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Post by bfoley82 on Jan 6, 2019 16:53:56 GMT -5
Hey remember you could be UNH who hasn’t won a D-1 game all year
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Post by hchoops on Jan 6, 2019 17:18:47 GMT -5
How can the biggest Butler supporter compare him with those guys anyway? He's a GUARD, dammit, and he's 6-5 like Vicens was 6-5 (which he really wasn't). He doesn't have the inside presence of a player like that. Possibly, the comparison was based on Butler's affect, his style of play. Not possibly, definitely, as you would have seen if you had read it. The same points you make were made at the start.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 6, 2019 17:29:18 GMT -5
Haven't seen the game stats yet but by eyeball, this was a very bad performance by Austin today. I used to think when he is on the floor multiple times a game, it indicated how hard he was playing. He must have been on the floor at least 5-6 times today, even more than his usual. I have to agree with others that he is playing beyond his capabilities. I think he is trying too hard and thinks he can give the fictitious 110%. With Jehyve on the bench, I think that he puts even more pressure on himself.
Like others, I also noted that we were playing a very small line-up when JF went to the bench. But even when Jehyve got back in, we made a run but couldn't sustain it. LeSann had barely a cameo performance. Copeland not much more. Ziggy not at all that I noticed. We sure need Connor back!
Don't despair, fans, this team doesn't quit and they will bounce back.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 6, 2019 17:30:40 GMT -5
Course, we are 10-5. Could be worse...could be 5-10. Need to be much sharper,for sure, but against low major D-1s we're 9-2. Getting Connor back soon would sure provide a nice boost. One of the disappointing pieces of our last seven games is we haven’t given playing time to the freshmen. It might be because they aren’t ready but it would have been great to give them 3-6 min per game for some game experience. As the box score reads DNP coaches decision and will defer to them as they see the kids each day and want to win every bit as much as the fans. As NAD says Niego is the key to depth in this rotation and imho he is needed if we are going to finish 1-4
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Post by efg72 on Jan 6, 2019 17:34:14 GMT -5
Awful game from Butler. He takes 12 shots to five for Floyd. Asinine. Our lack of depth is beginning to rear its ugly head. We get nothing from Copeland and CLS. HC did not play a forward off the bench. And Benzan played 30 minutes. So they were playing "short" most of the game. Has to catch up with you at some point. Not only hurts you defensively in terms of his length ( not hustle and desire), but kills you offensively as he is not a threat to score with our offensive sets
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Post by efg72 on Jan 6, 2019 17:38:14 GMT -5
I think that it is entirely inappropriate to compare Butler with Hochstein, Vicens, et.al. He may walk with a swagger but his game is not up to his swag. He is quite young and should try to maintain his confidence but he has a lot of practice, shooting drills and learning to do for him to reach his full potential. Try to stay positive. LoveHC How can the biggest Butler supporter compare him with those guys anyway? He's a GUARD, dammit, and he's 6-5 like Vicens was 6-5 (which he really wasn't). He doesn't have the inside presence of a player like that. Butler is at best 6’4-my son and I were standing next to him and he is not taller than either one of us so I will go with 6’3 1/2 only comparrison being made with any of these players after Vicens is around hustle-heart and desire
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 6, 2019 17:43:00 GMT -5
Haven't seen the game stats yet but by eyeball, this was a very bad performance by Austin today. I used to think when he is on the floor multiple times a game, it indicated how hard he was playing. He must have been on the floor at least 5-6 times today, even more than his usual. I have to agree with others that he is playing beyond his capabilities. I think he is trying too hard and thinks he can give the fictitious 110%. With Jehyve on the bench, I think that he puts even more pressure on himself. Like others, I also noted that we were playing a very small line-up when JF went to the bench. But even when Jehyve got back in, we made a run but couldn't sustain it. LeSann had barely a cameo performance. Copeland not much more. Ziggy not at all that I noticed. We sure need Connor back! Don't despair, fans, this team doesn't quit and they will bounce back. Not a good game for Austin. Here's what KenPom has for o-Ratings for today's game 134= Pat Benzan 96= Jehyve Floyd 75= Jacob Grandison 68= Matt Faw 62= Austin Butler 48= Caleb Green
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jan 6, 2019 17:43:01 GMT -5
HC did not play a forward off the bench. And Benzan played 30 minutes. So they were playing "short" most of the game. Has to catch up with you at some point. Not only hurts you defensively in terms of his length ( not hustle and desire), but kills you offensively as he is not a threat to score with our offensive sets Unlike Butler and Faw, at least Benzan is trying to make plays for his teammates when he’s out there.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 6, 2019 17:56:36 GMT -5
Didn’t say he wasn’t doing that, and while we assess his talent differently we both agree he is an important and valuable member of the team.
With that said I think Benzan gets too many minutes for what he gives the team. I would also agree for now, at least at this point in time, Butler is given too much freedom offensively and could benefit from a few minutes on the bench with teaching sessions from the assistants. I completely disagree with you on Faw as I think his upside is very high and with Niego back -soon I hope- we will be a much better team with some added depth up front
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 6, 2019 18:00:22 GMT -5
Not a good game for Austin. Here's what KenPom has for o-Ratings for today's game 134= Pat Benzan 96= Jehyve Floyd 75= Jacob Grandison 68= Matt Faw 62= Austin Butler 48= Caleb Green And - floor burns, energy, hustle, and the intangible blue-collar appeal aside - not a great season so far. Don't have KenPom numbers, but based on other sources, it looks like his ORtg is significantly lower than last year, and lowest among the six guys in the rotation. Per 40 minutes, his FG% is up, rebounds down some, and turnovers have doubled. Like others, I'm glad he's on our side, but believe his development, year over year, lags Caleb's and Grandy's.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 6, 2019 18:09:12 GMT -5
KY75 agree about his season so far But I don’t believe there is enough trusted depth ( by the coaching staff) for real time teaching to take place this year. You will get great hustle out of him, but you must remember the good, bad, and ugly of his game comes from his role in high school as a QB-Athletic but wants to make every play. Once he realizes he just needs to contribute he will be just fine
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Post by crosspride on Jan 6, 2019 18:17:54 GMT -5
Didn’t say he wasn’t doing that, and while we assess his talent differently we both agree he is an important and valuable member of the team. With that said I think Benzan gets too many minutes for what he gives the team. I would also agree for now, at least at this point in time, Butler is given too much freedom offensively and could benefit from a few minutes on the bench with teaching sessions from the assistants. I completely disagree with you on Faw as I think his upside is very high and with Niego back -soon I hope- we will be a much better team with some added depth up front Who would you play instead? We have 6 players getting meaningful playing time. Carmody hasn't had much luck with recruiting wins and/or keeping them eligible, so Benzan needs to get all the minutes he's getting.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 6, 2019 18:18:44 GMT -5
Haven't seen the game stats yet but by eyeball, this was a very bad performance by Austin today. I used to think when he is on the floor multiple times a game, it indicated how hard he was playing. He must have been on the floor at least 5-6 times today, even more than his usual. I have to agree with others that he is playing beyond his capabilities. I think he is trying too hard and thinks he can give the fictitious 110%. With Jehyve on the bench, I think that he puts even more pressure on himself. Like others, I also noted that we were playing a very small line-up when JF went to the bench. But even when Jehyve got back in, we made a run but couldn't sustain it. LeSann had barely a cameo performance. Copeland not much more. Ziggy not at all that I noticed. We sure need Connor back! Don't despair, fans, this team doesn't quit and they will bounce back. Not a good game for Austin. Here's what KenPom has for o-Ratings for today's game 134= Pat Benzan 96= Jehyve Floyd 75= Jacob Grandison 68= Matt Faw 62= Austin Butler 48= Caleb Green Crazy thing about data in looking at this - I would agree with Floyd, Grandison and Faw, but think the shooting and play of others hurts Green I think Green could be a dynamite pg but he might defer too much to Benzan when they are on the floor together-imho not a good combo sure many disagree but
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jan 6, 2019 18:22:20 GMT -5
I completely disagree with you on Faw as I think his upside is very high and with Niego back -soon I hope- we will be a much better team with some added depth up front Faw is a very good shooter, but his limited agility and athleticism really hurt in defense and rebounding, and he has only 12 assists in 343 minutes (1.4 per 40 minutes). He’s a catch-and-shoot stretch 4 (as is Niego), who struggles defending athletic opposing stretch 4’s or opposing bigs with size who play inside — without being able to defend a position or rebound at a high level, I’m not sure how high his upside actually is.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 6, 2019 18:23:36 GMT -5
I think Caleb Green has moved forward a great deal this year-- a smart player, a real leader. The only issue for me is his three point shooting: 34-110= .309 last year; and now 12-47 .255 this season to date.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 6, 2019 18:26:32 GMT -5
Didn’t say he wasn’t doing that, and while we assess his talent differently we both agree he is an important and valuable member of the team. With that said I think Benzan gets too many minutes for what he gives the team. I would also agree for now, at least at this point in time, Butler is given too much freedom offensively and could benefit from a few minutes on the bench with teaching sessions from the assistants. I completely disagree with you on Faw as I think his upside is very high and with Niego back -soon I hope- we will be a much better team with some added depth up front Who would you play instead? We have 6 players getting meaningful playing time. Carmody hasn't had much luck with recruiting wins and/or keeping them eligible, so Benzan needs to get all the minutes he's getting. I so disagree that he deserves ALL the minutes he is getting, despite the roster pressures, but you already know that- he deserves time but more like 12-15 min per game honestly I would give some time to Hargis and more time to Copeland and LeSann and give them the same freedom as is given to PB but I go back to an important basic fact coaches coach players play parents and fans dream but should have have no say i am a fan so I have no say
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Post by efg72 on Jan 6, 2019 18:30:47 GMT -5
I completely disagree with you on Faw as I think his upside is very high and with Niego back -soon I hope- we will be a much better team with some added depth up front Faw is a very good shooter, but his limited agility and athleticism really hurt in defense and rebounding, and he has only 12 assists in 343 minutes (1.4 per 40 minutes). He’s a catch-and-shoot stretch 4 (as is Niego), who struggles defending athletic opposing stretch 4’s or opposing bigs with size who play inside — without being able to defend a position or rebound at a high level, I’m not sure how high his upside actually is. Offensively I agree, but I believe as he/they continue to grow into their bodies, get stronger and develop I believe their reactions and quickness, defense and understanding of the game will improve. but time will tell
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Post by lou on Jan 6, 2019 18:32:47 GMT -5
We played them even in the first half with Jehyve on the bench and Faw doing some scoring. Second half Jehyve played, Faw mostly sat I believe and Benzan played. So even with Jehyve playing we actually played [1 point] better in the first half then the second
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Post by efg72 on Jan 6, 2019 18:35:24 GMT -5
I think Caleb Green has moved forward a great deal this year-- a smart player, a real leader. The only issue for me is his three point shooting: 34-110= .309 last year; and now 12-47 .255 this season to date. Agree but think, or want to believe, he can do so much more offensively not sure he looks to score enough, but the offense, while it allows for individual play, isn’t necessarily designed for it
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jan 6, 2019 19:03:25 GMT -5
For the record, I made a comparison of AB/JG to Vicens/Potter.....but ONLY in terms of court demeanor (fire and ice, if you will). That's all, period.
I make no apologies for being a big fan of Austin. Yes, there is no doubt he has had a tendency of trying to do too much, and needs to find that happy medium between being aggressive and being out of control. On the other hand, I can recall many instances over the years of people pi$$ing and moaning about guys being afraid to take a shot. And - if Austin has been as banged up as I suspect he has been, I give him a pat on the back for gutting it out. How you would like to lose him now for the next 3-4 weeks. You really think the team will be better off? I'm also trying to figure out if some of these comments imply he is selfish. If so, total BS as far as I'm concerned.
While I will be interested in seeing if MF or CN can develop their high post passing game (what did we think of JF's passing game 2 years ago), I still believe Matt has the potential to be a really good scorer. I guess time will tell.
I'm more curious what the deal is with Ziggy. It's so hard to get info on injuries, but I just cannot believe that he is 100%, and not playing at all. At 100%, I feel like he would provide more versatility than either CLS or KC at this time. Just doesn't make sense. He also would provide a taller ball handling/free throw shooting alternative in the endgame.
It was a crappy loss for sure, and an opportunity lost. Still, there are 16 league games left. I have the feeling different teams are going to go on little runs. One week someone may look like they will run away, and then a couple of weeks later it could be someone else. Hope they just take it one at a time.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 6, 2019 19:05:17 GMT -5
Look, it was a lousy game by a young team that has played reasonably well for most of the season. Many have pointed out that there was likely to be ups and downs with this young team. Jehyve is good and has learned to play within himself but the rest of the front court has been weak on the boards and defensively as well. Grandison is a stand out scorer but not today. The Benzan/Green tandem has played well but not today. Butler??? Everything about him has been covered from every angle on this board. It appears that he is pressing, trying to do too much and thus taking bad shots and not playing a solid floor game. Pat Riley talks about the me, me attitude of some basketball players who try to do it all. I expect that they will all improve as a team with more experience and good coaching. Keep hope alive. LoveHC At 10-5 with such a young team, we should be pleased with the overall performance. Would we like more upper class leadership, outside of Floyd, of course. If it is perceived I am critical of any individual, that is not my intent, nor do I believe it is the intent of any on the board. It is little more than post game assessments that each of us would think make this a a better team today and into the future. Most of you are more knowledgeable than I would hope to be, but that is what gives the board life-an opportunity to express an opinion. So let’s keep hope alive as it is early in the season, yes we all love HC, and let the coaches figure out a path to the dance
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 6, 2019 19:11:29 GMT -5
Pat Benzan's O-Ratings per KenPom
Soph= 105.7 Junior= 99.0 Senior= 108.0
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Post by efg72 on Jan 6, 2019 19:13:58 GMT -5
Would bet 99% are fans of Austin and doubt people think he is selfish, but instead an intense competitor and leader that needs to take charge-the staff just needs to teach him how to manage his role over the next two years.
I believe Matt and Conor will be real leaders if not more by time they are seniors
With respect to Ziggy -I agree and can only assume he is injured or there are other issues
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Post by classof83 on Jan 6, 2019 19:26:09 GMT -5
Pat Benzan's O-Ratings per KenPom Soph= 105.7 Junior= 99.0 Senior= 108.0 I am not sue if these ratings are good or not, but I admit I expect more offense from PB. He is the most experienced player and I suspect has the most career game minutes of any other player on the team. IMO we should be getting more offensive production from him.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 6, 2019 19:30:04 GMT -5
Benzan knows his limitations on offense and picks his spots very nicely. He’s crafty enough that he’s able to score around the trees near the basket, but doesn’t force it. He rarely shoots from the perimeter as his shot isn’t consistent enough.
I think Benzan is giving us everything he realistically can on offense from a scoring perspective.
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