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Post by gks on Oct 17, 2018 21:56:11 GMT -5
Sorry but the Ivies (HYP) are well over 100 equivalencies. Ask any PL coach... They might call it something else other than a scholarship but it's there and it should count.
I have no problem with them spending their money (as they should) but they are hoarding talent and vastly shrinking the PL's normal recruiting pool. Don't need charts and graphs to see it.
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Post by purplehaze on Oct 24, 2018 12:17:58 GMT -5
From the Ivy League site, about 30 minute interview with the 8 bball coaches - They seem very confident that the rise in Ivy bball will only continue to increase for various reasons including the 10 yr espn contract (they dance around the financial aid advantage issue naturally). I see this trend, such as we see in football, posing a big challenge to the PL, although in recent years we've competed pretty well against them. ivyleague.com/news/2018/10/23/ivy-league-mens-basketball-coaches-sit-down-for-preseason-primer.aspx
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 24, 2018 12:39:49 GMT -5
I believe the Ivy is well aware of the PL and targets our schools. Dominance over the PL would boost their recruiting even more than it may be at present. They also seem more able (and willing) to work as a group to boost the league at the expense of outsiders.
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Post by bison137 on Oct 24, 2018 12:53:39 GMT -5
Sorry but the Ivies (HYP) are well over 100 equivalencies. Ask any PL coach... They might call it something else other than a scholarship but it's there and it should count. I have no problem with them spending their money (as they should) but they are hoarding talent and vastly shrinking the PL's normal recruiting pool. Don't need charts and graphs to see it. They are NOT well over 100 equivalencies, and I doubt any PL coach would say that. I know the one coach I talked to refuted the claim. I would guess that 80 equivalencies is in the ballpark.
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Post by gks on Oct 24, 2018 14:36:44 GMT -5
Sorry but the Ivies (HYP) are well over 100 equivalencies. Ask any PL coach... They might call it something else other than a scholarship but it's there and it should count. I have no problem with them spending their money (as they should) but they are hoarding talent and vastly shrinking the PL's normal recruiting pool. Don't need charts and graphs to see it. They are NOT well over 100 equivalencies, and I doubt any PL coach would say that. I know the one coach I talked to refuted the claim. I would guess that 80 equivalencies is in the ballpark. We'll agree to disagree....I've heard well over 100....any case they're over the FCS limit.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 24, 2018 14:54:07 GMT -5
...in any case they're over the FCS limit. That is the point that many are trying to make. They know how to cheat and to conceal it so they get an unfair edge...as if it were needed with their academic reputation.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 24, 2018 15:06:22 GMT -5
At a place like Harvard (or Yale), 20% of students (including athletes) attend for free and many many more attend at a VERY reduced rate:
"Families with incomes between $65,000 and $150,000 will contribute from 0-10% of their income."
As long as student athletes are treated equally with non-athletes at places like Harvard and Yale regarding financial aid, I really can't complain. I also imagine that nobody is surprised when any student (athlete or otherwise) picks HYP over competitors.
For several of my very brightest middle-class students (non-athletes BTW), HYP have proven to be the least expensive quality school option. Bills of 5-7K are not uncommon. This, of course, is a fairly recent change. I don't consider it cheating when the financial aid package lures them.
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Post by bison137 on Oct 24, 2018 16:22:34 GMT -5
...in any case they're over the FCS limit. That is the point that many are trying to make. They know how to cheat and to conceal it so they get an unfair edge...as if it were needed with their academic reputation. That is NOT true at all. It is NOT cheating when athletes get exactly the same aid as non-athletes. There is no cheating and nothing concealed. But having that sort of endowment is certainly an advantage.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 24, 2018 16:54:18 GMT -5
Some posters seem to persist in overlooking that the cost of playing football at a PL school is much more expensive for those receiving less than a full scollie than is the cost of playing football at a CAA school (other than Villanova, Richmond) on less than a full scollie.
UNH (tuition, fees, room&board) in-state $30,079; regional $41,434; non-resident, non-New England $45,459 Colgate: $69,865 James Madison in-state about $22,000; out-of-state $38,600 Stony Brook in state $22,750; out-of-state $40,200. Half-scollie at Colgate costs the parents about $35,000 yearly. Half scollie for a NY resident at JMU is $19,000. Johnny from Schenectady playing football at JMU on a half scollie will cost his parents about $65,000 less over four years than Johnny playing at Colgate. Fordham annually costs about $2,000 more than Colgate.
IMO, the financial crunch when it comes to fin aid is not between the PL and the Ivies, but between the PL and the public universities. A PL school cannot roster more than a two deep with full scollies, and that's the nexus of the problem. Unless a school places ten freshman on the two deep from the get-go, that means at least a quarter of the players on the two deep are on partial scolliies or are full pays. You get what you pay for.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 24, 2018 16:56:39 GMT -5
From what I have found it is true (no need to shout with capitals, is there? Does volume make an argument better?) When Ivies give more than the allowed equivalencies by playing games with numbers and pretending that free tuition is not a scholarship, then I feel it is cheating. They are not honest with how they compensate athletes. They are hardly transparent and there is a lot that is concealed. You may believe that they are open and above board. I do not. I find their apparent hypocrisy a bit revolting. I typically respect your opinion, bison, but not in this case. Be well.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 24, 2018 17:46:18 GMT -5
Georgetown is similarly non-transparent. It is possible that GU may have more equivalencies than HC has scollies.
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Post by gks on Oct 24, 2018 17:49:23 GMT -5
Georgetown is similarly non-transparent. It is possible that GU may have more equivalencies than HC has scollies. Yes. Or very close.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 25, 2018 7:11:54 GMT -5
From what I have found it is true (no need to shout with capitals, is there? Does volume make an argument better?) When Ivies give more than the allowed equivalencies by playing games with numbers and pretending that free tuition is not a scholarship, then I feel it is cheating. They are not honest with how they compensate athletes. They are hardly transparent and there is a lot that is concealed. You may believe that they are open and above board. I do not. I find their apparent hypocrisy a bit revolting. I typically respect your opinion, bison, but not in this case. Be well. I think we need precise language here. As we know, HYP cannot offer merit aid. And that prohibition includes academic and athletic merit aid. Some folks refer to academic merit aid and athletic merit aid as athletic or academic scholarships - again, those are prohibited at the Ivies.
HYP are extremely generous with financial aid. Far more generous than most other schools including HC. Financial aid at HYP does not distinguish between athletes and non-athletes.
Given that, there is no doubt HYP and Service Academies have very different systems than places like HC. Those systems may yield a competitive advantage in athletics nowadays relative to HC. That does not mean they are cheating.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 25, 2018 7:23:37 GMT -5
Good point. We do need to be precise in language. Yes, the Ivies (especially HYP) do know how to game the system to use it to their advantage in ways that others cannot. They then claim that they do not do that. OK, they are not "cheats" in that sense, but they hypocrites who are deliberately deceitful, IMO. That ban against merit aid in any form by Ivies is hysterically funny. It looks good on paper but please do not tell me that it in any way inhibits coaches who want an athlete in their program from finding the money to get it done. They do not give cash to athletes (as far as I know) like many in the Power 5 (and some others) have done, but they also do not need to. Unlike the Power 5 schools they do want their athletes to graduate and that is to their credit.
Does anyone else remember some decades back when Syracuse gave some athletes "certificates of attendance" instead of diplomas...and at other colleges athletes took custom courses - like one olympic athlete who got three credits for a course called "The placement of gym mats"? Is a diploma today much better at some of the Power 5 schools?
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Post by hcpride on Oct 25, 2018 8:10:42 GMT -5
I recall hearing that Bill Bradley's father was a bit miffed that he would have to pay full tuition for his son (perhaps the most coveted high school basketball player in America) at Princeton since there was, and is, no athletic or merit aid at Ivy institutions. As the son of a wealthy banker, Bill simply did not qualify for any financial aid.
So, it is not news that the Ivies do not give academic or athletic merit aid.
Because of their (HYP) 'new' financial aid scale, in most cases football and hoops recruits (for example) nowadays pay very very little or nothing at all to attend. Heck, 20% of Harvard's population (athlete and non-athlete) pays absolutely zero (0) to attend based on financial aid. No doubt, again, this gives HYP a great competitive advantage nowadays v schools like HC.
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Post by gks on Oct 25, 2018 8:18:37 GMT -5
I recall hearing that Bill Bradley's father was a bit miffed that he would have to pay full tuition for his son (perhaps the most coveted high school basketball player in America) at Princeton since there was, and is, no athletic or merit aid at Ivy institutions. As the son of a wealthy banker, Bill simply did not qualify for any financial aid. So, it is not news that the Ivies do not give academic or athletic merit aid. Because of their (HYP) 'new' financial aid scale, in most cases football and hoops recruits (for example) nowadays pay very very little or nothing at all to attend. Heck, 20% of Harvard's population (athlete and non-athlete) pays absolutely zero (0) to attend based on financial aid. No doubt, again, this gives HYP a great competitive advantage nowadays v schools like HC. Bill Bradley was 50+ years ago.... Kind of surprised at the way some are defending the Ivies. Their practices are kicking your (HC's) butts on the recruiting trail. Call it what you want but the players on the team are receiving aid in some form. It should be counted.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 26, 2018 8:47:16 GMT -5
I recall hearing that Bill Bradley's father was a bit miffed that he would have to pay full tuition for his son (perhaps the most coveted high school basketball player in America) at Princeton since there was, and is, no athletic or merit aid at Ivy institutions. As the son of a wealthy banker, Bill simply did not qualify for any financial aid. So, it is not news that the Ivies do not give academic or athletic merit aid. Because of their (HYP) 'new' financial aid scale, in most cases football and hoops recruits (for example) nowadays pay very very little or nothing at all to attend. Heck, 20% of Harvard's population (athlete and non-athlete) pays absolutely zero (0) to attend based on financial aid. No doubt, again, this gives HYP a great competitive advantage nowadays v schools like HC. Bill Bradley was 50+ years ago.... Kind of surprised at the way some are defending the Ivies. Their practices are kicking your (HC's) butts on the recruiting trail. Call it what you want but the players on the team are receiving aid in some form. It should be counted. Especially if a young man or woman not on scholarship goes out for a scholarship team at HC, completes a financial aid form that doesn't take into account that he/she plays sports; gets a generous aid package (because they are entitled to it based on their family's financial situation) AND "it counts", then it's not a level playing field.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 26, 2018 11:37:20 GMT -5
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 26, 2018 13:27:24 GMT -5
Does that count the recruits who were cut but kept their scholarship as they were recruited over?
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Post by lou on Oct 27, 2018 7:41:45 GMT -5
More about IL football and Dartmouth The Ivy League Becomes the Future of Football nyti.ms/2AtuUu9
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 29, 2018 15:41:21 GMT -5
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Post by bison137 on Oct 29, 2018 21:08:07 GMT -5
Does that count the recruits who were cut but kept their scholarship as they were recruited over? No recruits at Harvard receive scholarships. Everyone - athlete and non-athlete alike - receives whatever need-based aid they qualify for. Since this aid is not associated with playing a sport or being a recruit, once someone is admitted they can't lose any financial aid whether or not they play the sport. If a recruited athlete quits his sport on Day 1, he will receive the same aid for four years as if he had played for those four years.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 29, 2018 21:19:42 GMT -5
That just warms the cockles of my heart to hear.
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Post by bison137 on Oct 29, 2018 23:02:49 GMT -5
Bill Bradley was 50+ years ago.... Kind of surprised at the way some are defending the Ivies. Their practices are kicking your (HC's) butts on the recruiting trail. Call it what you want but the players on the team are receiving aid in some form. It should be counted. Especially if a young man or woman not on scholarship goes out for a scholarship team at HC, completes a financial aid form that doesn't take into account that he/she plays sports; gets a generous aid package (because they are entitled to it based on their family's financial situation) AND "it counts", then it's not a level playing field. In the situation you have described, the need-based aid would NOT count and the student-athlete would not be a counter.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 30, 2018 7:25:45 GMT -5
Does that count the recruits who were cut but kept their scholarship as they were recruited over? No recruits at Harvard receive scholarships. Everyone - athlete and non-athlete alike - receives whatever need-based aid they qualify for. Since this aid is not associated with playing a sport or being a recruit, once someone is admitted they can't lose any financial aid whether or not they play the sport. If a recruited athlete quits his sport on Day 1, he will receive the same aid for four years as if he had played for those four years. Thank you Bison. I was aware of all of that. I also know that virtually all athletes at Harvard are on scholarship. Some were, in fact, "recruited over" since they knew they would no longer play and they had lost a spot on the team. If that was a part of their reason for attending Harvard, they might have been happier elsewhere. Ivy tuition is so high they have a huge pool to whom they can give scholarship aid...bigger than most colleges. I know they do not call scholarships given to athletes "athletic" scholarships though that is, in effect, exactly what they are. They can even give scholarships to athletes just to try them out and still have them around if they do not meet the grade. After all, attending an Ivy League college for free is a huge gift
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