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Post by purplehaze on Oct 12, 2018 11:50:59 GMT -5
We had a lengthy dialogue on the UNH game discussion, but this topic deserves its own thread. When Fr. Brooks 'orchestrated' the PL alliance 34 years ago he imagined a league of high quality institutions that could match up among themselves and bring in the Ivy League for the majority of a non-conference schedule, all while adopting the 'need-based' financial aid model. Well, we all know this theory has blown up in our faces and the PL had to implement straight athletic grants to try and level the playing field. Now we know for sure that also has not worked out - and I'm talking about our competitiveness vs. the Ivies in 'all' sports. (Their olympic sports have always been way above the PL without question.) We posted Rich H's (Lehigh Football blog) article on the reasons for this on the other thread. Well, here is the Yale Daily News this week agreeing that the Ivies are getting it done on the recruiting trail and the winning will only continue. The question for us is: "What is the PL going to do other than stand by and accept more L's". yaledailynews.com/blog/2018/10/10/by-the-numbers-rise-of-ivy-league-football-recruiting/
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Post by rickii on Oct 12, 2018 12:28:19 GMT -5
To borrow an old movie line....
" Do ? Why we....we do nothing "
36 years ago Derek Bok instructed Brooks to either kneel to the Ivies ( de-emphasize football, jettison athletic scholarships and form a faux Ivy fodder league ) or lose all athletic competition with IL. Everyone knows the story from there on.
" Well how about we now, 36 years later, call their collective bluff ? "
There's 1 school that can least afford to take that chance....Holy Cross. Just like we had the most to lose in 1985 ( history, tradition, alum base, fan base, lost season tix sales, lost overall revenue, severe loss of brand recognition ), we would have the most to lose ( scheduling in all sports, increased travel expenses ) in reverse in 2018.
In retrospect, Bok knew who to threaten to get what he/the Ivies wanted.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 12, 2018 16:56:52 GMT -5
The Ivy's growing athletic recruiting success is (and has been) apparent. Especially football. We all know their new model of financial aid means no cost attendance for many students (including recruited athletes).
As purplehaze notes, they have long been national powers in many minor (AKA Olympic) sports.
No doubt PL is now an underdog in almost every athletic matchup v the IL. Not a surprise. And I don't see this changing any time soon.
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Post by realism on Oct 12, 2018 17:45:45 GMT -5
No doubt PL is now an underdog in almost every athletic matchup v the IL. Not a surprise. And I don't see this changing any time soon. I think this may be true of HC "in almost every athletic matchup v the IL." You obviously have a limited knowledge of what's going on at other PL schools in many sports. Your statement is irresponsible -- but, not a problem. It is however understandable how this assertion wouldn't be challenged on the HC board. That "lack of competitiveness" is not remotely true of other PL schools across all sports.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 12, 2018 17:48:26 GMT -5
reaism, I agree that judging how the PL stacks up by using HC as an example (a school that has one of the worst records in olympic sports every year across the board) is probably unfair to the PL.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 13, 2018 5:13:04 GMT -5
No doubt PL is now an underdog in almost every athletic matchup v the IL. Not a surprise. And I don't see this changing any time soon. I think this may be true of HC "in almost every athletic matchup v the IL." You obviously have a limited knowledge of what's going on at other PL schools in many sports. Your statement is irresponsible -- but, not a problem. It is however understandable how this assertion wouldn't be challenged on the HC board. That "lack of competitiveness" is not remotely true of other PL schools across all sports. Like the OP, I was thinking HC (and PL in football - given Lehigh's coach's quotes re Princeton debacle). Outside of HC in general and PL in football, I really don't know the crew, swimming, soccer, field hockey, baseball, etc. IL v PL daily matchup results if any. So edit PL to HC in the excerpted quote if various IL schools are generally the underdog v various PL schools in particular non revenue sports and the excerpt is not an accurate gross generalization.
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Post by realism on Oct 13, 2018 16:17:03 GMT -5
hcpride and rgs318, you should share your grace with another sader poster, purplehaze, who made a similar claim to the one above ( over on the "other Holy Cross sports" thread ). This is really insulting to the other PL schools. But more importantly, I think there should be a distinction made on this board between pure fan enthusiasm and careless misstatement of fact. Bison137 could make a similar rundown of national ranking in every PL olympic sport vs. the Ivies.
Oct 10, 2018 at 7:52am purplehaze said: Olympic sports is another stark example where the Ivies simply have better teams across the board than the PL. Brown (not a contender in the Ivy) beat our men 2-1 last night.
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31 minutes ago QuotelikedislikePost Options Post by bison137 on 31 minutes ago
True, the Ivy's are somewhat better in soccer - but it is not completely one-sided and the better PL teams can certainly hold their own with the IL. For example, here is where the teams from the two leagues are ranked by Massey:
Men (208 teams):
21 Cornell 47 Columbia 50 Loyola 51 Colgate 63 Lehigh 76 Dartmouth 77 Princeton 113 Brown 126 Yale 134 Bucknell 136 Brown 140 Army 151 Boston U 157 Harvard 161 Lafayette 165 American 171 Holy Cross
Women (335 teams):
57 Princeton 72 Penn 91 Dartmouth 99 Colgate 114 Boston U 122 Harvard 126 Columbia 142 Navy 159 Yale 178 Bucknell 195 Army 211 Lehigh 238 American 247 Holy Cross 264 Lafayette 272 Loyola 284 Cornell
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 13, 2018 17:39:38 GMT -5
It's not our fault, realism, that you were not issued the requisite purple glasses when you signed up for Crossports. I bet you didn't know that decades ago, before many here were even born, Holy Cross won both an NIT and NCAA national championship in basketball and also an NCAA national championship in baseball. We also were ranked #1 in D-IAA football one year and had multiple years when the Crusaders went undefeated. Also, we beat Minnesota in NCAA hockey when we were a 4th seed and they were a #1 seed. So, based on that history, we should expect that we would be the best now in every sport we compete in. You'd know that if the world had the proper purple hue to it. Oh, yeah, it's all because of Fr. Brooks who obviously misplaced his purple glasses a few decades ago.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 13, 2018 19:37:30 GMT -5
Realism - I'm not sure what 'share your grace' means (it may be a typo), but if your point is that Ivy soccer (men's and women's) is stronger than Patriot League soccer I'll certainly take your word for it.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 13, 2018 19:54:53 GMT -5
There's 1 school that can least afford to take that chance....Holy Cross. Just like we had the most to lose in 1985 ( history, tradition, alum base, fan base, lost season tix sales, lost overall revenue, severe loss of brand recognition ), we would have the most to lose ( scheduling in all sports, increased travel expenses ) in reverse in 2018. The most to lose...or the most to gain?
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Post by hc87 on Oct 13, 2018 23:33:46 GMT -5
All due respect to the Olympic sport student-athletes, but the people who truly care about anyone's school in sports not named football and men's basketball is rather miniscule....
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Post by purplehaze on Oct 14, 2018 13:57:00 GMT -5
Let's hope this year is an outlier but as the Ivy - PL football games has ended for this season, here are the results: PL record 2-8 Points for - against 163-324 (We scored 76 points in our 3 games which is very respectable)
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Post by timholycross on Oct 16, 2018 8:39:26 GMT -5
All due respect to the Olympic sport student-athletes, but the people who truly care about anyone's school in sports not named football and men's basketball is rather miniscule.... When we were still a "real" Division 1 program in the major sports (even if the teams weren't that good while I was at HC) we were playing the likes of Clark, WPI and Nichols in soccer and other sports. Too many sports and too small a school, that's the bottom line.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 16, 2018 11:35:06 GMT -5
That was basically the case into the late 1980s as well....2 things changed that: PL becoming all sports in the 1990s and the so called Dayton Rule in 1993(?) stipulating you had to participate in the same division for all sports....and I agree, this really hurt HC athletics in a host of ways
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Post by purplehaze on Oct 16, 2018 11:58:28 GMT -5
Among the 5 core PL schools we are the only one playing d. 2 and 3 (even naia schools) in many minor sports - look it up For example, Colgate (similar academics and enrollment) pulls it off quite nicely without competing against neighboring Hamilton, Utica etc...
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Post by gks on Oct 16, 2018 12:47:38 GMT -5
I'm going to bring this back to football because this is where the Ivy advantage is most visible. As been stated before the Ivy will continue to dominate the PL because....
-No roster limits -Unlimited money -Reputation/History -Administration/Athletics cooperation
PL schools with their 90 man roster limits and less than maximum allowed scholarship offerings are handcuffing themselves even further.
I would tell the Ivies to pound sand. PL should not schedule them any more. They don't adhere to the FCS equivalencies standards by using their "financial aid" story. This is the main reason, in my opinion, that the Ivies will never play in the NCAA playoffs....they would have to adhere to the rules and they don't want to do that.
At the point they are now the NCAA should force them to play FBS.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 16, 2018 13:02:40 GMT -5
The Ivies have a football roster limit of 120. The only schools without roster limits are the three service academies. Navy rostered 160+ for football last year.
Their (Ivy League) money is not unlimited. See condition of Yale Bowl, both stadium and field.
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Post by gks on Oct 16, 2018 13:04:47 GMT -5
Geez only 120....That's 30 more than PL schools, their supposed peers. Conditions of the stadiums have nothing to do with bringing in football players.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 16, 2018 14:58:01 GMT -5
Geez only 120....That's 30 more than PL schools, their supposed peers. Conditions of the stadiums have nothing to do with bringing in football players. The PL roster limit of 90 is self-imposed. Before scollies, HC sometimes rostered over 100, and there was a JV team. If a school has a JV team, the NCAA allows one additional coach. The one area where the Ivies clearly outspend the PL is in recruiting. Coaches' salaries are also generally higher in the Ivy League, partly as a consequence of coaching tenure. But CAA coaches as a group make more than PL coaches. But again, if HC wants to spend $500K more on salaries for its football coaches, its free to do so.
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Post by bison137 on Oct 16, 2018 15:12:09 GMT -5
I'm going to bring this back to football because this is where the Ivy advantage is most visible. As been stated before the Ivy will continue to dominate the PL because.... -No roster limits -Unlimited money -Reputation/History -Administration/Athletics cooperation PL schools with their 90 man roster limits and less than maximum allowed scholarship offerings are handcuffing themselves even further. I would tell the Ivies to pound sand. PL should not schedule them any more. They don't adhere to the FCS equivalencies standards by using their "financial aid" story. This is the main reason, in my opinion, that the Ivies will never play in the NCAA playoffs....they would have to adhere to the rules and they don't want to do that. The Ivy's 100% adhere to the NCAA rules on financial aid. They could play in the NCAA playoffs any time they choose. They have the same rules in all other sports and they do go to the NCAA's in everything else.
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Post by gks on Oct 17, 2018 6:36:27 GMT -5
The Ivies play the system to their athletic advantage. Ask any coach. Their equivalencies are well over 100. Call it what you want that is not allowed under NCAA rules. They are kicking the PL's butts on the recruiting trail yet a lot of people here seem to defend them....
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 17, 2018 7:57:13 GMT -5
Unless and until the PL achieves the highest academic reputation of the IL, we will always lose most head to head recruits.
PL is like IL in that they are academic leagues but IL is recognized as the most prestigious in the country. Just the way it is.
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Post by gks on Oct 17, 2018 12:29:40 GMT -5
IL is also seen as having a high reputation athletically....
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 17, 2018 13:32:16 GMT -5
Not in the same universe as their academic reputation.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 17, 2018 14:49:56 GMT -5
The Ivies play the system to their athletic advantage. Ask any coach. Their equivalencies are well over 100. Call it what you want that is not allowed under NCAA rules. They are kicking the PL's butts on the recruiting trail yet a lot of people here seem to defend them.... A.) The only way a HYP could have "well over 100" equivalencies is for the school to only recruit and matriculate football players whose families have an income of $65,000 or less, because the financial aid policies are such that these student-athletes attend HYP for free. Nearly t everyone else pays something. B.) bison has addressed your second point. C.) I assume you don't object if HYP hoops starts a player or two who is attending HYP as a full pay, and plays against an all-scollie PL hoops team.
If the Linkedin embed does not work, the Linkedin bio is for the son of MB mentioned in the article below, and was a starting PG for Harvard. ^^^ I include this example because he references his athletic career. As for being a full pay, .. saberpartners.com/press/the-bond-buyer-23/.
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