municipalities. The residents of Pawtucket would have been on the hook for 15M toward a new ballpark in their city. The taxpayers of Worcester are contributing 70M toward stadium construction. That is 4.67X more generous.
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Post by fittonsfury on Aug 25, 2018 13:31:51 GMT -5
I don't disagree, and the way they intend to pay for it, through taxes that will accrue as a result of the development, seems like a pyramid scheme to me. Still, last time I was in town I went through kelly square and that area is still a problem. I don't like the deal, but if this get that fixed, its not a total loss, IMHO.
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