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Post by hc87 on Nov 16, 2018 1:13:51 GMT -5
Just seems like it's an increasingly, over-looked level of football. Many of the FCS power teams of the last 25 years have gone FBS, attendance at this level is increasingly very poor..outside of the Ivies and some CAA programs, is it really a level we want to play at?
I realize it's a level that works for us due to our school size, academic profile etc....but it just seems like a level that has no growth potential for a program overall. Do we really care about beating programs Sam Houston St, Eastern Washington, South Dakota St et. al?
Just think that hard decisions have to be made with regards to football at HC moving forward.....it's obviously a fluid situation...will college football exist in 10, 20 years?
I just don't think FCS football is our best option. It's an expensive undergoing with very little payoff....aside from playing the Ivy League schools imo.
Curious what others think here.
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Post by joe on Nov 16, 2018 6:49:37 GMT -5
I think the whole notion of divisions in college athletics should be re-evaluated by the NCAA. I believe schools should be able to have sports programs with the fluidity to grow, shrink, recruit, admit, schedule, or otherwise adapt to internal and external influences at the discretion of the individual schools and leagues. The NCAA can certainly continue to broadly govern large items like scholarship limits but should be more focused on reducing corruption in recruiting and in other areas, and encouraging an academic baseline across all sports. I’d also be fine with the growth of minor league pro sports for kids who have no intention of going to college to study. This will never happen because the NCAA would go broke.
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Post by hcpride on Nov 16, 2018 7:36:31 GMT -5
'87 - As you probably know, when Hofstra pulled the plug on schollie FCS football their president cited the very high financial cost as well as the idea that the road to prominence/stronger academic reputation did not run thru FCS football. One suspects the presidents of BU and Northeastern thought the same when they pulled the plug. (This is not to suggest HC, Hofstra, Northeastern, and BU are identical institutions.)
To disagree with your other point, teams/schools in the playoffs are very happy to be there and really want to beat their opposition whether it is Western Carolina, James Madison, or one of the Dakotas. I suspect the fans and kids at Colgate will be psyched about the playoffs, hoping for a first round bye, and calculating their odds v their first opponent - or at least psyched beyond the level of their PL matchups.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 16, 2018 7:47:58 GMT -5
Here's what I think after seeing that you started this thread . . . . . I am starting to re-evaluate whether or not you are the author of the "Holy Cross Stinks in Sports" article in "The Spire." [Ugh, that hurts to even type that name!] Seriously, we are in this division and will remain within it as long as football remains a sport in colleges and assuming it doesn't get banned if/when they find out that it is too dangerous to play. As long as Ivies play the sport, we will too, at their level. We will give it up before we would drop down to Assumption level as attendance by a shrinking alumni base (read donors) would disappear.
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Post by trimster on Nov 16, 2018 8:47:40 GMT -5
Just seems like it's an increasingly, over-looked level of football. Many of the FCS power teams of the last 25 years have gone FBS, attendance at this level is increasingly very poor..outside of the Ivies and some CAA programs, is it really a level we want to play at? I realize it's a level that works for us due to our school size, academic profile etc....but it just seems like a level that has no growth potential for a program overall. Do we really care about beating programs Sam Houston St, Eastern Washington, South Dakota St et. al? Just think that hard decisions have to be made with regards to football at HC moving forward.....it's obviously a fluid situation...will college football exist in 10, 20 years? I just don't think FCS football is our best option. It's an expensive undergoing with very little payoff....aside from playing the Ivy League schools imo. Curious what others think here. HC football has to be losing a lot of money in football. I suspect the same is true for the PL in general. We don't have the deep pockets of the Ivy League so you have to wonder how long this can continue.
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Post by nhteamer on Nov 16, 2018 8:53:01 GMT -5
The FCS was created because at the time the TV model was such that the FBS schools wanted the FCS school out
That has all changed
Why just stop the distinction altogether
We want 'Bama!
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evan
Freshman
Posts: 13
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Post by evan on Nov 16, 2018 8:55:35 GMT -5
I just don't think FCS football is our best option. It's an expensive undergoing with very little payoff....aside from playing the Ivy League schools imo. Curious what others think here. I believe basketball and hockey should remain Division 1, therefore given the NCAA rules the only options for football are: - FBS football: not a feasible option for HC in my opinion and I believe most would agree - Drop football: maybe a consideration if only immediate financial impacts are considered, not currently in the best long term interest of the school in my opinion. which leaves - FCS football: the best viable option in my opinion. I am surprised you donot think this is our best option hc87. What viable option do you see as being better at this time? Are you actually in the drop football camp now?
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 16, 2018 8:59:34 GMT -5
Just seems like it's an increasingly, over-looked level of football. Many of the FCS power teams of the last 25 years have gone FBS, attendance at this level is increasingly very poor..outside of the Ivies and some CAA programs, is it really a level we want to play at? I realize it's a level that works for us due to our school size, academic profile etc....but it just seems like a level that has no growth potential for a program overall. Do we really care about beating programs Sam Houston St, Eastern Washington, South Dakota St et. al?Just think that hard decisions have to be made with regards to football at HC moving forward.....it's obviously a fluid situation...will college football exist in 10, 20 years? I just don't think FCS football is our best option. It's an expensive undergoing with very little payoff....aside from playing the Ivy League schools imo. Curious what others think here. We know ihoop doesn't care. Your opinion has been regurgitated many a time here and on AGS. Others would care -- we travelled quite well for our last FCS playoff game.
You are right about the gradual decline of FCS football in the Northeast but the level is doing just fine nationally and even becoming MORE viable in many parts of the country.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Nov 16, 2018 9:10:57 GMT -5
How many years in a row is this thread going to be repeated?
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 16, 2018 9:13:20 GMT -5
I just don't think FCS football is our best option. It's an expensive undergoing with very little payoff....aside from playing the Ivy League schools imo. Curious what others think here. I believe basketball and hockey should remain Division 1, therefore given the NCAA rules the only options for football are: - FBS football: not a feasible option for HC in my opinion and I believe most would agree - Drop football: maybe a consideration if only immediate financial impacts are considered, not currently in the best long term interest of the school in my opinion. which leaves - FCS football: the best viable option in my opinion. I am surprised you donot think this is our best option hc87. What viable option do you see as being better at this time? Are you actually in the drop football camp now?I could write a book on HC87's opinions on Holy Cross football:
1) While he's in the acceptance stage of the fact that the PL ruined HC basketball, he believes that it is actually the "right level" for football. 2) The alumni engagement that football brings to the table can't be replaced by another sport -- Homecoming, Family Weekend, BC game, etc. 3) The 5-game OOC schedule that the PL allows is great because we get multiple games every year against the Ivies 4) Did I mention he likes that we play against the Ivies? 5) FCS football is a dying breed in New England, sort of like college baseball 6) Tom Gilmore needed to go about 3 years ago -- and why are we hiring a new coach out of mighty....Assumption? "Lee Hull done dirty" 7) NOBODY CAHEEESSS ABOUT THE FCS PLAYAWWFS
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Post by gks on Nov 16, 2018 9:13:28 GMT -5
The NCAA is very top-heavy now. I don't think the difference between the non-P5 FBS and FCS schools is that great. Let the big boys play themselves and realign D1 merging rest of FBS and FCS.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 16, 2018 9:33:13 GMT -5
If Division II and III football are able to survive, then so, too, will the FCS.
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Post by jkh67 on Nov 16, 2018 10:17:19 GMT -5
We have five options for the football program: 1. Move from the FCS to the FBS level. Not viable for a variety of obvious reasons. 2. Drop down to Division III. Certainly possible, but not an appealing prospect for a school with a long Division I football tradition and close athletic associations with FCS schools that would likely start to disappear from the schedule. 3. Drop football entirely. There is some logic to this, especially from the financial standpoint. I could see it happening in 5 years or so if the program doesn't do significantly better under Chesney. 4. Keep muddling along in the PL, regardless of league quality or how well HC does in it. The most likely outcome for a number of reasons, unless program financial cost becomes outcome determinative. 5. Join the CAA in football. Probably the best outcome from a purely football standpoint. But, among other things, it assumes that the CAA would be interested in having HC as a member.
I'd like to think that the college administration is thinking seriously about its long-term strategy for football. But who knows?
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Post by timholycross on Nov 16, 2018 10:19:28 GMT -5
The FCS was created because at the time the TV model was such that the FBS schools wanted the FCS school out That has all changed Why just stop the distinction altogether We want 'Bama! Yes, you're right. Plus the restriction on number of tv appearances per school was lifted.
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Post by timholycross on Nov 16, 2018 10:27:16 GMT -5
We have five options for the football program: 1. Move from the FCS to the FBS level. Not viable for a variety of obvious reasons. 2. Drop down to Division III. Certainly possible, but not an appealing prospect for a school with a long Division I football tradition and close athletic associations with FCS schools that would likely start to disappear from the schedule. 3. Drop football entirely. There is some logic to this, especially from the financial standpoint. I could see it happening in 5 years or so if the program doesn't do significantly better under Chesney. 4. Keep muddling along in the PL, regardless of league quality or how well HC does in it. The most likely outcome for a number of reasons, unless program financial cost becomes outcome determinative. 5. Join the CAA in football. Probably the best outcome from a purely football standpoint. But, among other things, it assumes that the CAA would be interested in having HC as a member. I'd like to think that the college administration is thinking seriously about its long-term strategy for football. But who knows? I assume #2 means "drop down to Division III (or II) in all sports". Because "for football only" cannot happen under current rules. #5 is only an option if that conference decides to go to divisions (north south) to cut costs. James Madison to UNH is over 600 miles, Elon to Maine* is 969! Both were scheduled games in the CAA this year. I'm sure there are other long treks and some of those places aren't close to decent sized airports either. I would love a league with URI/UMaine/UNH/SBU/Albany. *Maine could win that league this year!
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Post by captainkarl on Nov 16, 2018 10:34:05 GMT -5
Just doin' a lil math, you guys. Hear me out.
HC beat Yale... Yale beat Maine... Maine beat Villanova (Villa-no-fun)... Villanova beat Temple...Temple beat Maryland....Maryland beat Texas...Texas beat Oklahoma (Ever heard of 'em?)
So the Sades literally beat Oklahoma and we are talkin' nonsense about gettin' rid of Sader Pigskin? Makes no sense!
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Nov 16, 2018 11:07:05 GMT -5
Dad Boner killin' it once again!
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Post by thecrossisback on Nov 16, 2018 11:18:46 GMT -5
The Problem with FCS Football In New England
Is BU doesn't have it. Norheastern doesn't have it. (The best sign at the BC game day was Northeastern undefeated since 2009.) Umass Lowell doesn't have it Providence Vermont
It is hard to get crowds if you don't have teams that are close together playing each other. Give fans a chance to travel to the games. Nobody is driving to PA to watch the Patriot League.
FCS should make a New England Conference- Championship game at Gillette Maine Rhode Island UNH Holy Cross Umass should drop into it Uconn should drop into it Maybe add a team from New York or a few Maybe a team from NJ or PA
Look how well Hockey East works
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Post by hc87 on Nov 16, 2018 12:17:32 GMT -5
I like the level but the PL restrictions will continue to hold us back I fear.
Just not sure how viable our program will be in 5, 10 years in terms of being competitive with the best at the FCS- level, giving a good FBS team a decent game occasionally, atttendance /support/branding being built up etc. given the current trajectory of both our program and the PL in total.
I would only consider dropping football if it was contingent on joining the Big East.
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Post by gks on Nov 16, 2018 13:11:02 GMT -5
Maybe the debate should be is the Patriot League viable in FCS in the long run. Other than Colgate, every other school seems to either not know what they're doing or PL rules handcuff them so they're pre-determined to fail. If you play in a division play by the rules. Would PL basketball ever think about limited rosters to say 10 and only give out 9 scholarships?
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 16, 2018 13:34:57 GMT -5
I like the level but the PL restrictions will continue to hold us back I fear. Just not sure how viable our program will be in 5, 10 years in terms of being competitive with the best at the FCS- level, giving a good FBS team a decent game occasionally, atttendance /support/branding being built up etc. given the current trajectory of both our program and the PL in total. I would only consider dropping football if it was contingent on joining the Big East. Two points: 1) Absolutely right that some soul-searching will be needed from PL brass if we continue to wallow as a conference. IMO, it's time to look into Red-shirting and possibly loosening the AI. I would much rather be a slightly-more-academic but competitive version of the CAA than Ivy-Lite. 2) Why is it on this board that so many people see a correlation between sponsoring FCS football and getting into the Big East or not? Isn't Villanova doing just fine?
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 16, 2018 13:37:45 GMT -5
Wasn't there a New England Conference at one time, called the Yankee Conference? And? LoveHC That conference still exists today. The Yankee Conference began playing under the Atlantic 10 banner in 1997. The A-10 started playing under a CAA banner in 2006.
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Post by joe on Nov 16, 2018 13:44:56 GMT -5
NY is right. Broadly, all that really needs to happen is a handful of obvious rule changes and the PL will be have significantly more parity with the CAA overnight. Specially for HC, if it lightens up just a micron on its admissions I think we’d have found a sweet spot for HC football for as long as the game is still played.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 16, 2018 14:08:30 GMT -5
You are right but a CAA NORTH Division like they had a few years back COULD work:
NORTH - UNH, MAINE, URI, HC, ALBANY, SBU (6 teams) SOUTH - NOVA, DELAWARE, TOWSON, JMU, W&M, RICHMOND, ELON (7 teams)
And if JMU moves up to CUSA, the league would be even at six teams per division.
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Post by CHC8485 on Nov 16, 2018 14:22:16 GMT -5
How many years in a row is this thread going to be repeated? By my count about 7 fewer than we woulda, coulda, shoulda been in the Big East - and it's variant cousin, we need to be in a better league - threads.
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