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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 9, 2018 14:46:07 GMT -5
With 2018 Fall seasons either having mercifully come to a close, with the exception of Football & Volleyball that each have two games remaining, I took a quick look back at how teams have performed over the last several years. As posted in the BC thread, over the past 2+ years (16-17, 17-18, 18-19 YTD), the total record of the 12 D1 teams that keep a record is 245-452-31 for a total winning percentage of .358. A summary of a few key data points, along with a comparison of how teams fared in Dick Regan’s final two years as AD (11-12, 12-13). (For the sake of this comparison, the “primary teams” are Men’s Basketball, Football, and Men’s Hockey) Winning RecordsPine: # of teams with winning season over past 2+ years (29 complete seasons): 0 Regan: # of teams with winning season over final 2 years (24 complete seasons): 9 2-Year ResultsPine
Total record over past two full seasons (e.g. 17-18 & 18-19 for Soccer): 213-390-26 ( .359) # of teams with a total 2-year winning record over past 2 seasons: 0 of 12 Regan
Total record over final two full seasons: 257-380-15 ( .406) # of teams with a total 2-year winning record over final 2 seasons: 4 of 122-Year Results (Primary Sports) Pine
Total record over past two full seasons for primary sports: 62-81-14 ( .439) # of primary teams with winning season over past 2 years: 0 of 6Regan
Total record over final two full seasons for primary sports: 75-75-7 ( .500) # of primary teams with winning season over past 2 years: 3 of 6 Sport-by-Sport 2-Year Comparison
(ranked from top to bottom by Regan record) Sport | Regan Final 2 | Pine Last 2 | W% Change | M Hockey | .572 | .472 | -10% | Baseball | .565 | .429 | -14% | W Basketball | .561 | .344 | -22% | W Lacrosse | .514 | .371 | -14% | M Basketball | .458 | .429 | -3% | M Lacrosse | .400 | .321 | -8% | Football | .364 | .364 | 0% | W Soccer | .286 | .324 | +4% | M Soccer | .265 | .378 | +11% | Softball | .247 | .284 | +4% | Volleyball | .213 | .214 | 0% | Field Hockey | .086 | .286 | +20% |
Sport-by-Sport Summary:- The only teams that have improved were the worst teams under Regan (abysmal winning percentages below .300), but the highest winning percentage in this group still sits at a slightly less abysmal .378.
- The top 6 (half) of the teams in Regan’s final two years have regressed, with 5 of the 6 having regressed by 8% or more.
- Each of the 4 teams with a winning record over their final two seasons with Regan have regressed by at least 10%.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 9, 2018 15:06:34 GMT -5
Yeah, but now we have the Luth, a nicer real grass field in Fitton and took down those offensive scoreboard signs.
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Post by crosspride on Nov 9, 2018 15:16:19 GMT -5
Hard to argue with those facts. I think the comparisons to Regan are especially important. Regan’s results got him fired, and during his tenure, many considered him a failure as an AD . Pine’s influence has caused clear regression, yet many are happy with his performance and hires?
Very inportant year for basketball, and very important season in 2019 for Pine. Both seasons need to be exceptional.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 9, 2018 15:39:52 GMT -5
The Luth and improved social media presence are masking what actually matters.
Pine isn’t getting it done. Period.
Caro, it would be most interesting to break out the records of coaches in which Pine has hired. I imagine that would be an ugly figure.
Lest we forget that our “team of the year” last year and the last program to post a winning record and reach an NCAA Tournamnet were coached by DR hires.
As the long last HC70 would say: “Sad. So sad.”
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 9, 2018 16:00:20 GMT -5
The Luth and improved social media presence are masking what actually matters. Pine isn’t getting it done. Period. Caro, it would be most interesting to break out the records of coaches in which Pine has hired. I imagine that would be an ugly figure. Lest we forget that our “team of the year” last year and the last program to post a winning record and reach an NCAA Tournamnet were coached by DR hires. As the long last HC70 would say: “Sad. So sad.” Teams coached by Pine hires over the past 2+ years: 159-313-20 ( .343) Teams coached by Regan hires over the past 2+ years: 86-139-11 ( .388) *Pine coaches slightly more abysmal than Regan hiresTeams coached by Pine hires over past 2 full seasons: 132-261-18 ( .343) Teams coached by Pine hires over last 2 DR seasons (under DR coach): 144-267-11 ( .354) *Teams going from bad to worse under Pine's coachesTeams coached by Regan hires over past 2 full seasons: 81-129-8 ( .390) Teams coached by Regan hires over last 2 DR seasons: 113-113-4 ( .500) *Despite the increased tweeting and hype videos under Pine's leadership, these teams have gotten worse than they were in Regan's final two years
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Nov 9, 2018 17:55:37 GMT -5
I had a huge day playing CD today——will answer this recent athletics fund solicitation and fund a couple of recruiting trips for ADNP’s coaches so we can improve these WL records
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 9, 2018 18:33:14 GMT -5
I had a huge day playing CD today——will answer this recent athletics fund solicitation and fund a couple of recruiting trips for ADNP’s coaches so we can improve these WL records Very generous of you, but recruiting budgets are about the last thing wrong with HC athletics these days. Given the clear evidence above, it’s almost like betting on a horse with 3 legs.
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Post by purplehaze on Nov 9, 2018 21:29:20 GMT -5
With tonight’s volleyball loss to navy, it’s official - another complete fall season of sports and not a single team qualified for the league playoffs. There is definitely something wrong on the hill.
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Post by nhteamer on Nov 10, 2018 11:04:53 GMT -5
I will believe in the direction of HC athletics when somebody/anybody in power tells "our Jesuit brethren" (what a friggin' joke that is) Fordham and Georgetown that they SHALL play three Patriot League schools in basketball ( YES, they need to give up their St. Leo and North Texas State games!) every year or, henceforth, they are not associate members and play PL football.
PALEESE, ya think that the reputation of the vaunted PL will be affected?
Grow a pair!
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Post by nhteamer on Nov 10, 2018 11:05:51 GMT -5
oooh, toxic masculinty?
Like Captain McDavitt had?
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Post by crusader12 on Nov 10, 2018 14:10:48 GMT -5
The State of Holy Cross Athletics is an endless downward spiral with no end in sight.
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Post by Chu Chu on Nov 12, 2018 12:11:02 GMT -5
2 years is not enough time to turn the tide and establish a trend. Those who have studied statistics know that the statistics above are not a trend, and really just represent noise, at this point. The establishment of the Crusader Athletic Fund, the new facilities and the improved support from college leadership will bring fruit eventually. I think that this year in basketball will be an example. Go Cross!
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 12, 2018 12:49:40 GMT -5
2 years is not enough time to turn the tide and establish a trend. Those who have studied statistics know that the statistics above are not a trend, and really just represent noise, at this point. The establishment of the Crusader Athletic Fund, the new facilities and the improved support from college leadership will bring fruit eventually. I think that this year in basketball will be an example. Go Cross! -Nate Pine was hired December, 2013 -- this is his 5th full academic year. -The Crusader Athletic Fund was established in 2007 -- funding and budgets are not among the top 5 issues facing HC athletics right now.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 13, 2018 6:52:11 GMT -5
The metric is flawed and superficial. The better metric(s) would compare W-L factoring in strength of schedule, or limit it to competition in the PL. Bill Gibbons has watered down the OOC schedule for HC for the past several seasons in the hope of improving the W-L percentage.
Then one would also weight for the number of rostered players with scollies. As has been discussed in the past, FCRW's W-L percentages were enhanced in those years when HC had a scollie advantage of the rest of the PL, save AU. Bill Gibbons likewise.
When one looks at field sports, e.g., lacrosse, Army and Navy are full scollie rosters, and Loyola and BostU max out on scollies to the NCAA cap. HC not so much, and is often at the back of the PL pack when it comes to scollies.
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Post by gks on Nov 13, 2018 8:43:40 GMT -5
The major flaw of Nate's tenure here at Holy Cross is the inability to attract and bring in talent. Whether that's his fault or not I don't know.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 13, 2018 10:07:17 GMT -5
The metric is flawed and superficial. The better metric(s) would compare W-L factoring in strength of schedule, or limit it to competition in the PL. Bill Gibbons has watered down the OOC schedule for HC for the past several seasons in the hope of improving the W-L percentage. Then one would also weight for the number of rostered players with scollies. As has been discussed in the past, FCRW's W-L percentages were enhanced in those years when HC had a scollie advantage of the rest of the PL, save AU. Bill Gibbons likewise. When one looks at field sports, e.g., lacrosse, Army and Navy are full scollie rosters, and Loyola and BostU max out on scollies to the NCAA cap. HC not so much, and is often at the back of the PL pack when it comes to scollies. Nope. -The winning % for W Basketball has gone down 22 points, despite your claim that the schedule is weaker -The two years of M Basketball included in the comparison were both with Milan Brown Schedules for all sports have been essentially unchanged from 11-12 & 12-13 to 16-17 & 17-18, especially considering that it is a two-year window which can remove outliers. There are 629 games included in the 2-year Pine total, and 652 games included in the 2-year Regan total - more than enough data points to start drawing some conclusions. It doesn't take a scientific mathematical experiment that combines strength of schedule, scholarships, budgets, opponents, etc. to prove that Pine is not a capable D1 Athletic Director. These straightforward W-L comparisons just provide further proof to the evidence that already exists for anyone who has been paying attention.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 13, 2018 10:30:23 GMT -5
You get what you are willing to pay for:
Total spending 2012-13 / 2016-17
Men's lax AU 0 / 0 Bost U 0 / 1.6M Bucknell .565M / .675M Colgate 1.0M / 1.1M HC .358M / .688M Lafayette ,460M .828M Lehigh 1.3M / 1.4M Loyola 1.5M / 1.8M [Georgetown 1.3 M / 1.4M]
Women's lax AU .284M / .450M Bost U 1.2M / 1.4M Bucknell .399M / 1.0M Colgate .829M/ 1.2M HC .488M / .772M Lafayette .637M / 1.1M Lehigh .720M / 1.0M Loyola 1.2M / 1.3M [Georgetown 1.1M / 1.2M]
When one adds in the USMA and USNA, in 2016-17 HC was fighting with Bucknell for who was on the bottom rung in men's lacrosse, and was 9th of 10 teams when it came to spending on women's lacrosse. Why would a successful Div I head coach in lacrosse come to HC to coach this sport.
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Post by gks on Nov 13, 2018 11:07:09 GMT -5
No offense to lacrosse fans out there but you've got many more problems than finishing at the bottom of the PL.
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Post by CHC8485 on Nov 13, 2018 11:11:57 GMT -5
Gee, if only there were a way to measure all our sports against our primary competition and see if we're getting better or worse. Hmmmm. Fortunately the Patriot League issues a press release at the end of every May that does just that. Holy Cross' Patriot League Presidents' Cup finish 2011 - 2018
| 2010 (8 teams) | 2011 (8 teams) | 2012 (8 teams) | 2013 (8 teams) | 2014 (10 teams) | 2015 (10 teams) | 2016 (10 Teams) | 2017 (10 teams) | 2018 (10 teams) | Men | 7 | 8 | 8 | 8 | 6 (tied) | 8 | 7 | 8 | 8 | Women | 6 | 7 | 8 | 6 | 7 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 6 | Overall | 7 | 8 | 8 | 6 | 7 | 7 | 6 | 6 | 7 |
So we went from, generally, 7th or 8th in an 8 team league, to, generally, 6th or 7th in a 10 team league. And to pick the same 4 random years and compare, (can't include this year for another 6 months or so) ... 2011 & 2012 - Averaged 8 out of 8 teams 2017 & 2018 - Averaged 6.5 out of 10 teams. Which says in performance against our primary competiton we are treading water to slightly better overall. Not exactly what any of us want, but also not dogs and cats living together, wrath of God type of stuff, either.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Nov 13, 2018 11:22:15 GMT -5
That's a very good measure but incomplete in that it does not include baseball, hockey, some other sports
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Post by CHC8485 on Nov 13, 2018 11:24:01 GMT -5
Why does it not include baseball??
You are right about hockey. Not sure what other sports Holy Cross sponsors that are not played in the PL.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 13, 2018 12:43:40 GMT -5
Why does it not include baseball?? You are right about hockey. Not sure what other sports Holy Cross sponsors that are not played in the PL. It should include baseball. As noted it would not include ice hockey: nor water polo, nor wrestling. Whether it includes women's rowing, I haven't a clue. It would not include men's rowing.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Nov 13, 2018 12:45:44 GMT -5
Why does it not include baseball?? You are right about hockey. Not sure what other sports Holy Cross sponsors that are not played in the PL. Probably my error again- I was thinking that because some schools do not play baseball that the sport would not be included in calculations
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Post by purplehaze on Nov 13, 2018 15:49:11 GMT -5
We know the allocation of resources is different for each school and sport, but my big concern is the lack of a strategy to find a few olympic sports where we can compete 'realistically' for a league title occasionally - is that too much to ask ? (so far it is from my standpoint)
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 13, 2018 18:15:20 GMT -5
It may be...but it should NOT be that way, IMHO.
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