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Post by Tom on Jan 9, 2019 9:07:13 GMT -5
When HC was questioning whether to change the nickname from Crusader, many, including myself, questioned when it would all end. The answer might be "not soon"
The high school in my town is nicknamed the Mountaineers. It might have something to do with the fact that the school is named after a small mountain in its district. The logo is a mountain man running and holding a rifle. The school has put out a survey about how people feel about the nickname. I haven't seen the survey. It is my understanding that this was driven because there are some people who think it is inappropriate for the mascot to have a rifle. UMass had the exact same discussion some years ago about the Minuteman having a musket. That ended when someone in charge said the whole discussion was ridiculous and UMass would remain the Minutemen
To quote the noted philosopher Rosanne Rosannadanna, It's always something. If it's not one thing, it's another
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Post by thecrossisback on Jan 9, 2019 9:17:43 GMT -5
Having graduated out of Wachusett two years ago this is asinine. It's not even on teams jerseys or helmets. My parents got the email, about the survey a couple days ago, but when they went to check it. To many were already completed. So I did not get to see the questions. I am so tired of this nonsense. Who ever is complaining about this needs to find a better way to use their free time.
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Post by lou on Jan 9, 2019 9:40:55 GMT -5
I'm not sure its one thing or another. Do you really need a guy running around with a rifle because you have mountain near by? Sorry I have no tolerance for guns, symbolic or otherwise.
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Post by gks on Jan 9, 2019 9:45:20 GMT -5
I'm not sure its one thing or another. Do you really need a guy running around with a rifle because you have mountain near by? Sorry I have no tolerance for guns, symbolic or otherwise. Really? People need to take a deep breath. It is a cartoon of a guy with a musket. He's not wearing shoes...is this offensive too? Think of the hillbillies that Bugs Bunny square dances with in the old cartoon.
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Post by lou on Jan 9, 2019 9:48:39 GMT -5
I'm not sure its one thing or another. Do you really need a guy running around with a rifle because you have mountain near by? Sorry I have no tolerance for guns, symbolic or otherwise. Really? People need to take a deep breath. It is a cartoon of a guy with a musket. He's not wearing shoes...is this offensive too? Think of the hillbillies that Bugs Bunny square dances with in the old cartoon. If you live there and like the mascot keep it. I don't live there, and I'm not offended
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 9, 2019 10:30:43 GMT -5
I'm not sure its one thing or another. Do you really need a guy running around with a rifle because you have mountain near by? Sorry I have no tolerance for guns, symbolic or otherwise. Do you pressure politicians to disarm their security details? How about guards in banks...no guns? How well will the military do its job without guns? How about hunters? Just asking. Absolute positions interest me.
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Post by lou on Jan 9, 2019 10:51:16 GMT -5
I'm not sure its one thing or another. Do you really need a guy running around with a rifle because you have mountain near by? Sorry I have no tolerance for guns, symbolic or otherwise. Do you pressure politicians to disarm their security details? How about guards in banks...no guns? How well will the military do its job without guns? How about hunters? Just asking. Absolute positions interest me. C'mon Bob. Pretty sure you can make the distinction. Haven't seen many armed guards in my credit union lately, but I was in Grand Central Station yesterday and I'm very happy to see our show of force in important potential targets
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 9, 2019 10:51:58 GMT -5
I say, get rid of the musket and replace it with a peaceful sword or, even better, a lance. And maybe put him on a horse and wearing some cool armor. Could maybe carry a shield, you know, for defensive protection. [Apologies to 8485. I'm going to "catch it" tonight! ]. Keep the name Mountaineers if the mount is Mt. St. James. Oh, crapola, I think I just gave somebody an idea for a new Holy Cross mascot - the Mountaineers! P.S. This is all Tom's fault!
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 9, 2019 10:58:13 GMT -5
Do you pressure politicians to disarm their security details? How about guards in banks...no guns? How well will the military do its job without guns? How about hunters? Just asking. Absolute positions interest me. C'mon Bob. Pretty sure you can make the distinction. Are you not able to make the distinction then between a cartoon figure holding a hunting rifle?
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 9, 2019 11:00:31 GMT -5
Do you pressure politicians to disarm their security details? How about guards in banks...no guns? How well will the military do its job without guns? How about hunters? Just asking. Absolute positions interest me. C'mon Bob. Pretty sure you can make the distinction. Haven't seen many armed guards in my credit union lately, but I was in Grand Central Station yesterday and I'm very happy to see our show of force in important potential targets That is good to hear. When you said "no" tolerance, it seemed a bit extreme. "Qualified" tolerance I have no issue with.
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Post by lou on Jan 9, 2019 11:02:28 GMT -5
C'mon Bob. Pretty sure you can make the distinction. Are you not able to make the distinction then between a cartoon figure holding a hunting rifle? This was the description mountain man running and holding a rifle.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 9, 2019 11:03:00 GMT -5
C'mon Bob. Pretty sure you can make the distinction. Are you not able to make the distinction then between a cartoon figure holding a hunting rifle? I am not sure who it is you are addressing. I certainly can make that distinction. Some at UMass could not...and the school had enough sense to ignore them. Would that we had followed their lead in that regard. But, after all, the headlines about tragic deaths from foam swords make many think twice...or might if there had ever been any.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 9, 2019 11:08:38 GMT -5
We are witnessing, on a national scale, a competition in virtue signaling. The participants vie for points by making their observations or demands on any subject big or small. Any subject you can think about, no matter how positive or benign, can be picked apart and demonstrated to be filled with hateful imagery. Here's one: The Andy Griffith Show--one of the greatest TV shows of all time that taught lessons about family and loyal friendship and doing the right thing via gentle humor. Well, some might have been fooled into buying that claptrap but the astute observers of today would tell you that it showcases toxic masculinity, presents women as one dimensional stereotypes, has no important characters of color, lionizes a father who neglects his son's health by allowing him to walk barefoot to a fishing hole, and on and on. See? It's easy. Nothing is safe, particularly a white mountaineer carrying a rifle. Holy Cross embarrassed itself by caving in on the Crusader--good to see that UMass had the sense to maintain a character important to the founding of our country.
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Post by gks on Jan 9, 2019 11:16:05 GMT -5
We are witnessing, on a national scale, a competition in virtue signaling. The participants vie for points by making their observations or demands on any subject big or small. Any subject you can think about, no matter how positive or benign, can be picked apart and demonstrated to be filled with hateful imagery. Here's one: The Andy Griffith Show--one of the greatest TV shows of all time that taught lessons about family and loyal friendship and doing the right thing via gentle humor. Well, some might have been fooled into buying that claptrap but the astute observers of today would tell you that it showcases toxic masculinity, presents women as one dimensional stereotypes, has no important characters of color, lionizes a father who neglects his son's health by allowing him to walk barefoot to a fishing hole, and on and on. See? It's easy. Nothing is safe, particularly a white mountaineer carrying a rifle. Holy Cross embarrassed itself by caving in on the Crusader--good to see that UMass had the sense to maintain a character important to the founding of our country. Here is the culprit in question.....
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Post by Tom on Jan 9, 2019 11:19:34 GMT -5
Really? People need to take a deep breath. It is a cartoon of a guy with a musket. He's not wearing shoes...is this offensive too? Think of the hillbillies that Bugs Bunny square dances with in the old cartoon. If you live there and like the mascot keep it. I don't live there, and I'm not offendedWell here's a refreshing take. Lou is not a fan of guns, but isn't offended by a cartoon of one. He is the counter example to my point that some people seem to be looking for things to be offended by. Then after finding something offensive they want it banned. Yes there is some offensive stuff out there, but we are at a point that's ridiculous. It's kind of ironic that it's so crazy it could almost be a Seinfeld plot and that show is getting some of the same treatment
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Jan 9, 2019 12:16:54 GMT -5
You cannot give one inch to the social justice warrior/politically correct mob. Keep the mascot, gun and all. If PC mob doesn’t like it they can go to their safe spaces and crying rooms.
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Post by Tom on Jan 9, 2019 16:23:30 GMT -5
My parents got the email, about the survey a couple days ago, but when they went to check it. To many were already completed. So I did not get to see the questions. By a strange coincidence, I spoke with someone a little bit ago who got the survey. In terms of the representation of the mascot (in the picture above) there was a question if the rifle bothered the respondent. There was a separate question if the gender bothered the respondent.
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Post by timholycross on Jan 9, 2019 16:56:35 GMT -5
What's ironic is that there's a pretty significant number of schools in Massachusetts whose name has some Native American connotation and several of those names that have a nickname that's been a target for a number of years now: Algonquin Tomahawks, King Philip and Nipmuc Warriors, Masconomet and Nashoba Chieftains, etc. Wachusett doesn't have that issue and they are still being nagged about something.
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Post by timholycross on Jan 10, 2019 10:30:17 GMT -5
This is a very interesting discussion. Now, may I add a little spice to the sauce.This may be off "target"(mixed metaphor) but so many on this board are having a high minded, very intelligent discussion about the appropriateness of the depiction of guns in various school mascots. In my view one should bear in mind that this discussion is taking place against the backdrop of a culture that is saturated with guns and gun violence. As an aside ,I have family out west in Montana, Oregon, Colorado and California as well ( A big family, I know.) And some tell me that gun possession and use are an integral part of life out west. A hand gun is almost universally kept in the glove compartments of their cars. (It does stop arguments over parking spaces!) Shotguns and rifles are commonly kept in the home. Many carry hand guns in public places. Parents hand on to their youngins' a gun and they go shooting, together. In fact I have been told that the gun is a part of a right of passage for many youngsters in much of the West. All this was very interesting to me. America has a gun culture unlike any in the developed world. Our murder rate due to gun violence is by far the highest in the developed world. Is there a connection between guns depicted in mascots and our having a gun culture with many gun related deaths? Are the gun toting mascots a reflection of our gun culture? Do these mascots feed our love of guns, make them more acceptable? Are these mascots strengthening our gun culture? I tend to doubt it myself. Maybe it is much ado about nothing or maybe it is not.. But, I think we should listen with deference to Lou and keep an open mind about this issue with the realization that we live in a gun culture. No political views on gun control one way or the other were expressed or intended. LoveHC Agreed that they could make a different cartoon hillbilly sans rifle. The question is, regretfully, does the gunless mountaineer offend someone else for some other reason?
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Post by Tom on Jan 10, 2019 10:55:11 GMT -5
Based on my later info on the survey, the answer is "yes" since there was equal mention of the Mountaineer's gender
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 10, 2019 11:27:17 GMT -5
Based on my later info on the survey, the answer is "yes" since there was equal mention of the Mountaineer's gender Okay, then, add a drawing of Elly Mae Clampett and we're good to go
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jan 10, 2019 12:26:44 GMT -5
This is a very interesting discussion. Now, may I add a little spice to the sauce.This may be off "target"(mixed metaphor) but so many on this board are having a high minded, very intelligent discussion about the appropriateness of the depiction of guns in various school mascots. In my view one should bear in mind that this discussion is taking place against the backdrop of a culture that is saturated with guns and gun violence. As an aside ,I have family out west in Montana, Oregon, Colorado and California as well ( A big family, I know.) And some tell me that gun possession and use are an integral part of life out west. A hand gun is almost universally kept in the glove compartments of their cars. (It does stop arguments over parking spaces!) Shotguns and rifles are commonly kept in the home. Many carry hand guns in public places. Parents hand on to their youngins' a gun and they go shooting, together. In fact I have been told that the gun is a part of a right of passage for many youngsters in much of the West. All this was very interesting to me. America has a gun culture unlike any in the developed world. Our murder rate due to gun violence is by far the highest in the developed world. Is there a connection between guns depicted in mascots and our having a gun culture with many gun related deaths? Are the gun toting mascots a reflection of our gun culture? Do these mascots feed our love of guns, make them more acceptable? Are these mascots strengthening our gun culture? I tend to doubt it myself. Maybe it is much ado about nothing or maybe it is not.. But, I think we should listen with deference to Lou and keep an open mind about this issue with the realization that we live in a gun culture. No political views on gun control one way or the other were expressed or intended. LoveHC Agreed that they could make a different cartoon hillbilly sans rifle. The question is, regretfully, does the gunless mountaineer offend someone else for some other reason? Maybe a perceived lack of hygiene?
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Post by Ray on Jan 10, 2019 12:52:08 GMT -5
You cannot give one inch to the social justice warrior/politically correct mob. Keep the mascot, gun and all. If PC mob doesn’t like it they can go to their safe spaces and crying rooms.
This post stands out in this thread, for all the wrong reasons. Be better than this.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Jan 10, 2019 14:00:48 GMT -5
You cannot give one inch to the social justice warrior/politically correct mob. Keep the mascot, gun and all. If PC mob doesn’t like it they can go to their safe spaces and crying rooms.
This post stands out in this thread, for all the wrong reasons. Be better than this.
Perhaps the problem are those that find offense in things that are not offensive and wish to ban harmless mascots that 99% of the people have no issue with. The people that want to erase history and ban everything need to be better.
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Post by alum on Jan 10, 2019 14:47:09 GMT -5
Isn't it a bit obnoxious for uninvolved people, as most of us are for this latest dustup, to tell people at a particular school what they should believe and how they should act? There are clearly a small number of mascots that are likely malum in se and that we would all agree ought to go. The most prominent example would be the the old mascot at Pekin High www.cbsnews.com/pictures/controversial-mascots/13/On the other hand, there are mascots which might be appropriate at some schools and not at others. If a Montana high school with an outstanding competitive shooting program was called the Riflemen, I think that it would be wrong to tell them they had to get rid of the name because of school shootings. On the other hand, if Newtown High had been the Riflemen in honor of the pro-gun organization in town, I cannot imagine any sane person would be angered by a decision to change it after the horrible events of 12/14/12. Maybe we ought to mind our own business about what schools and communities with which we have no relationship choose to do. If the results of the Wachusett survey reveal that large majorities of the students, faculty, alumni, and community at large want to do away with the name, why should they be condemned? Why do we have to assume that it is just some snowflake, liberal, social justice warrior knee jerk reaction? Isn't it possible that the people are just not happy with the mascot? Similarly, if the community wants to keep the mascot, they should get to do so.
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