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Post by rf1 on Jun 24, 2018 17:46:26 GMT -5
rf1, forget 45 years in Pawtucket. Tradition means nothing. The owners of the P/WSox are businessmen. Heck, even Holy Cross has recently shown tradition means nothing and, of course, the College is a "business" too - just less obviously so. [Personal observation: the HC Fund is taking a hit this fiscal year and deservedly so]. I certainly admire your support for keeping the AAA team in Pawtucket but if I recall rightly, the PawSox were looking to become the ProSox by moving to Providence because Pawtucket really isn't the Garden of Eden and they thought a downtown location would be a big success. PVD demurred. So, this isn't a "Providence is a bigger market than Worcester" discussion. It is Worcester vs. Pawtucket. Worcester has historically been the second largest city in New England to Boston. Providence has beaten them out a couple of census years, so it's close. Last I saw, Worcester took the lead again. I don't think there are a lot of Westerly fans of the PawSox and going to McCoy, or Newport or (name any RI town 10 miles south of Providence). The very newness of having an AAA-level baseball team in Worcester would draw better, at least initially, than Pawtucket. A new Pawtucket stadium is probably not going to drive a lot of new PawSox fans but will make those who already fans happy. A new team and a new stadium in Worcester will likely draw better in the long run especially if they play well. As for TV, how many people watch the PawSox on RI TV? (sort of rhetorical as the answer is likely virtually nil and on a cable channel). Whatever the decision, it'll be interesting because the Sox owners will owe everyone an explanation of why they chose the way they did as this looks like a toss-up to me. The Pawtucket Red Sox draw from the entire Providence market which extends into much of RI and even nearby SE MA. They are very much part of the region. One cannot restrict the market to only its home city as its attendance comes from a much wider area.
As for loyalty, it is sadly not followed as much these days. If it were solely up to Luchinni and dependent only on the stadium team investment, Worcester would be the destination without doubt based on rumors of its proposal. Luchinno is however just one of a partnership whose interest distribution is not generally known. Most of the other partners have deep RI connections which could play a part in the decision making. I still contend the yearly revenue stream potential is greater in RI via more attendance and corporate sponsorships. It may come down to short term stadium investment (favors Worcester) versus long term revenue stream (favors RI).
While Worcester is the second largest city in New England, most of this is due to it having more than twice the land area size of Providence (Providence: 18.5 land sq miles 180K pop - Worcester 37.6 land sq miles 184K pop: The Providence metro area is listed as the 38th largest in the US with 1,621,122 while Worcester is #58 at 942,475. Pawtucket has only 8.7 sq land miles with 71K residents. If Pawtucket was combined with Providence, the combined cities would still be far smaller in area than Worcester but have some 70k more people. Keep in mind the Pawtucket stadium will be just 4 miles up Route 95 from downtown Providence which is basically a five minute drive.
While I do not argue that there are not large numbers of people going to games driving from Westerly or Newport, the same would be true for similar distance to Worcester. Most patrons going to the games probably come from within 25 miles of the stadium (this would include many SE MA towns and cities as the stadium site would be a 1/2mile from the state line). That is why I believe the tight densely populated urban area in and around Providence-Pawtucket gives it a distinct advantage over Worcester. A Worcester team would have to draw heavily from the western Boston suburbs to succeed. Most residents of these towns however direct all attention eastward and give little thought to Worcester and other points west of them.
As for tv, entire games being on tv is a relatively new thing and is more of a weekly occurence. The games are on myRITV which is a cable only venture run by WPRI Channel 12 (it is however on all the RI and MA cable networks on a channel in and around the main over the air stations - North Attleborough/SE MA Comcast has it on ch 820 for HD with all the main Boston and Providence stations located from 801-820). The more important factor regarding tv (versus the actual entire game telecast) is the daily reporting of scores and highlights on the four local Providence newscasts as this keeps the team continually in the public eye at no team cost.
It is a horrible thing that two cities that share opposite ends of the Blackstone River National Heritage Corridor have been pitted against one another by ownership. This has further increased the necessary taxpayer investment and will ultimately result in hurt feelings. Neither RI or Worcester will totally win in the end. The chosen city may get the team but they will do so at a steeper taxpayer cost.
Having connections to both cities (Pawtucket native that lives just five miles from there now in North Attleborough and Worcester college grad that lived or worked in Worcester County for some ten years), I can understand the pros/cons and see the perspectives of both sides.
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Post by timholycross on Jun 27, 2018 11:48:39 GMT -5
Good luck to Worcester on this. Sincerely. The city is closer to me by at least 30 minutes and I'm more likely to go to a game there than the (proposed) new McCoy. And it would do a lot for the psyche of the area, I'm sure.
My skepticism at this point is restricted to one thing, but I believe it's important. How can this much money be committed to that business without there being some bill before the Legislature or some referendum vote of some kind? Can anyone say with close to 100% certainty that if Lucchino said "yes" the plan would immediately go into motion? My experience with Massachusetts politics is that nothing like this just happens; things get announced then go nowhere.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jun 27, 2018 12:20:27 GMT -5
Good luck to Worcester on this. Sincerely. The city is closer to me by at least 30 minutes and I'm more likely to go to a game there than the (proposed) new McCoy. And it would do a lot for the psyche of the area, I'm sure. +1. Have been to the old McCoy many times, but not for several years due to the drive time from north of Worcester.
The sad thing is that, if the PawSox stay put, the territorial rule will continue to prohibit Worcester from pursuing another affiliated minor league opportunity - at least that's my understanding. Quite confident that a AA team (the sweet spot for a fan of the professional game, imho) would draw very well in Worcester, regardless of whether or not there was a team in Rhode Island - and regardless of what major league team it was affiliated with.
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Post by Tom on Jun 28, 2018 8:04:57 GMT -5
. My experience with Massachusetts politics is that nothing like this just happens; things get announced then go nowhere. In 2011, MA passed a law that would allow as many as three full casinos (and also a slot parlor). Although construction is underway, as of today, I believe there are zero full casinos. Things can happen, it just takes a lot longer to work around bureaucratic mess and fill all the hands that are out
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Jun 28, 2018 9:02:46 GMT -5
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Post by gks on Jun 28, 2018 11:59:29 GMT -5
One thing I get concerned about with Larry Lucchino is the cost to the fan. Can't bring major league prices to a minor league team. Doesn't matter where the stadium is it won't work. That's long been the incentive to attend games in Pawtucket it is family-friendly priced. If you build a palace of a stadium that factor is at risk.
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Post by HCFC45 on Jun 30, 2018 7:09:24 GMT -5
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 30, 2018 7:42:25 GMT -5
Gee, this sounds a lot like politics. DEAN, can you kill this thread? When I read this stuff (I can't look away), it reminds me of the old cowboy movies where the cowboy has to shot his injured horse. For the love of God, please, NO MORE POSTS until the Paw/WooSox actually sign a deal with either Wooster or Pahtucket. I hate local politics. Ask my Mayor, hoping to be governor, Fung!
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Post by HCFC45 on Jun 30, 2018 10:19:47 GMT -5
Come on, lighten up, Francis!!! !
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Post by rf1 on Jun 30, 2018 13:05:58 GMT -5
Peter Griffin wants the PawSox to stay in RI. So do corporate sponsors Happy Go Lucky Toys (Pawtucket based Hasbro) and Pawtucket Patriot Ale (Pawtucket based Narragansett).
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Post by rf1 on Jul 1, 2018 15:59:57 GMT -5
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Jul 11, 2018 10:37:09 GMT -5
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Post by rf1 on Jul 19, 2018 11:49:49 GMT -5
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Post by cmo on Jul 22, 2018 14:28:49 GMT -5
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Post by cmo on Jul 22, 2018 20:48:44 GMT -5
From the cafardo article :
. There are a few folks around the Pawtucket Red Sox situation who feel the PawSox will be playing in Worcester in the future. Those folks tell us that the International League would not approve the deal as structured and the city of Pawtucket would be put into financial hardship. Worcester has a solid plan and corporate interest.
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Post by timholycross on Jul 23, 2018 12:21:16 GMT -5
"those folks" are probably Lucchino, knowing Cafardo. Good news for The Woo I would say.
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Post by cmo on Aug 3, 2018 8:06:11 GMT -5
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Post by rf1 on Aug 3, 2018 8:47:57 GMT -5
I wonder how Worcester and Massachusetts taxpayers will react when the details are released and finally made public. Will they be perfectly ok with far more public money (tens of millions) being committed to a proposed stadium than the competing proposal?
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Aug 3, 2018 10:34:30 GMT -5
I wonder how Worcester and Massachusetts taxpayers will react when the details are released and finally made public. Will they be perfectly ok with far more public money (tens of millions) being committed to a proposed stadium than the competing proposal?
There is overwhelming support for this project. Of course, there will be opposition, but it will come from the same type of people that opposed the building of the Centrum.
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Post by rf1 on Aug 3, 2018 12:23:50 GMT -5
I wonder how Worcester and Massachusetts taxpayers will react when the details are released and finally made public. Will they be perfectly ok with far more public money (tens of millions) being committed to a proposed stadium than the competing proposal?
There is overwhelming support for this project. Of course, there will be opposition, but it will come from the same type of people that opposed the building of the Centrum. Support you presently may see is without the public actually knowing any of the details since they were purposely left out in the dark and had no input. Once people see what they are contributing, they may not be so supportive. Some people in Worcester may actually want something like better public transit (WRTA has many issues) which helps them in their everyday life rather than a ballpark.
Given it appears that Governor Baker has committed state taxpayer money, people across the state outside Worcester also have a stake. In my region of Massachusetts, it will be especially unpopular. Our tax money will be used to move the team much further away. It is far better for the folks in my part of Massachusetts to have the PawSox remain closeby with no MA public monies being spent. My guess is other parts of the state will not be so keen either with the state breaking its long tenured practice of not paying for venues for pro sports teams.
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Post by timholycross on Aug 3, 2018 12:43:25 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see what the deal is...you've got to think the deal on the table from RI is not something the PawSox can refuse unless they're absolutely sure that the Woo proposal will fly. Lucchino has been around Mass long enough to know that.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Aug 3, 2018 13:12:05 GMT -5
There is overwhelming support for this project. Of course, there will be opposition, but it will come from the same type of people that opposed the building of the Centrum. Support you presently may see is without the public actually knowing any of the details since they were purposely left out in the dark and had no input. Once people see what they are contributing, they may not be so supportive. Some people in Worcester may actually want something like better public transit (WRTA has many issues) which helps them in their everyday life rather than a ballpark.
Given it appears that Governor Baker has committed state taxpayer money, people across the state outside Worcester also have a stake. In my region of Massachusetts, it will be especially unpopular. Our tax money will be used to move the team much further away. It is far better for the folks in my part of Massachusetts to have the PawSox remain closeby with no MA public monies being spent. My guess is other parts of the state will not be so keen either with the state breaking its long tenured practice of not paying for venues for pro sports teams.
Charlie Baker has already said the state will provide funding for infrastructure and not towards the cost of the stadium. It will be interesting to see the details of how the city, state and maybe federal funding will work.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Aug 4, 2018 6:17:30 GMT -5
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Post by rf1 on Aug 4, 2018 8:38:45 GMT -5
I am already very familiar with the drive up Rte 146. I, like many others in the current PawSox market, however will never attend a game in Worcester should the franchise move there. Most all of the present fan base of the PawSox (based in RI and SE MA) will no longer follow the team upon a move. If the team goes to Worcester, it will have to create it own new fan base. It should not have delusions that large numbers of people from RI and SE MA will travel to Worcester for games. There will be much ill will should the team move and furthermore, most would not make the drive due to the distance even if they did not have hard feelings.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Aug 4, 2018 9:07:58 GMT -5
And this is the difference between us. I and many, many others from the Worcester area have driven down 146 for years to watch the PawSox. I'm quite confident that if the WooSox come to be, there is an avid fan-base waiting for them - you and your bitter, incessantly whiny ilk can stay right where you are.
Worcester hasn't had affiliated baseball for nearly 100 years. It's about time.
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