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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 14, 2018 17:46:33 GMT -5
I'm optimistic about Coach Carmody--I think he is going to move the program significantly forward. I really like our Sophomore class and think it will come to be regarded as a very special class. Think about this: wasn't Jacob Grandison the 6th player the staff landed? He's high-po for a guy added after many other coaches would have said their recruiting class was finished. Here are the marks I am expecting to hit 19 or more wins this year 20+ wins and play in PL championship game by next season 20+ wins and win PL championship by 20-21 As last night showed, we are in serious trouble inside when Floyd graduates. We have NOBODY behind him. Assuming that you're also talking more long term, Bill Carmody will be 68 years old when this group of Sophomores are Seniors in 2 years. That is not exactly an ideal scenario for when you will be turning over 45% of your roster and likely the vast majority of your minutes in the following season.* *Note: I making an assumption that all 6 of the Sophomores will remain eligible & enrolled in school for all four years.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 14, 2018 18:08:21 GMT -5
Calipari, 71, Coach K, 71, face a massive turnover (far higher than 45%) in personnel most seasons. They seem to handle it pretty well
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Post by WorcesterGray on Nov 14, 2018 18:10:59 GMT -5
Calipari, 71, Coach K, 71, face a massive turnover (far higher than 45%) in personnel most seasons. They seem to handle it pretty well Slightly different recruiting profile . . . jeesh.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 14, 2018 18:13:04 GMT -5
Calipari, 71, Coach K, 71, face a massive turnover (far higher than 45%) in personnel most seasons. They seem to handle it pretty well If Carmody was recruiting at the same level as those two, I'd want him around until he was 90. On one hand you have 6'7 285 Zion Williamson, on the other hand you have 6'10 201 (maybe) Blake Verbeek....one may require slightly more time and development.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 14, 2018 18:19:08 GMT -5
BBC, My response dealt with your point regarding Carmody’s age and lineup turnover, not quality of recruits. I made the mistake of thinking you would recognize that in my referencing those 2 septuagenarians.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Nov 14, 2018 18:23:02 GMT -5
. . . on the other hand you have 6'10 201 (maybe) Blake Verbeek. I have to admit, I'm fascinated by Verbeek. He sounds like a 2-guard trapped in a 6-10 body, but who knows? Hope we will get to see him some this OOC.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Nov 14, 2018 18:26:42 GMT -5
BBC, My response dealt with your point regarding Carmody’s age and lineup turnover, not quality of recruits. I made the mistake of thinking you would recognize that in my referencing those 2 septuagenarians. Speaking of our fellow septuagenarians, Jim Calhoun (76) is off to a 3-0 start at the University of St. Joseph. Rollie coached until he was 82.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 14, 2018 18:31:52 GMT -5
BBC, My response dealt with your point regarding Carmody’s age and lineup turnover, not quality of recruits. I made the mistake of thinking you would recognize that in my referencing those 2 septuagenarians. I understood your point. But my point was that one group of recruits (the guys we're getting) require A LOT more work and development than the other group (the guys Duke & Kentucky are getting). The idea that Carmody can coach until he's 71/72 just because K & Calipari do is not really a complete argument considering the fact that K & Cal are winning ~80% of their games at their schools, while Carmody is winning ~45% of his games at HC.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 14, 2018 18:41:05 GMT -5
I believe that knowing many college coaches over the years, quality of players is not the determinant about who works harder. Coaches Cal, K and CBC are all known for their hard work, regardless of age. They have all worked hard since they were young coaches.
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Post by possum on Nov 14, 2018 18:57:47 GMT -5
Hey Hoops Calipari is only 59 a kid compared to Carmody.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 14, 2018 19:10:50 GMT -5
My bad How about Ol’ Roy, 68
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Post by crosspride on Nov 14, 2018 19:45:30 GMT -5
The incessant complaining from a couple of posters have driven me away from this place. I was at the game last night and am not even motivated to share any observations because of the constant axe-grinding here. Every thread, every topic, same handful of posters. We're in-season now, I don't understand why people can't put the axes away and focus on this team's outlook. Put your axes away until April. This is a message board to debate basketball. A poster started a thread saying Bil Carmody is a great coach without any supporting evidence. Don’t you think this would immediately lead to counterpoints? If you don’t want to debate or read that, probably a smart move to stay away during basketball season. We have a coach who has won fewer than 50% of his games. Totally fair for some to second guess, especially after suspensions/expulsions in 2 of his 3 classes. If he proves he can coach up a team to the top of the league, and wins the PL with a team that can at least challenge P5 teams, the criticisms are harder to justify. On the league title and many posters suggesting we’ll automatically improve YoY, I don’t agree. Floyd is very good, and the only guy who could compete defensively with Providence last night. While the sophs will improve, we lose a skill set in Floyd that will not be replaced. I think we’ll have a better chance this year than next.
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Post by sader81 on Nov 14, 2018 20:17:56 GMT -5
On the league title and many posters suggesting we’ll automatically improve YoY, I don’t agree. Floyd is very good, and the only guy who could compete defensively with Providence last night. While the sophs will improve, we lose a skill set in Floyd that will not be replaced. I think we’ll have a better chance this year than next. HC built a first half lead and was leading at halftime against both Providence and Michigan while Floyd sat on the bench in foul trouble. They lost the lead in both games when he returned. Not saying he’s not a good player, he is! But I think what’s left is pretty good also, and should only get better. Losses against two good teams early on do not a season make, and it’s a long season!
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Nov 14, 2018 20:18:17 GMT -5
Say what you will about Pine (and I know some of you will say them), but he's at least demonstrated that he's willing to fire coaches who aren't delivering. So I don't think calling for Carmody's pink slip every time Austin Butler misses a layup is really adding any value around here.
Pine has not fired anyone who he has hired, for the record. For the record- who hired Lattimore?
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Post by Ray on Nov 14, 2018 20:51:26 GMT -5
Say what you will about Pine (and I know some of you will say them), but he's at least demonstrated that he's willing to fire coaches who aren't delivering. So I don't think calling for Carmody's pink slip every time Austin Butler misses a layup is really adding any value around here.
Pine has not fired anyone who he has hired, for the record.
Yeah, this was a predictable response. Give the rest of us some credit for being aware of these things too. Again, the difference is that some of us don't mention them in every.darn.post.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 14, 2018 20:59:36 GMT -5
Pine has not fired anyone who he has hired, for the record. For the record- who hired Lattimore? I never saw a press release that Lattimore was fired.
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Post by crosspride on Nov 14, 2018 23:00:26 GMT -5
On the league title and many posters suggesting we’ll automatically improve YoY, I don’t agree. Floyd is very good, and the only guy who could compete defensively with Providence last night. While the sophs will improve, we lose a skill set in Floyd that will not be replaced. I think we’ll have a better chance this year than next. HC built a first half lead and was leading at halftime against both Providence and Michigan while Floyd sat on the bench in foul trouble. They lost the lead in both games when he returned. Not saying he’s not a good player, he is! But I think what’s left is pretty good also, and should only get better. Losses against two good teams early on do not a season make, and it’s a long season! Can't speak to the Michigan game, but for the Providence game this is incorrect. In fact, the opposite is true. Floyd picked up his 2nd foul with about 10 min left in the 1st half. At that time, HC was up 2. At half, HC was up 4. That's not building a lead, but they certainly held their own. Floyd the started the 2nd half, they built the lead to 8 (on a dunk by Floyd) in the first 2 minutes, and he picked up his 3rd foul with 18 min left. He was removed from the game. Lead got up to 9 about 1 minute later, then started to slip away while Floyd was sitting. Providence cut it to 3, so Carmody has to sub Floyd back in with 15 min left. Providence's spurt slows, but continues and they take the lead by 3 at the 11 minute mark. Floyd picks up his 4th, and Carmody takes him out with 10:33 remaining and Providence up 3. Providence then scored 6 straight over the next minute while Floyd was on the bench, took the lead by 9. Then, Floyd comes back in with 4 fouls, and HC goes on a 9-2 run cutting the lead to 2. Floyd fouls out with 4 min left and HC down 3. Providence was +6 the rest of the way, and won by 9. Two games is too small of a sample to make the determination anyway. In general, he does things on defense no one else on HC (or the PL for that matter) can do. He can rebound with anyone, something HC struggles with as a team. That's why I think this is the year to win.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Nov 14, 2018 23:50:20 GMT -5
Fantastic recap/analysis--thank you for sharing this with us
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Post by WorcesterGray on Nov 15, 2018 6:52:12 GMT -5
Two games is too small of a sample to make the determination anyway. In general, he does things on defense no one else on HC (or the PL for that matter) can do. He can rebound with anyone, something HC struggles with as a team. That's why I think this is the year to win. Agreed. The decision to concede the boards at the offensive end is a strategic one, and I understand why Carmody does this. There are a number of successful teams that do that, just as there are (fewer) successful teams whose offensive approach limits the number of trips to the line they make. But I'm unaware of any strategy that accepts poor defensive rebounding. Unfortunately, this is a problem most of Carmody's teams have had since he left Princeton.
Two years is, indeed, a small sample size. Sixteen years is not.
DR% Rank 17-18. 292 16-17. 312 15-16. 178
12-13. 318 11-12. 317 10-11. 74 09-10. 193 08-09. 273 07-08. 315 06-07. 325 05-06. 223 04-05. 144 03-04. 306 02-03. 317 01-02. 189 00-01. 297
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Post by hcpride on Nov 15, 2018 7:11:03 GMT -5
HC built a first half lead and was leading at halftime against both Providence and Michigan while Floyd sat on the bench in foul trouble. They lost the lead in both games when he returned. Not saying he’s not a good player, he is! But I think what’s left is pretty good also, and should only get better. Losses against two good teams early on do not a season make, and it’s a long season! Two games is too small of a sample to make the determination anyway. In general, he does things on defense no one else on HC (or the PL for that matter) can do. He can rebound with anyone, something HC struggles with as a team. That's why I think this is the year to win. I think a few posters don't realize that we are not likely to see a player like JF recruited or emerge in the next few years at Holy Cross. Instead of focusing on the belief that we start many sophomores and therefore our team will improve over the next two years relative to our competition (a dubious proposition to start with BTW), those same folks might want to gauge the dramatic impact of JF's graduation. This is the year to win.
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Post by sader81 on Nov 15, 2018 7:36:12 GMT -5
Two games is too small of a sample to make the determination anyway. In general, he does things on defense no one else on HC (or the PL for that matter) can do. He can rebound with anyone, something HC struggles with as a team. That's why I think this is the year to win. I think a few posters don't realize that we are not likely to see a player like JF recruited or emerge in the next few years at Holy Cross. Instead of focusing on the fact that we start many sophomores and therefore our team will improve over the next two years relative to our competition (a dubious proposition to start with BTW), those same folks might want to gauge the dramatic impact of JF's graduation. This is the year to win. Most of the time, players progress between sophomore and senior year, but there are exceptions. We don’t need to look far back to see the progression of MMiller and JF over their last two years. Our current Sophs are very promising. They will bring different game without JF and Benzan. Niego and Faw right now are no slouches, but they do not rebound or play defense nearly as well as Floyd. But they bring a different dynamic, as they are both true outside shooting threats, and can shoot foul shots, which are weak points of JF’s game. I fully agree that this is the year to win; however, if the team gets even near “Whearty-like” progression out of our young bigs, the ‘20-21 team will be a lot more than good. All that said, there is no reason why HC can be very good over the next three years, starting right now.
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Post by hcpride on Nov 15, 2018 8:05:46 GMT -5
I think a few posters don't realize that we are not likely to see a player like JF recruited or emerge in the next few years at Holy Cross. Instead of focusing on the fact that we start many sophomores and therefore our team will improve over the next two years relative to our competition (a dubious proposition to start with BTW), those same folks might want to gauge the dramatic impact of JF's graduation. This is the year to win. Most of the time, players progress between sophomore and senior year, but there are exceptions. We don’t need to look far back to see the progression of MMiller and JF over their last two years. Our current Sophs are very promising. They will bring different game without JF and Benzan. Niego and Faw right now are no slouches, but they do not rebound or play defense nearly as well as Floyd. But they bring a different dynamic, as they are both true outside shooting threats, and can shoot foul shots, which are weak points of JF’s game. I fully agree that this is the year to win; however, if the team gets even near “Whearty-like” progression out of our young bigs, the ‘20-21 team will be a lot more than good. All that said, there is no reason why HC can be very good over the next three years, starting right now. No doubt players generally improve. Whether they improve greatly or improve relative to their competition is another matter altogether. (Those players are also improving).
It is possible to have outstanding frosh who continue to improve - we did play against a few last year.
Friday's game v SBU will show us how we do v an AE team that starts 1 frosh, 2 sophs (redshirts), 1 junior (redshirt) , and 1 senior point guard.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 15, 2018 8:26:45 GMT -5
That group should really be thought of as 1 frosh, 2 juniors and 2 seniors. Redshirt players can be a huge addition and it is not really accurate to think of them as 2 sophs and 1 junior.
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Post by Tom on Nov 15, 2018 9:16:26 GMT -5
I fully agree that this is the year to win; however, if the team gets even near “Whearty-like” progression out of our young bigs, the ‘20-21 team will be a lot more than good. That's asking a lot. Not an indictment on Faw, Niego, or Verbeek, Whearty's progressions was kind of spectacular
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Post by hcpride on Nov 15, 2018 10:20:58 GMT -5
That group should really be thought of as 1 frosh, 2 juniors and 2 seniors. Redshirt players can be a huge addition and it is not really accurate to think of them as 2 sophs and 1 junior. That is one reason why I wrote it that way: "Friday's game v SBU will show us how we do v an AE team that starts 1 frosh, 2 sophs (redshirts), 1 junior (redshirt) , and 1 senior point guard."
But, when we talk about our youngish starting five and speculatively declare they will improve relative to our competition because they are youngish (a dubious proposition at best ), one has to remember that the competition also has players with plenty of time to improve. SBU is one such opponent.
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