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Post by hchoops on Jan 5, 2019 10:49:37 GMT -5
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Post by CHC8485 on Jan 5, 2019 11:11:08 GMT -5
My dad is from Brooklyn and his aunt lived nearby. She was a big Gil Hodges fan, in part,because Gil lived in the same apartment building as she did for several years. She would agree.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 5, 2019 11:14:17 GMT -5
His stats as both a player and manager, bringing the worst team in history to the biggest upset in World Series history should be sufficient
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Post by hcpride on Jan 5, 2019 11:27:17 GMT -5
"Some of Hodges’ totals come up short against other Hall of Famers, including Baines. The latter had 384 home runs and 1,628 RBIs through 22 seasons. Hodges had 370 homers and 1,274 RBIs in 18 seasons. "
After appearing in the Major Leagues as a very young player, Gil served in the Marine Corps and was awarded the Bronze star in Okinawa. Missing two complete seasons of play. I'd say Gil doesn't come up short at all.
Put Gil in the Hall.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 5, 2019 11:29:08 GMT -5
His numbers are also better than some/many in the Hall. And if his managerial achievements are added, it should be a no brainer..
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 5, 2019 12:54:56 GMT -5
Let's look at the record. Baseball-Reference says the following batters had careers that wre most like that of Gil Hodges:
1) Norm Cash 2) George Foster 3) Tino Martinez 4) Jack Clark 5) Mark Texeira 6) Boog Powell 7) Rocky Colavito 8) Joe Adcock 9) Lee May 10) Willie Horton
None of these players made the Hall.
Gill Hodges was an All Star in 8 of 9 years between 1949 and 1958. He finished in the top-10 for MVP voting 3 times: 7th, 8th, 10th. He won 2 Gold Gloves. I think he was a good to very good ballplayer, but not an all-time great.
The JAWS calculations rank Gil #37 among all first basemen. There are two HOFers with lower rankings: #57 Jim Bottomley and #90 George Kelly, but they both came in through the Veterans Committee during the reign of terror of Frankie Frisch, who worked diligently to get all his above-average teammates into the Hall. Ranked above Hodges, but not in the Hall are a dozen or so eligible (i.e. retired 5 years) players such as #19 Keith Hernandez (HOF voting peaked at 11%), #26 Will Clark (got 4% in only year on the ballot) and #31 Fred McGriff (peaked at 24%). Note that #24 is Joe Torre, a very good hitter, who peaked at 22% in his final year of regular voting. He made it in via the Veterans Committee due to his managerial success.
How did Gil do in his regular Hall voting? He got 24% in 1969, the first year he was eligible and that jumped to 48% in 1970 after the Mets won the 69 WS. He got a bump after he died in 1972 and peaked at 63% in his final year of eligibility, 1983.
As a manager it looks to me that he inherited two bad teams (Senators, then Mets) and then helped them improve. His career record for his 9 years as a manager was 660-753 = .467. Tragically, he died at age 47 in 1972. So he did not get the long tenure to see what kind of a record he might have posted--might he have rivalled his contemporary Earl Weaver, a HOFer?
It seems to me the crux of the matter is: does the status of having led one of the most famous teams in baseball history, the 1969 Mets, having that one magical season, elevate a good but not great ball player to HOF status?
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 5, 2019 13:01:14 GMT -5
IMHO, it does.
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Post by hcpride on Jan 5, 2019 13:50:42 GMT -5
Let's look at the record. Baseball-Reference says the following batters had careers that wre most like that of Gil Hodges: 1) Norm Cash 2) George Foster 3) Tino Martinez 4) Jack Clark 5) Mark Texeira 6) Boog Powell 7) Rocky Colavito 8) Joe Adcock 9) Lee May 10) Willie Horton None of these players made the Hall. Gill Hodges was an All Star in 8 of 9 years between 1949 and 1958. He finished in the top-10 for MVP voting 3 times: 7th, 8th, 10th. He won 2 Gold Gloves. I think he was a good to very good ballplayer, but not an all-time great. How many of them lost two years (plus rust in his 28-game 3rd year) from their playing careers to the war? Far less significantly (IMHO) than the war years, Gil was a great fielder at first base and generally considered the finest first basemen in the major leagues in the 1950's ...he won 3 consecutive Gold Gloves (not 2) ...and won the very first Gold Glove ever awarded (1957 - interestingly they only had 1 per position in the Major Leagues that year..the next year they started the AL/NL practice)...most agree he would have won the GG more (he was an all-star first basemen, after all, from '49-'55 - among other years ) but the award did not exist during the first 11 years of his playing career.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 5, 2019 16:05:36 GMT -5
As I've posted many times before, when I was young I was a Brooklyn Dodger fan. MLB has fallen out of favor with me many years ago. Somehow they've survived my absence. But I have always assumed that Gil was in the Hall of Fame for many of the reasons the rest of you have posted above. A travesty that he is not included. Another reason for me not to like MLB.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 5, 2019 16:18:46 GMT -5
The veterans’ committee ignored him when Ted Williams had a great influence and worked hard to keep Hodges out. Hodges had replaced Williams as manager of the Senators. Hodges’ teams had better records than Williams. A jealous Williams eventually got his revenge.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 5, 2019 16:38:13 GMT -5
Let's look at the record. Baseball-Reference says the following batters had careers that wre most like that of Gil Hodges: 1) Norm Cash 2) George Foster 3) Tino Martinez 4) Jack Clark 5) Mark Texeira 6) Boog Powell 7) Rocky Colavito 8) Joe Adcock 9) Lee May 10) Willie Horton None of these players made the Hall. Gill Hodges was an All Star in 8 of 9 years between 1949 and 1958. He finished in the top-10 for MVP voting 3 times: 7th, 8th, 10th. He won 2 Gold Gloves. I think he was a good to very good ballplayer, but not an all-time great. How many of them lost two years (plus rust in his 28-game 3rd year) from their playing careers to the war?
Far less significantly (IMHO) than the war years, Gil was a great fielder at first base and generally considered the finest first basemen in the major leagues in the 1950's ...he won 3 consecutive Gold Gloves (not 2) ...and won the very first Gold Glove ever awarded (1957 - interestingly they only had 1 per position in the Major Leagues that year..the next year they started the AL/NL practice)...most agree he would have won the GG more (he was an all-star first basemen, after all, from '49-'55 - among other years ) but the award did not exist during the first 11 years of his playing career. I see it as a different case for Gil Hodges than for DiMaggio or Feller or other established stars who lost productive years to service. Hodges returned from the war and spent 1946 in the minors before coming up the Brooklyn and batting .156 in 91 at bats in 1947. He may very well have lost some development time, but I can't say that he lost productive years. Bob Feller won 24-27-25 games in the three years (ages 20-22) before going into the service. He lost 3+ years in service and then picked up as a 20 game winner again. Just playing devil's advocate here....
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Post by hchoops on Jan 5, 2019 16:47:06 GMT -5
How about his Gold Glove D and his bringing the Meta to at least one of the biggest upsets in .world Series history ?
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Post by hcpride on Jan 5, 2019 17:07:20 GMT -5
How many of them lost two years (plus rust in his 28-game 3rd year) from their playing careers to the war?
Far less significantly (IMHO) than the war years, Gil was a great fielder at first base and generally considered the finest first basemen in the major leagues in the 1950's ...he won 3 consecutive Gold Gloves (not 2) ...and won the very first Gold Glove ever awarded (1957 - interestingly they only had 1 per position in the Major Leagues that year..the next year they started the AL/NL practice)...most agree he would have won the GG more (he was an all-star first basemen, after all, from '49-'55 - among other years ) but the award did not exist during the first 11 years of his playing career. I see it as a different case for Gil Hodges than for DiMaggio or Feller or other established stars who lost productive years to service. Hodges returned from the war and spent 1946 in the minors before coming up the Brooklyn and batting .156 in 91 at bats in 1947. He may very well have lost some development time, but I can't say that he lost productive years. Bob Feller won 24-27-25 games in the three years (ages 20-22) before going into the service. He lost 3+ years in service and then picked up as a 20 game winner again. Just playing devil's advocate here.... Gil Hodges played in the major leagues (Brooklyn Dodgers) for one game at the close of the 1943 season. (You did not note that - even playing devil's advocate it is a very important point) He then went off to war. Including combat in Okinawa (where he was awarded the Bronze Star...his widow received his Combat Action Ribbon many years later ). He was gone from major league baseball for two years (WW II) and upon his return knocked off the rust in the minors before being called back up to the majors in 1947. You don't think he lost 3 or 4 major league years? [He finished with 370HRs - guys with 400 from his era are all hall of famers.] Did any of the 'similar stats' guys do that? (It is also true that many other players lost baseball years to WW II and to later wars as well.) Now that the missing major league years (WW II +) and Golden Glove issues have been clarified, any chance you'll change your mind on Gil?
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Post by hchoops on Jan 5, 2019 17:13:31 GMT -5
Do not forget the Miracle Mets led by the Miracle Maker
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Post by hchoops on Jan 5, 2019 18:00:42 GMT -5
No way to gauge that
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 5, 2019 18:01:20 GMT -5
No.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 5, 2019 18:04:06 GMT -5
"Thank you for your service", Ted, Willie, Gil, et. al. Loved Gil, respected Willie, hated Ted. P.S. Forgot to include "Mr. Coffee" (Joe D) in my thank you for his service. And to add "Envied Joe" (think Miss Monroe!)
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Post by hcpride on Jan 5, 2019 18:05:25 GMT -5
Gil Hodges played in the major leagues (Brooklyn Dodgers) for one game at the close of the 1943 season. (You did not note that - even playing devil's advocate it is a very important point) He then went off to war. Including combat in Okinawa (where he was awarded the Bronze Star...his widow received his Combat Action Ribbon many years later ). He was gone from major league baseball for two years (WW II) and upon his return knocked off the rust in the minors before being called back up to the majors in 1947. You don't think he lost 3 or 4 major league years? [He finished with 370HRs - guys with 400 from his era are slam-dunk hall of famers.] Did any of the 'similar stats' guys do that? (It is also true that many other players lost baseball years to that war and the Korean War and to later wars as well. Some before the start of their major league careers (Yogi Berra, Garry Maddox), some just after the start of their professional major league careers (Gil Hodges), some midway thru their major league careers (DiMaggio), and some at the tail end of their major league careers.) Without putting too fine a point on it (and it is a separate issue) there was some duty that enabled you to remain in pretty good baseball shape...those that earned the Combat Action Ribbon (as Hodges did) did not have that sort of duty. Now that the missing major league years (WW II +) and Golden Glove issues have been clarified, any chance you'll change your mind on Gil? Don't forget Ted Williams who served his country both in WWII & Korea. Also, the incomparable Willie Mays lost two seasons serving active duty in the army. Few people know - or remember - that Nolan Ryan missed a few starts with the Mets pulling reserve duty down at Fort Dix. Don Newcomb lost two potentially great years in the service (plus a third while shaking off the rust): www.baseball-reference.com/players/n/newcodo01.shtml
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 5, 2019 18:18:02 GMT -5
Mm67, you have read, I'm sure, about how great Ted was with the fans. Spitting on some who weren't in his fan club. That predates the Keith Hernandez story that was so hilariously portrayed in Seinfeld as a takeoff on the Kennedy assassination. "THe Magic Loogie." www.espn.com/classic/s/moment010807-williams-spit.htmlWomder how his frozen head is holding up?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 5, 2019 21:13:55 GMT -5
I see it as a different case for Gil Hodges than for DiMaggio or Feller or other established stars who lost productive years to service. Hodges returned from the war and spent 1946 in the minors before coming up the Brooklyn and batting .156 in 91 at bats in 1947. He may very well have lost some development time, but I can't say that he lost productive years. Bob Feller won 24-27-25 games in the three years (ages 20-22) before going into the service. He lost 3+ years in service and then picked up as a 20 game winner again. Just playing devil's advocate here.... Gil Hodges played in the major leagues (Brooklyn Dodgers) for one game at the close of the 1943 season. (You did not note that - even playing devil's advocate it is a very important point)
He then went off to war. Including combat in Okinawa (where he was awarded the Bronze Star...his widow received his Combat Action Ribbon many years later ). He was gone from major league baseball for two years (WW II) and upon his return knocked off the rust in the minors before being called back up to the majors in 1947. You don't think he lost 3 or 4 major league years? [He finished with 370HRs - guys with 400 from his era are all hall of famers.] Did any of the 'similar stats' guys do that? (It is also true that many other players lost baseball years to WW II and to later wars as well.) Now that the missing major league years (WW II +) and Golden Glove issues have been clarified, any chance you'll change your mind on Gil? Yes, he played that one game at age 19, the last game of the season, where he came to the plate three times, walking once and striking out twice and making 2 errors playing third base. He then missed his age 20 and age 21 years while in the service and, as noted, serving in combat and being recognized for his valor with the Bronze Star. "Discharged in February 1946, Hodges went to spring training with Brooklyn. ….Dodgers President Branch Rickey sent the now 22-year-old Hodges to the Newport News (Virginia) Dodgers, the club’s entry in the Class-B Piedmont League, where he was converted from infielder to catcher. Hodges played in 129 games, hitting .278 with 8 home runs for Newport News. For his efforts, Hodges was named to the all-league team." In 1947 he went to spring training with the Dodgers and made the team as the back-up catcher. He was 23 years old. He played 24 games and batted .156 with 1 home run in 77 at bats. in 1948 he was age 24 and demonstrated that he was at last ready to be a MLB player as he batted .249 with 11 home runs playing mostly first base but also catching some. In 1949 at age 25 he began to put up the solid Gil Hodges numbers that we all recall. I just don't see how anyone could make a case that he lost 3 or 4 major league years to military service. I don't think he was ready to be a MLB player when he was in the Army. Here's a nice tidbit from his bio on baseball-reference: he was one of the few Dodgers to live in Brooklyn and his widow Joan was still living in their house there as of 2018.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 5, 2019 21:21:14 GMT -5
Forget the military What about the best fielder of his era and the Mets huge upset of the Orioles in ‘69 ? ( i was at the last game)
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Post by alum on Jan 5, 2019 22:18:22 GMT -5
I don’t have strong feelings on this one although I am interested in the Dodgers of that era because I read Boys of Summer as a kid. I would point out he is eligible for consideration again in 2020 baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/rules/eras-committeesHchoops— Set up a web site, get a marketing team together, and start the campaign. 😁
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Post by hchoops on Jan 5, 2019 22:33:02 GMT -5
It has been done already, not by me
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 5, 2019 22:44:29 GMT -5
I think there’s a good chance that Gil will make it when he next becomes eligible.
I’m fascinated by those great Dodger teams of the 50’s. Must have been fun, though frustrating at times, to live in Brooklyn and follow the team. I think Jackie Robinson would be on my all time 25 man team with his ability to play so many positions.
In my opinion there are dozens of undeserving HOFers (in addition to Bottomley and Kelly). Harold Baines???
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Post by hchoops on Jan 5, 2019 23:03:12 GMT -5
It was mostly pure joy to live in Brooklyn at that time. Almost all springs and summers were perfect. The autumns, except for 1955, were painful. That Yan..evil empire. Baseball dominated the conversation year round. Kids argued as to the best Dodger, Yan.. and Giant at each position, announcers and even beer sponsors Then O’Malley showed his pure greed, abandoning the best fans in the game.(Moses deserves some blame also) Attending Brooklyn Prep, 4 blocks from Ebbets Field, the best of the ballparks, in February, 1960, my freshman year, I had to watch it be torn down as I walked to and from my bus stop across from the shrine. I am still in therapy.
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