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Post by rgs318 on Jun 15, 2018 14:36:29 GMT -5
It would be nice to have the choice and to have that choice impacted by the volume of top student-athlete alums we wished to (and needed to) honor.
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Post by CHC8485 on Jun 15, 2018 14:49:12 GMT -5
The Luth Athletic Complex has 281,000 square feet. I've been on a couple of tours but never pay enough attention to various rooms within because it is so big. For me, you keep the 1st Team All-Americans having their special place in the rafters - a pantheon of heroes. Others (lesser mortals?) like Potter, Vicens, Siudut, Hochstein, etc. should have a dedicated room for those who don't qualify for the summit of the rafters but were excellent in their own right. There has to be enough room for them in a $95 million facility and would be worth showing the history of Crusader basketball to recruits. Yeah. Stick the mere mortals in a closet that no one ever sees. The idea is to celebrate the history with the entire Holy Cross community & fan base not just those who happen to take a wrong turn and open the correct door. The hallway between the gym & the rin kis for the HC Athletics Hall of Fame, not just basketball. Maybe the Fr. McFarland Atrium could work. Maybe you recognize all BB HC Hall of Famers inthe Blaney Gym, but think you need to recognize more than 1 player every 60 years in the main gym. Hell if you go the academic all american route, it' still 35 years since we've had a men's player achieve that and coming up on 20 for a woman!
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 15, 2018 15:07:27 GMT -5
Back to the point at hand - the rafters. Truly should be for the absolute best of the best and All-American status goes beyond just our personal favorites and makes an inherently subjective decision just a little bit more objective.
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Post by Ignutz on Jun 15, 2018 15:25:19 GMT -5
Not sure it's Pine's standard as I seem to recall that being said before Nate arrived. Regardless, I feel the standard has to change for 2 reasons - 5 of the 6 guys who played over a 15 year period (Kaftan, Cooz, Heinsohn, Togo, & Jack the shot) that ended almost 60 years ago plus Ronnie Perry (almost 40 years ago). The history of HC basketball is much deeper than that and the men who (and women by the way) who represent the best of that history deserve some recognition.
- I think we all recognize that the liklihood of a Holy Cross player crossing the All-American standard is very low and so you'd like the players you're recruiting today to be able to think, maybe someday ...
Not saying we have to become the Yankees or Celtics and hang the jersey of every all-star who played on a championship team, but c'mon. Maybe any all-america team (1st, 2nd, or 3rd) which only adds Ed Siudut or academic all-americans (any team) - Siudut, Chris Potter, & Jim Nairus - or PL scholar athlete of the year (Nairus) makes sense. Academic All-Americans would add a few women too (Sherry Levin, Ann Lambiotte, Kathy Courtney & Amy O’Brien). And maybe you make the first team All-Americans stand out by making them a different color or larger - or put them at one end of the gyme and the others at the other end. Lots of ways to distinguish them. We deviated from the tradition of only having banners for the 2 championship teams to having banners for any team that made the NCAA or NIT. We can modify the rules here too. And while I'm at it, can we ditch the vinyl banners (both jerseys & NCAA/NIT) and make them cloth? Loved the old felt NCAA & NIT banners. Much more classic look than the plastic. I'd settle for nylon as they hang so much better than the stiff vinyl. And when we change them, I'd suggest making the 1947 & 1954 banners purple so they stand out in the sea of other banners - again, an attempt to highlight the special place those teams have in the history of HC basketball. Monument Park in Yankee Stadium includes honors for Allie Reynolds, Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, Mel Stottlemyre and some others who were fine players but far from immortal. Perhaps they're appropriate in that the Park has different levels of honor: plaques on red granite blocks for true immortals Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, Joe D, and Miller Huggins with the other plaques placed on a wall. Still, as a lifelong Yankee fan, it seems to me that the standards are not the most stringent
And when I see that Kevin Youkilis is now a member of the Red Sox HoF, I think we're really starting to stretch it.
I liked Youk as much as the next guy, but be serious. Who's next, Nick Esasky???
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Post by Tom on Jun 15, 2018 15:38:04 GMT -5
Monument Park in Yankee Stadium includes honors for Allie Reynolds, Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, Mel Stottlemyre and some others who were fine players but far from immortal. Perhaps they're appropriate in that the Park has different levels of honor: plaques on red granite blocks for true immortals Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, Joe D, and Miller Huggins with the other plaques placed on a wall. Still, as a lifelong Yankee fan, it seems to me that the standards are not the most stringent
And when I see that Kevin Youkilis is now a member of the Red Sox HoF, I think we're really starting to stretch it.
I liked Youk as much as the next guy, but be serious. Who's next, Nick Esasky???
I thought the same thing. The team HoF doesn't need to be as selective as Cooperstown or the retired numbers Looking at the whole inducted class. Lowell was a big player for a shorter amount of time, but gets slack as a World Series MVP. Lowe was another borderline guy, but has that whole winning clinching game in ALDS, ALCS, and WS. Also one of only 3 pitchers in MLB history to win 20 in a season and save 40 in a series. (add no hitter in there and he's one of two) In general, a weak class and Youk, although a fine player, is quite a stretch
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Post by CHC8485 on Jun 15, 2018 16:17:36 GMT -5
Back to the point at hand - the rafters. Truly should be for the absolute best of the best and All-American status goes beyond just our personal favorites and makes an inherently subjective decision just a little bit more objective. Because the standard we are operating under means those current banners simply collect dust. I just checked and the 2018-2019 will be the 100th season of Holy Cross basektball and if the only players over that 100 seasons worth recognizing in a significant way are 5 guys who played in a 15 year strech of that 100 year history and one other, you lose perspective of the history of the program. I laid out an equally objective standard that expands the numbers recognized by 7 and actually includes the women who also have a pretty nice 40+ year history with no individual recognition in that gym. And given the current climate of intercollegiate athletics particularly in the one and done era of basketball, the objective standard I proposed, while still difficult, stands a slightly better chance of a current player achieving at some point. And it's a standard the school promotes itself as embodying. What's wrong with that?
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jun 15, 2018 16:23:51 GMT -5
And when I see that Kevin Youkilis is now a member of the Red Sox HoF, I think we're really starting to stretch it.
I liked Youk as much as the next guy, but be serious. Who's next, Nick Esasky???
Youkilis, with a career WAR of 32.6, is far more deserving than about half the players preceding him into the Red Sox HoF. Marty Barrett?
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jun 15, 2018 18:18:56 GMT -5
If the CJ McCollum era played out at HC (2 NCAA appearances in 4 years with a win over Duke, POY, over 2,000 points, 1st round NBA draft pick), do you think TPTB would have made an exception to the A-A rule?
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 15, 2018 18:43:26 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with that. Just a difference of opinion.
But, you do have a good point about the lack of ladies in the rafters. Was Sherry Levine (think that's the name) an All-American? Or just played on the Israeli national team? Hey, maybe include those who played (i.e. represented) on a national team like Mike Vicens played for Puerto Rico?
I just don't want to "cheapen" it just to get more names up there. I think the football "Ring of Honor" runs that risk but considering there are 90+ players on a team every year vs. 15 +/- (30 +/- if you add the women), the extra names are understandable.
Look, nothing against the great players we've already named but they are just not in the same class of Cooz, Togo, Heinsohn, etc. who were nationally known and also generally played at the professional level after graduation.
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Post by southernsader on Jun 15, 2018 18:50:02 GMT -5
Tino Martinez? That's really a stretch.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 15, 2018 22:04:20 GMT -5
For the ladies, Sherry Levin was "Jewish All-American" in 1983. She has the most points scored (2,253); highest scoring average (21.8); most double-figure scoring games (101); most field goals made (842); most free throws made (569); second most free throw attempts (698, 1 less than #1 Amy O'Brien); tied for 2nd with Maggie Fontana free throw % (.815). She was COSIDA 1st team Academic All-American in 1983, 2nd team in 1982 and honorable mention in 1984. Her number should be hoisted to the Hart rafters.
Janet Hourihan was named "Freshman All-American" (?) in 1983.
Three others were named honorable mention All-Americans: Amy O'Brien (AP - 1998); Lauren Maney (UP - 1996); Kathy Courtney (UP - 1997). Courtney and O'Brien were also named COSIDA academic All-Americans, Courtney 1st team in 1997, O'Brien 2nd team in both 1998 and 1999). Ann Lambiotte was 3rd team in 1991.
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Post by cmo on Jun 17, 2018 13:44:41 GMT -5
The Luth Athletic Complex has 281,000 square feet. I've been on a couple of tours but never pay enough attention to various rooms within because it is so big. For me, you keep the 1st Team All-Americans having their special place in the rafters - a pantheon of heroes. Others (lesser mortals?) like Potter, Vicens, Siudut, Hochstein, etc. should have a dedicated room for those who don't qualify for the summit of the rafters but were excellent in their own right. There has to be enough room for them in a $95 million facility and would be worth showing the history of Crusader basketball to recruits. Maybe surrounding the inside of the Blaney practice court?
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jun 17, 2018 20:21:58 GMT -5
Not sure it's Pine's standard as I seem to recall that being said before Nate arrived. Regardless, I feel the standard has to change for 2 reasons - 5 of the 6 guys who played over a 15 year period (Kaftan, Cooz, Heinsohn, Togo, & Jack the shot) that ended almost 60 years ago plus Ronnie Perry (almost 40 years ago). The history of HC basketball is much deeper than that and the men who (and women by the way) who represent the best of that history deserve some recognition.
- I think we all recognize that the liklihood of a Holy Cross player crossing the All-American standard is very low and so you'd like the players you're recruiting today to be able to think, maybe someday ...
Not saying we have to become the Yankees or Celtics and hang the jersey of every all-star who played on a championship team, but c'mon. Maybe any all-america team (1st, 2nd, or 3rd) which only adds Ed Siudut or academic all-americans (any team) - Siudut, Chris Potter, & Jim Nairus - or PL scholar athlete of the year (Nairus) makes sense. Academic All-Americans would add a few women too (Sherry Levin, Ann Lambiotte, Kathy Courtney & Amy O’Brien). And maybe you make the first team All-Americans stand out by making them a different color or larger - or put them at one end of the gyme and the others at the other end. Lots of ways to distinguish them. We deviated from the tradition of only having banners for the 2 championship teams to having banners for any team that made the NCAA or NIT. We can modify the rules here too. And while I'm at it, can we ditch the vinyl banners (both jerseys & NCAA/NIT) and make them cloth? Loved the old felt NCAA & NIT banners. Much more classic look than the plastic. I'd settle for nylon as they hang so much better than the stiff vinyl. And when we change them, I'd suggest making the 1947 & 1954 banners purple so they stand out in the sea of other banners - again, an attempt to highlight the special place those teams have in the history of HC basketball. Monument Park in Yankee Stadium includes honors for Allie Reynolds, Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, Mel Stottlemyre and some others who were fine players but far from immortal. Perhaps they're appropriate in that the Park has different levels of honor: plaques on red granite blocks for true immortals Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, Joe D, and Miller Huggins with the other plaques placed on a wall. Still, as a lifelong Yankee fan, it seems to me that the standards are not the most stringent
Having toured monument park at the old and new Yankee Stadiums several times, I will point out the difference that Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, and Joe D have "monuments," which in the old Yankee Stadium really were massive and set apart in different areas from the rest of the folks. Guys like O'Neil have a "plaque," not a "monument," and also do not have their numbers retired. As much as an O'Neill fan as I am, I am somewhat surprised he got anything. No Yankee has been issued #21 anyway out of respect, so they say, since O'Neill retired. I think the recent round were when the team had its postseason skids and a way to get the current fanbase to stay with the team during its brief hiccup. With that, I've read numerous things about O'Neill bringing the championship "attitude" to the 90s Yankees team at a time they had to learn how to win and win in the postseason again, so not my biggest complaint on him specifically.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jun 17, 2018 20:24:03 GMT -5
Also, the new monument park is a dump/afterthought compared to the old one. (Cue the folks who will say "In my day, the monuments were in the field of play in center field," in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...).
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 18, 2018 5:45:12 GMT -5
"In my day . . . . " [Didn't want to disappoint you]
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jun 18, 2018 9:04:34 GMT -5
If the CJ McCollum era played out at HC (2 NCAA appearances in 4 years with a win over Duke, POY, over 2,000 points, 1st round NBA draft pick), do you think TPTB would have made an exception to the A-A rule? Let's pray we have the chance to complain about a player of this caliber NOT being put in the rafters. IMHO, this is the type of player who could have an exception made.
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Post by hchoops on Jun 18, 2018 12:33:15 GMT -5
So was Chris Potter
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Post by timholycross on Jun 18, 2018 19:39:23 GMT -5
Also, the new monument park is a dump/afterthought compared to the old one. (Cue the folks who will say "In my day, the monuments were in the field of play in center field," in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...). amazing that ys is now ranked as more of a homer hitting park than Fenway; as the 'Ol Perfesser would say "you could look it up"
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Post by jkh67 on Jun 18, 2018 20:36:30 GMT -5
Also, the new monument park is a dump/afterthought compared to the old one. (Cue the folks who will say "In my day, the monuments were in the field of play in center field," in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...). Thanks for the cue. When I was a young lad back in the late 50s-early 60s, there were three "monuments" at 461 feet dead center field clearly visible from the upper Stadium's general admission deck where I spent a lot of time ($1.30 per seat back then, with the occasional pole problem)...Ruth (3), Gehrig (4), and DiMaggio (5). Three titans of the game. Mantle (7)...another titan of the game... was the worthy heir to that marvelous tradition. The rest of the boys in pinstripes afterwards? Whatever. No matches for 3, 4, 5, and 7 in my book.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 18, 2018 21:03:32 GMT -5
You might include Yogi ...,,
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Post by hc87 on Jun 18, 2018 21:25:45 GMT -5
Potter was the best HC player not recognized so far imo...we'd nevah get a player of his ilk today
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Post by hchoops on Jun 18, 2018 21:28:44 GMT -5
Potter was the best HC player not recognized so far imo...we'd nevah get a player of his ilk today Agree with the first statement as fah as the second, nevah say nevah
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Post by Tom on Jun 19, 2018 8:34:18 GMT -5
Also, the new monument park is a dump/afterthought compared to the old one. (Cue the folks who will say "In my day, the monuments were in the field of play in center field," in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...). amazing that ys is now ranked as more of a homer hitting park than Fenway; as the 'Ol Perfesser would say "you could look it up" Left Field at Fenway is short. Right field at Yankee Stadium is short. Left field at Fenway has a 37 foot high wall. The wall giveth and the wall taketh away.. I believe death valley in right field is not as deep in New Yankee stadium
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jun 19, 2018 9:16:29 GMT -5
New Yankee Stadium and Old Yankee Stadium (post 1980s final fence moves in left and center) dimensions are exactly the same. The new stadium plays a little smaller out to RCF, in my opinion, because of the open airflow in the stadium. Far more breezy down at field level.
BTW, "Death Valley" is LCF, not RF, at Yankee Stadium.
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Post by hchoops on Jun 19, 2018 9:25:00 GMT -5
Can we please return to HC sports
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