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Post by breezy on Jun 16, 2016 20:07:45 GMT -5
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Post by matunuck on Jun 17, 2016 9:39:29 GMT -5
No surprise. The "Crusader" will go the way of the Dodo bird in the not too distant future. Actually surprised it has lasted this long given today's campus culture.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 17, 2016 9:46:26 GMT -5
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 17, 2016 10:08:17 GMT -5
This is just so sad--yet another milepost in our society's march to its doom
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Post by gks on Jun 17, 2016 10:14:58 GMT -5
Good grief. What a bunch of political correct garbage.
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Post by hc6774 on Jun 17, 2016 10:19:33 GMT -5
"...Committee to be aware of other issues of naming and memorialization on our campus which might need to be reviewed"...seems to be a very broad charge. Having been involved with various naming/memorialization efforts for military on campus, it can be awkward.
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Post by alum on Jun 17, 2016 11:07:45 GMT -5
This is just so sad--yet another milepost in our society's march to its doom I don't like this "splitting the baby" decision. I am very comfortable with not renaming Healy. I can see both sides of the argument on Mulledy and would not suggest that those who disagree with me don't have a point. It really depends upon whether what he did at Georgetown is to be considered both "malum per se" and so horrible that he could not redeem himself. I certainly think that his actions at Georgetown were horrific. Based upon what I read here, I can accept the argument that his subsequent actions earned him a reprieve. Turning to the question of the name Brooks-Mulledy, I don't like that at all. It is a sell out and I have to say that Father Brooks was not afraid to take a stand and would have been able to make a decision here. Oh, and why the heck are we naming dorms for people without getting $5 million dollars for it? When my daughter's alma mater wanted to name a new dorm after the outgoing President who had rebuilt its reputation, finances, and physical plant, the Bof T members came up with several millions to justify it.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 17, 2016 13:36:37 GMT -5
IIRC, the nickname Crusader was coined by a Boston sports writers in the 1920s / 1930s, so probably not a lot of deliberate thought went into it.
As for the actual crusades, of the eight, six were failures, in several cases abject failures.
Two were successful in securing Jerusalem. The First, the Deus Vult crusade, began with the first pogrom of the Jews. The Sixth was led by an excommunicated Emperor, who was warring with the pope over the papal states, and this Crusade was not authorized by the Church.
Thus its not clear what virtues or achievements HC is memorializing by naming its sports teams the Crusaders, as there were many more defeats than victories, and some of the leaders seem, in retrospect, to have been a bunch of losers.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 17, 2016 15:09:48 GMT -5
Why in heaven's name would anyone want to even consider renaming Healy? First valedictorian. FIrst black student. Rose to Church ranks as a bishop. Trying to show "fairness" since they were looking at Mulledy!?
While I don't care one way or the other about keeping or renaming Mulledy Hall, this is after all, the "Year of Mercy" and maybe Mulledy should stand as a symbol to show God's mercy for a reformed sinner. Heck, St. Paul persecuted the early Christians and end up a saint. Peter denied Christ 3 times and became head of the Church.
I agree with the comments that it should be Mulledy or Brooks but not both.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 17, 2016 15:14:53 GMT -5
As for Crusaders, we've gone around the block on this one a few times. Crusaders, for me, while acknowledging the Crusades to the Holy Land, means more than that. It means more generically fighting for any righteous cause. In our particular case, loyalty to our alma mater.
FIght on as knights of old with hearts as loyal and true and bold and wage the bitter fight with all your might fight on for Holy Cross
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 17, 2016 16:46:52 GMT -5
Why in heaven's name would anyone want to even consider renaming Healy? First valedictorian. FIrst black student. Rose to Church ranks as a bishop. Trying to show "fairness" since they were looking at Mulledy!? Healy was apparently flagged by someone(s) very early on, and the issue was that the sale of slaves by the Healy family (sale of estate assets) benefited Holy Cross financially. The college also believes that some of the proceeds from Fr. NMulledy's slave sale were eventually directed to and benefited Holy Cross, financially.
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Post by beaven302 on Jun 18, 2016 12:10:11 GMT -5
As for Crusaders, we've gone around the block on this one a few times. Crusaders, for me, while acknowledging the Crusades to the Holy Land, means more than that. It means more generically fighting for any righteous cause. In our particular case, loyalty to our alma mater. FIght on as knights of old with hearts as loyal and true and bold and wage the bitter fight with all your might fight on for Holy Cross Unfortunately, among the "knights of old" there were plenty who did not have "hearts as loyal and true and bold." As Prof. Powers taught in Western Civ class back in 1964, the major reason the Pope called for a crusade was to get the homicidal, warlike nobles and their knights out of Europe. As for the Crusades themselves, since the last go-round on the old Board, I've done a little reading on the Muslim reaction to them. One source claimed that Muslim writers never applied the term "crusaders" to the armies that invaded the Holy Land. Instead, they called them "Franks" or "infidels." This source also stated that "crusaders" did not appear in Muslim writings until the imperialist European powers of the nineteenth century started taking over Muslim territory. (At the end of WWI, the only Muslim territories free of some kind of European control were Persia, parts of Arabia, and Turkey.) Also at the time of the crusades, the wider Muslim world reportedly paid scant attention to what was a minor incursion and as today was more concerned with Shiite-Sunni rivalries. Far worse than anything the Europeans perpetrated was the invasion of Timur in the early 1400s, which resulted in the sacking of Aleppo, Damascus, and Baghdad and the massacre many of the inhabitants, and which also thoroughly ravaged portions of Anatolia. As for those few faculty members who support getting rid of the crusader mascot, they are suffering from a bad case of political correctness and/or don't know much history.
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 18, 2016 12:18:57 GMT -5
IIRC, the nickname Crusader was coined by a Boston sports writers in the 1920s / 1930s, so probably not a lot of deliberate thought went into it. It's not clear what virtues or achievements HC is memorializing by naming its sports teams the Crusaders, as there were many more defeats than victories, and some of the leaders seem, in retrospect, to have been a bunch of losers.Well, since HC has been a bottom feeder in the PL for most of its 25 years, the losses of the Crusaders could well be a tribute to our so-called "minor" l sports teams for at least that period.
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 18, 2016 12:24:01 GMT -5
As for Crusaders, we've gone around the block on this one a few times. Crusaders, for me, while acknowledging the Crusades to the Holy Land, means more than that. It means more generically fighting for any righteous cause. In our particular case, loyalty to our alma mater. FIght on as knights of old with hearts as loyal and true and bold and wage the bitter fight with all your might fight on for Holy Cross Unfortunately, among the "knights of old" there were plenty who did not have "hearts as loyal and true and bold." That makes it clear why they singled out those "with hearts as loyal and true and bold"As Prof. Powers taught in Western Civ class back in 1964, the major reason the Pope called for a crusade was to get the homicidal, warlike nobles and their knights out of Europe. As for the Crusades themselves, since the last go-round on the old Board, I've done a little reading on the Muslim reaction to them. One source claimed that Muslim writers never applied the term "crusaders" to the armies that invaded the Holy Land. Instead, they called them "Franks" or "infidels." This source also stated that "crusaders" did not appear in Muslim writings until the imperialist European powers of the nineteenth century started taking over Muslim territory. (At the end of WWI, the only Muslim territories free of some kind of European control were Persia, parts of Arabia, and Turkey.) Also at the time of the crusades, the wider Muslim world reportedly paid scant attention to what was a minor incursion and as today was more concerned with Shiite-Sunni rivalries. Far worse than anything the Europeans perpetrated was the invasion of Timur in the early 1400s, which resulted in the sacking of Aleppo, Damascus, and Baghdad and the massacre many of the inhabitants, and which also thoroughly ravaged portions of Anatolia. As for those few faculty members who support getting rid of the crusader mascot, they are suffering from a bad case of political correctness and/or don't know much history. I remember those lectures by Dr. Powers...some of his best. I am also afraid that expecting most modern faculty to know actual history may be a bit unrealistic, given the dilution coming from waves of PC changes. Nice summary post, sader1970.
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Post by HC92 on Jun 18, 2016 12:27:46 GMT -5
i will cease donating to HC if they give in to the PC nonsense re: Crusaders. I suspect I am not alone. Give me a break. Let's focus our time and effort on addressing actual problems in the world rather than ones made up by a small, but vocal group of people looking each day for new ways to be offended.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 18, 2016 12:44:59 GMT -5
Crusaders, for me, while acknowledging the Crusades to the Holy Land, means more than that. It means more generically fighting for any righteous cause. In our particular case, loyalty to our alma mater.
But I repeat myself.
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Post by HC13 on Jun 18, 2016 12:45:53 GMT -5
I feel the same 92.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 18, 2016 12:59:37 GMT -5
Great input above from many posters. HC 92, as he so often does, captures the essence of an issue when referencing "People looking each day for new ways to be offended".
It would be great if HC could show some leadership in pushing back against the insanity of overdone political correctness by staying with "Crusaders" .
When you think about it, is there any mascot that is impervious to criticism? "Wildcats" do damage to livestock, "Lions" are currently being investigated in India as a man eater is at work there, "Blue Devils" glorify Satan, the "Crimson Tide" evokes the concept of the red tide that renders shellfish inedible, "Engineers" have been responsible for countless disasters, and on and on we go......
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Post by beaven302 on Jun 18, 2016 13:47:53 GMT -5
I remember those lectures by Dr. Powers...some of his best. I am also afraid that expecting most modern faculty to know actual history may be a bit unrealistic, given the dilution coming from waves of PC changes. Nice summary post, sader1970. Powers gave very good lectures. Some of today's faculty could have benefited from them. As for their apparent historical ignorance, I suspect it's more than just PC. I wonder how many who aren't history professors ever took many history courses after high school. Back in the late '90s, when my son was at Bucknell, I was surprised that he, as a chemistry major, only had to take one history elective. He chose a course on the Roman Empire, meaning he learned little about what came before or after it.
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Post by beaven302 on Jun 18, 2016 13:58:18 GMT -5
"Wildcats" do damage to livestock .... Wildcats also often do serious damage to the University of Illinois Fighting Illini, Purdue Boilermakers, Indiana Hoosiers, Minnesota Gophers, etc. Sadly, they are less effective against Wisconsin Badgers, Michigan Wolverines, Ohio State Buckeyes, and Michigan State Spartans. Speaking of Spartans, that's a name that wouldn't stand close PC inspection. The Spartans may have been brave fighters, but their whole society was based on the brutal oppression of the hapless helots. Other names that might horrify the politically correct would be knights of all varieties, gladiators, sooners, cavaliers, pirates, buccaneers, raiders, etc. The list of potentially offensive names just goes on and on.
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Post by CHC8485 on Jun 18, 2016 14:21:27 GMT -5
Said the following to my sister in an e-mail between her ('78) my brother ('83) and my self. She spent an adult "gap year" in Europe a couple of years ago, based in France and found herself visiting many sites of slaughters in Southwestern France. She was questioning the appropriateness of the Crusader as a mascot for Holy Cross. My brother, a PhD historian, gave some historical context as has been presented here and the broader meaning of the term. I responded as follows:
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 18, 2016 14:33:36 GMT -5
Well-stated
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Post by beaven302 on Jun 18, 2016 17:30:58 GMT -5
Said the following to my sister in an e-mail between her ('78) my brother ('83) and my self. She spent an adult "gap year" in Europe a couple of years ago, based in France and found herself visiting many sites of slaughters in Southwestern France. She was questioning the appropriateness of the Crusader as a mascot for Holy Cross. This would relate to the Albigensian Crusade of the early 1200s, which did result in several massacres. There were also the Northern Crusades in which the Teutonic Knights attempted to convert various pagan Baltic groups (e.g., the Old Prussians) by making war against them. That said, none of this relates to a college mascot. On the subject of "offensive" mascots, how about the Tufts Jumbos, which derives from the now questionable practice of having elephants perform in circuses?
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Post by freethef4 on Jun 20, 2016 11:32:48 GMT -5
Great input above from many posters. HC 92, as he so often does, captures the essence of an issue when referencing "People looking each day for new ways to be offended". It would be great if HC could show some leadership in pushing back against the insanity of overdone political correctness by staying with "Crusaders" . When you think about it, is there any mascot that is impervious to criticism? "Wildcats" do damage to livestock, "Lions" are currently being investigated in India as a man eater is at work there, "Blue Devils" glorify Satan, the "Crimson Tide" evokes the concept of the red tide that renders shellfish inedible, "Engineers" have been responsible for countless disasters, and on and on we go...... So I guess we can all agree then that the only perfect mascot is the powerful yet peaceful, non environmentally damaging, elegant and athletic, RAM Thank you, your are all welcome on our side!
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Post by hchoops on Jun 20, 2016 12:55:15 GMT -5
FTf You forgot the smiley face
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