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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 8, 2018 6:38:46 GMT -5
www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/sports/ncaa-applicants/?utm_term=.e5910c5a5b02This is an article trying again to assess whether there is the so-called Flutie effect on the number of applications received by a college or university. The more interesting part of the article is there is an interactive chart in which one can gauge whether participating in a national championship (football, M/W basketball) or not has a discernible effect on applications. The applications data is graphed 2001-2017. Yes, Holy Cross is in the database, as is Colgate, Bucknell, etc. FCS championships count. As there is not a drop-down list, you need to type in Massachusetts (for UMass), Richmond (for University of Richmond), Connecticut for UConn, etc. The graph for Holy Cross reveals stagnation, the graph for Fordham, by comparison, is astounding. Seton Hall does much better on applications growth than does Villanova. Fairfield does better than Holy Cross, Mt. St. Mary's does much better than HC, so FCMB brought no boost.. St. Mary's is as flat as HC. Davidson is pretty flat, for all their basketball success. The University of Miami (with no Flutie) does much better than BC. Bump for Butler after first appearance in the title game, then flat (even after second appearance). May have been a more recent bump from joining BE, but hard to say without knowing whether there was a change in admissions strategy. Xavier has done well, Marquette has done poorly, a precipitous drop.. I believe Fordham's director of admissions is a HC grad. HC needs him back!
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Post by matunuck on Dec 8, 2018 9:40:50 GMT -5
I recall someone from Georgetown who told me their initial basketball success was very helpful. It increased the school’s visibility outside the east and made it easier to get on the radar of high-achieving students and most importantly their parent(s).
But to your point on apps, we need a reboot.
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Post by bison137 on Dec 8, 2018 12:28:58 GMT -5
I remember that Eric cited a study that showed that over the next decade after Flutie that the applications for Northeastern and Boston U grew significantly faster than did those for BC. It was a Boston effect, not a Flutie effect.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 8, 2018 15:29:26 GMT -5
I remember that Eric cited a study that showed that over the next decade after Flutie that the applications for Northeastern and Boston U grew significantly faster than did those for BC. It was a Boston effect, not a Flutie effect. BC even did a study which concluded that it was impossible to discern a 'Flutie' effect because BC's application numbers had been rising, and, IIRC, BC also had an initiative underway to expand its admissions outreach, de-emphasizing Massachusetts and Boston. Too many variables. I think Butler had a Flutie effect, and Gonzaga as well, but neither were really sustained.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 10, 2018 13:01:51 GMT -5
I recall someone from Georgetown who told me their initial basketball success was very helpful. It increased the school’s visibility outside the east and made it easier to get on the radar of high-achieving students and most importantly their parent(s). Basketball was an indirect (nice to have) gain but the real driver was the decision to go to need blind admissions in 1978 and placement in the US News Top 25 rankings in 1985. These two factors got Georgetown to the front door of high school counselors who now saw Georgetown as a top tier choice to recommend to students. As a result, places like Andover and Exeter started sending lots of applications to Georgetown where they would have never considered it before. I wouldn't underestimate the US News rankings, either. However flawed, it's clearly elevated some schools into the top tier (USC and Wake Forest) while other programs like Fordham and George Washington have taken a step back. It's clearly elevated Villanova in the last decade.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 10, 2018 14:35:59 GMT -5
Did Georgetown benefit from having a US president as an alum?
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Post by hcpride on Dec 10, 2018 16:08:49 GMT -5
I recall someone from Georgetown who told me their initial basketball success was very helpful. It increased the school’s visibility outside the east and made it easier to get on the radar of high-achieving students and most importantly their parent(s). Basketball was an indirect (nice to have) gain but the real driver was the decision to go to need blind admissions in 1978 and placement in the US News Top 25 rankings in 1985. These two factors got Georgetown to the front door of high school counselors who now saw Georgetown as a top tier choice to recommend to students. As a result, places like Andover and Exeter started sending lots of applications to Georgetown where they would have never considered it before. I wouldn't underestimate the US News rankings, either. However flawed, it's clearly elevated some schools into the top tier (USC and Wake Forest) while other programs like Fordham and George Washington have taken a step back. It's clearly elevated Villanova in the last decade. True. To the typical eastern and Catholic-college oriented applicant way back in the late 70's/very early 80's academic reputation was (in order) Georgetown University, HC, BC with Villanova as a safety (in my experience). Washington DC (as a city) was a bit off-putting at the time for some accepted applicants so ultimate choices by the Catholic-college oriented accepted applicants did not necessarily favor Georgetown (in my experience) FWIW. But your point regarding the GU exposure/appeal to the non-Catholic academically-oriented is very well taken. And of course the city's reputation has greatly improved. No doubt both of these factors are also part of BC's continued success too. Clearly, things (including academic reputations) have changed since I was a prospective student. (PS: Not sure of your read on Fordham lately but obviously Villanova and BC have moved up considerably since the early 80's.)
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Post by matunuck on Dec 10, 2018 21:38:13 GMT -5
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 11, 2018 23:55:36 GMT -5
Did Georgetown benefit from having a US president as an alum? I guess you're not referring to this guy: True story: LBJ attended, but did not finish, his law degree from Georgetown. This is a photo from a 1963 award he received two weeks before he became President. True story #2: LBJ's daughter converted to Catholicism and enrolled at Georgetown's nursing school in 1964. She was asked to leave in 1966 upon her engagement, because at the time the school did not allow married women as students.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 12, 2018 6:56:51 GMT -5
Did Georgetown benefit from having a US president as an alum? I guess you're not referring to this guy: True story: LBJ attended, but did not finish, his law degree from Georgetown. This is a photo from a 1963 award he received two weeks before he became President. True story #2: LBJ's daughter converted to Catholicism and enrolled at Georgetown's nursing school in 1964. She was asked to leave in 1966 upon her engagement, because at the time the school did not allow married women as students. Even up to WWII, many / most? / all? Massachusetts cities and towns did not allow married women to teach in the public schools.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 12, 2018 22:05:15 GMT -5
Speaking from only a qualitative perspective here as I refuse to spend 30 minutes looking up admissions statistics alongside NCAA football and basketball records:
One thing I think those that tout the “Flutie effect” forget — most high-achieving college applicants are looking for the best ACADEMIC school they can possibly get into as long as that school fits their taste in terms of size, location, setting and religious background. WE DO ALSO LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE NOT EVERYONE CARES ABOUT SPORTS. In fact, some may view a school prioritizing sports and students hero-worshipping athletes as a negative.
Ad nauseum people post here about how getting into a more prestigious conference will result in a stronger and more national applicant pool. Let me ask this - is there a perception anywhere in the country that Creighton, Providence, St. John’s, Marquette and Gonzaga are better schools with more competitive admissions than HC? Nope - guidance counselors from sea to shining sea know that these institutions aren’t worthy of holding our academic jock strap.
One case where the Flutie effect might make a difference IMO: former commuter schools like George Mason and Central Florida. The middling B student who applies to the gauntlet of party-hard safety schools along the East Coast may not have heard of these schools prior to Finak Four runs and major bowl berths. So now these guys might get an app mailed from the guy looking at Delaware, Towson, NC State, Rutgers, Coastal Carolina and James Madison. You could probably put Loyola Chicago in this group too. Maybe the Scranton/Siena/Canisius/Duquesne applicant takes a peak now...
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Post by timholycross on Dec 25, 2018 11:42:36 GMT -5
I think these comments from BC Interruption show that perhaps the Flutie Effect (or the Runaway Popularity of Boston Based Universities Effect, as I like to call it) had consequences that boosted the university up, but not the sports program. In other words, fan apathy is not an exclusive trait of Holy Cross.
Re BC Athletics: "Just poorly managed for years. My guess is that the majority of donors and alums aren’t that terribly interested in athletics as long as no scandals involved. Make up of university vastly different over last 20 years. I think we are in the minority. Next large BC function you attend – see how many people even know how our football team performed this year or even know the names of the two highest paid employees of the university. "
Re Admissions: "BC has no interest in the greater Boston alumni and subway alumni.These are the people who followed BC ( 16,000 followed them to the Cotton Bowl). Their kids are not good enough to go there any more; but BC want them to continue to support the school. Good luck to BC with their new national school where qualified Bostonians need not apply. I hope they are happy ( I really do). As for me when I was forced out of my football and basketball seats, I understood the message. I’ll stick with the hockey team until they screw that up."
"Sad but true. Exceptional students from the local area are continuously denied entrance. My son applied for early acceptance, wasn’t accepted for early acceptance but was told he would be considered under normal acceptance. They eventually put him on the wait list and was told that he was well qualified to attend the school, but that he didn’t quite make the cut. His thoughts are if he was well qualified, why wasn’t he accepted under early acceptance. Needless to say, he wants nothing to do with BC now. The school is continuously losing local appeal to the way that it treats the area students."
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Post by matunuck on Dec 25, 2018 13:46:06 GMT -5
As I have noted many times on this board, BC isn’t concerned about empty seats which some seem to obsess about. The fact that it’s easier to get in from other parts of the country isn’t unique to BC. True for most selective schools seeking geographic diversity. I for one would like to see fewer students at HC from Massachusetts.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 25, 2018 13:53:41 GMT -5
I am not from Massachusetts, but I do need to ask why? If others from around the country are better qualified..OK. But, if all things are equal, I am not sure we should discriminate against those from the Baystate any more than any other group.
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Post by matunuck on Dec 25, 2018 17:38:10 GMT -5
Hi RGS and Merry Christmas. I love Massachusetts. Lots of family there. But a national liberal arts should ensure a national student body. I’m also a big believer that students should be exposed to other regional cultures and perspectives.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 25, 2018 19:38:49 GMT -5
I agree with all you said. But, there are enough diverse students in every state (MA included) that there should not be a need to single out anyone to be bypassed.
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Post by crossbball13 on Dec 25, 2018 20:04:38 GMT -5
I agree with all you said. But, there are enough diverse students in every state (MA included) that there should not be a need to single out anyone to be bypassed. Agree with RGS. As in anything, the best overall candidate (well rounded) should get the position/spot. Regardless of legacy, color, residence, nationality etc. turning your back on MA (something I don’t think HC does) would be a mistake. But per usual, PP should jump in with moody and s&p’s suggestion at any moment.
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Post by HC92 on Dec 25, 2018 20:40:33 GMT -5
I don’t know if it’s the Flutie Effect or not but, in 1988, Villanova was a safety school for HC students. In 2018, Holy Cross is perceived as easier to get into and less prestigious than Villanova by all the high schoolers and their parents I talk to here in Central CT.
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Post by alum on Dec 26, 2018 9:38:45 GMT -5
I don’t know if it’s the Flutie Effect or not but, in 1988, Villanova was a safety school for HC students. In 2018, Holy Cross is perceived as easier to get into and less prestigious than Villanova by all the high schoolers and their parents I talk to here in Central CT. I think that Nova's hoops success has been of some value to its admissions office. I think the bigger driver to Nova (and BU and even Northeastern) is that kids seem to want big universities in big cities. Since HC isn't set up to be a big university and it is not in a big exciting city, it has to strive to be the best small liberal arts college it can be and effectively communicate that to high schoolers and their parents. I remain convinced they could do a better job in getting the word out.
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Post by Tom on Dec 26, 2018 10:51:50 GMT -5
I don’t know if it’s the Flutie Effect or not but, in 1988, Villanova was a safety school for HC students. In 2018, Holy Cross is perceived as easier to get into and less prestigious than Villanova by all the high schoolers and their parents I talk to here in Central CT. Obviously, it depends on whom one talks to, no? Certainly the professional ratings sources which is in part based on the perceptions of school presidents and other professionals in the field do not support the opinions in central CT. Look, I have no animus against Villanova and I do realize that HC could do a lot better but we have been through this before on this board and the primacy of HC over Villanova and other similar schools has been clearly established. So, I wouldn't expect your troll to get much of a response except from those few who take the bait such as myself. I wish you well. LoveHC For what it's worth, I happen to know the real life person behind the moniker HC92. Ignoring the glaring character flaw that he is a Yankee fan, he is not a board troller. He is simply sharing the the opinions of central CT high schoolers. The fact that they are not aware that employers and grad schools don't agree with them doesn't change their perceptions. I would not assume that it is a troll to share the fact that potential students in a region have false perceptions about HC
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 26, 2018 11:12:05 GMT -5
It's the day after Christmas. I suspect mm67 is getting 92 mixed up with another poster who has a well established reverence for all things Villanova. Perceptions are just that, perceptions. Sometimes real; sometimes imaginary.
I would agree that the reputation of Holy Cross as an elite liberal arts college as ranked by USN&WR and others has dropped some over the years yet the students I encounter with a fair degree of frequency seem to be as good as they've ever been. In part, I recall Fr. McFarland saying that Holy Cross did not, and would never, just do things in order to get a higher USN&WR ranking. The College would stay true to its mission (and damn the consequences, apparently). A relatively small, liberal arts college who would turn out "men and women for others."
Holy Cross is much more diverse than it was in my day (duh!, 50%+ are women vs. 0%) and ALANA student population in real and percentage terms has relatively exploded from the 60's and 70's. LGBQT students are open and join together for solidarity. The administration and BoT see these things as strengths.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 26, 2018 12:05:19 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I happen to know the real life person behind the moniker HC92. Ignoring the glaring character flaw that he is a Yankee fan, he is not a board troller. He is simply sharing the the opinions of central CT high schoolers. The fact that they are not aware that employers and grad schools don't agree with them doesn't change their perceptions. I would not assume that it is a troll to share the fact that potential students in a region have false perceptions about HC Not to mention that his kids now make up about 40% of the cheering section at basketball games, and have grabbed on to the YOU YOU YOU baton with gusto.
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Post by gks on Dec 26, 2018 14:21:02 GMT -5
As I have noted many times on this board, BC isn’t concerned about empty seats which some seem to obsess about. The fact that it’s easier to get in from other parts of the country isn’t unique to BC. True for most selective schools seeking geographic diversity. I for one would like to see fewer students at HC from Massachusetts. This is just another reason why Worcester and Central Mass have no interest in HC athletics any more.
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Post by HC92 on Dec 26, 2018 14:32:16 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I happen to know the real life person behind the moniker HC92. Ignoring the glaring character flaw that he is a Yankee fan, he is not a board troller. He is simply sharing the the opinions of central CT high schoolers. The fact that they are not aware that employers and grad schools don't agree with them doesn't change their perceptions. I would not assume that it is a troll to share the fact that potential students in a region have false perceptions about HC I try to deal in the real world. Many high school students in my area would prefer to go to Villanova over HC and they and their parents believe that it’s harder to get into. My oldest now attends a Catholic high school that sends a lot of kids each year to HC and other Catholic colleges in the northeast. Will be interesting to watch where the top students wind up over the next couple of years. Seems like the current pecking order is 1 BC, 2 HC and Villanova, 3 Providence, Fairfield and Fordham.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 26, 2018 15:54:30 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I happen to know the real life person behind the moniker HC92. Ignoring the glaring character flaw that he is a Yankee fan, he is not a board troller. He is simply sharing the the opinions of central CT high schoolers. The fact that they are not aware that employers and grad schools don't agree with them doesn't change their perceptions. I would not assume that it is a troll to share the fact that potential students in a region have false perceptions about HC I try to deal in the real world. Many high school students in my area would prefer to go to Villanova over HC and they and their parents believe that it’s harder to get into. My oldest now attends a Catholic high school that sends a lot of kids each year to HC and other Catholic colleges in the northeast. Will be interesting to watch where the top students wind up over the next couple of years. Seems like the current pecking order is 1 BC, 2 HC and Villanova, 3 Providence, Fairfield and Fordham. Since Villanova's most recent acceptance rate was 28.9 and HC's was 38.0, that is entirely accurate. (Academic stats for accepted students at Villanova are understandably higher) Pecking order I see (and I teach high school and - much more significantly - have access to Naviance) is clearly reflected in this data I posted in another thread: To the extent this helps see who is going after the same kids, US News & World Report lists four cross-applicant schools as part of its annual and widely-read ratings each year: Holy Cross: BC, Fordham, Providence, UMass Amherst Boston College: Georgetown, Northeastern, Notre Dame, University of Virginia Fordham: Binghamton (SUNY), BC, BU, NYU Georgetown: BC, Duke, NYU, UPenn Providence College: BC, Holy Cross, Fairfield, Fordham Villanova: BC, Georgetown, Notre Dame, UPenn Colgate (FWIW): BC, Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth Note: The four schools are presented alphabetically by USNWR. This is the 2019 report/survey. I read this as, for example, Holy Cross applicants have tended to apply (at the greatest rate) also to these four other schools.
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