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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 10, 2019 18:03:45 GMT -5
Criswell's injury was far more serious. It was potentially life-threatening when it occurred, and left him with a dropped foot. We honored his scholarship (as we should have), but he was never going to play competitively again.
By the way, Riley's dad suffered a traumatic head injury in September 2017. This family has been through a lot.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 10, 2019 18:28:34 GMT -5
I'm sure Riley's was worse. That's why I said "a variation of . . . "
Here's what I responded to: That's 3 of 4 years and perhaps 4 of 4. Would you have preferred I suggested Perkins? Point is, an athlete being injured and not being able to play in college.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jan 10, 2019 18:38:48 GMT -5
Criswell's injury was far more serious. It was potentially life-threatening when it occurred, and left him with a dropped foot. We honored his scholarship (as we should have), but he was never going to play competitively again.
By the way, Riley's dad suffered a traumatic head injury in September 2017. This family has been through a lot.
Thanks for sharing, WooGray. They certainly have been through a lot. Hopefully things have gotten better.
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Post by DiMarz on Jan 10, 2019 18:51:30 GMT -5
BBC said "The idea that Pat Benzan seems to catch the heat for every loss is getting more and more ridiculous. He may not have the best size, skill, athleticism, etc. but he gives max effort every possession of every game and makes smart plays the vast majority of the time. His consistent level of intensity and effort is matched only by Green & Floyd."
I agree 100%..The play I pointed out just happened at a critical junction of the game in my opinion...No one player should ever be held as the guy that lost a game..So many plays in 40 minutes, every player has a hand in every win and loss..
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Post by efg72 on Jan 10, 2019 19:21:33 GMT -5
BBC said "The idea that Pat Benzan seems to catch the heat for every loss is getting more and more ridiculous. He may not have the best size, skill, athleticism, etc. but he gives max effort every possession of every game and makes smart plays the vast majority of the time. His consistent level of intensity and effort is matched only by Green & Floyd." I agree 100%..The play I pointed out just happened at a critical junction of the game in my opinion...No one player should ever be held as the guy that lost a game..So many plays in 40 minutes, every player has a hand in every win and loss.. Clearly he is not to blame-you win or lose as a team. He gives all he has, wants to win more than we do, but he is playing in a system that doesn’t work for him and his role on the team. If you are building a team you want all 12-15 players with his grit and competitive nature. imho he would be dynamite on a Lehigh or Bucknell roster because of their style of play- unfortunately we don’t offer him those options, but all that means is this team can’t benefit from his strengths and that my friends is not his fault. He deserves so much credit, but not minutes
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Post by possum on Jan 10, 2019 19:33:47 GMT -5
A few thoughts: Hard to believe that this late into the season a team (Lehigh) is shooting 47% from 3point land Some on the board have suggested you can't expect to win when someone shoots 10-14 from 3 point territory, well Lehigh weathered a first half that saw HC put up 59 points, shoot 70% from the field, 80% from 3 point territory and 100% from the line and despite that were able to stay in the game and keep the halftime deficit at 12 rather than 20-25. Class of 83 says it's hard to blame Carmody for transgressions as you can't keep track of players for 24 hours. Well I've been following the program for almost 60 years and cannot remember many incidents of this type behavior let alone four players being involved in back to back seasons. When you bring in the players you get the credit or blame for how they perform on and off the court. Class of 83 also says that due to these incidents the staff had to scurry around to fill the vacancies. There is nothing that says you need to use scholarships immediately to fill out the roster just because they're available.
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Post by crosspride on Jan 10, 2019 21:56:42 GMT -5
Just saw that the dunk by Lehigh’s Caleb Bennet was #4 on ESPN too plays today. It’s on the Lehigh Men’s Basketball twitter account. Another example of how these guys are being taught to run the guy off the 3 point line. I believe Carmody has said that phrase a few times before. Bennett makes an average ball fake and both Floyd and Benzan run right by, creating a WIDE open lane to the hoop.
It’s completely pathetic defense. Don’t care who’s at fault, Floyd and Benzan or Carmody, but it looks like defense you’d see in 1st grade basketball
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jan 10, 2019 22:16:31 GMT -5
Just saw that the dunk by Lehigh’s Caleb Bennet was #4 on ESPN too plays today. It’s on the Lehigh Men’s Basketball twitter account. Another example of how these guys are being taught to run the guy off the 3 point line. I believe Carmody has said that phrase a few times before. Bennett makes an average ball fake and both Floyd and Benzan run right by, creating a WIDE open lane to the hoop. It’s completely pathetic defense. Don’t care who’s at fault, Floyd and Benzan or Carmody, but it looks like defense you’d see in 1st grade basketball Yikes, that whole possession is a disaster. Two different instances of two HC defenders playing the ball. First when Butler runs out at a guy who was already being guarded, and then after everything broke down, no communication between Benzan and Floyd for who had the guy in the corner, so both of them just executed poor closeouts together. Just really, really poor scheme and fundamentals.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jan 11, 2019 6:15:21 GMT -5
A few thoughts: Class of 83 says it's hard to blame Carmody for transgressions as you can't keep track of players for 24 hours. Well I've been following the program for almost 60 years and cannot remember many incidents of this type behavior let alone four players being involved in back to back seasons. When you bring in the players you get the credit or blame for how they perform on and off the court. Class of 83 also says that due to these incidents the staff had to scurry around to fill the vacancies. There is nothing that says you need to use scholarships immediately to fill out the roster just because they're available. Sorry in advance, but I have to rant here. Unless there is evidence there was a pattern of such incidents/behavior with the former players prior to their arrival to HC (like there was with Aaron Hernandez, for example). I don't see how anyone could hold the coach responsible. That's the problem with society - it's always somebody else's fault. I sure hope the players accepted full responsibility for their actions; if not, they may be in for more problems down the road.
It looks bad because it happened in back to back years, but how is there any connection? BBC has brought up Coach Carmody's record at Northwestern dozens of times; I would assume if there were similar player issues there (or at Princeton) he would have brought them to the table by now. So, if the coach's overall record is brought up time and time again, don't you also have to include that when discussing these types of issues? Over the period of 20+ years, I'm sure there are a lot of coaches that have experienced this.
Now sure, as it affects things ON the court, he will need to be held responsible on the effect this has. In the short term, I don't think there is any doubt it's hurt to not have either KC or JS at his disposal. I felt that would be the case this year; no shock to me. But we have to wait to see how Hargis and Verbeek turn out down the road to make any final judgements, as far as I'm concerned.
Sorry for the rant, but it irks me to no end to not hold 18-20 year old adults 100% responsible for their actions.
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Post by Tom on Jan 11, 2019 9:38:38 GMT -5
Sorry for the rant, but it irks me to no end to not hold 18-20 year old adults 100% responsible for their actions.
Fair points. Coach Carmody gets a share of the blame from the buck stops here theory. That being said, it has been suggested that there is a culture that makes the guys think they this behavior is acceptable. This isn't Kansas where there's a one game suspension for raping a female student. As soon as an issue came to light, these guys were gone. The issue was dealt with quickly and quite severely. Even if you were inclined to shift blame away from the culprits, it's hard to say the staff creates an atmosphere that lets the guys think breaking rules is tolerable
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jan 11, 2019 9:58:49 GMT -5
Sorry for the rant, but it irks me to no end to not hold 18-20 year old adults 100% responsible for their actions.
Fair points. Coach Carmody gets a share of the blame from the buck stops here theory. That being said, it has been suggested that there is a culture that makes the guys think they this behavior is acceptable. This isn't Kansas where there's a one game suspension for raping a female student. As soon as an issue came to light, these guys were gone. The issue was dealt with quickly and quite severely. Even if you were inclined to shift blame away from the culprits, it's hard to say the staff creates an atmosphere that lets the guys think breaking rules is tolerable Did the school have a choice? With what these guys were doing, if they continued to let them play, the program and athletic department would have been in serious trouble. My biggest issue is that there was a serious incident with Cohen the previous year that should have provided the staff with a wake up call to get the whole team in line. But then the next year you have THREE guys commiting serious violations. It suggests that Carmody may not have a full handle on the program. I do agree with NAD that 18-20 year olds should be held accountable, but I also think a basketball coach making 300-400k should be capable of establishing a culture of discipline that prevents a situation where four guys are thrown off the team in 12-14 months.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 11, 2019 10:21:25 GMT -5
An interesting discussion. I am inclined to agree with some good points that both Dave and possum make, even if they are on opposite sides of the spectrum.
On one hand, Bill Carmody and his staff are there to coach basketball (obviously); they are not responsible for babysitting their players during non-basketball activities, on the weekends, during free time, etc. We all make decisions -- both good and bad -- and an 18 year old kid needs to be held responsible for them. Period.
On the other side of the coin, it is a bit unsettling that there were two separate incidents that happened in consecutive years that caused three scholarship players to be removed from the program. To possum's point, have we ever seen separate incidents in back to back years that has caused scholarships to be pulled?
It's fair to wonder what the culture within the program is like, especially a couple of years ago when you had Carmody coming in and inheriting a team with no one he recruited. I'll take you back to 2008 when Devin Brown was a freshman. I'm comfortable mentioning this because DB has gone onto great things professionally post-HC, but as an incoming freshman he had a lot of growing up to do. Fortunately, due to the culture that Willard had created in the program, the upperclassmen on the team quickly got DB in line. I believe that Willard was actually pretty close to kicking DB off the team, but it never came to that because guys like Pat Doherty, AVB, Keister, etc. straightened him out.
I mention this because I wonder if two years ago -- when Tyron Coen did what he did -- if he would have been dissuaded from committing what he did had a similar culture been in place. Of course, you could argue there was a good culture in the program and TC was simply a young, immature kid who made a very poor decision, but then the following year we saw one of the supposed leaders on the team make another stupid decision that cost him his basketball career.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 11, 2019 10:27:14 GMT -5
bbc, IMHO, it suggests nothing of the kind. Did the school have a choice? Certainly...as can be seen by different actions at other schools. The size of a salary has no relationship to the ethics of the person receiving it. There are many coaching millionaires who provide evidence of that. Each of the offenders at Holy Cross was immediately suspended, given a hearing and then dismissed from the team. That behavior is far above programs that (with coaches' blessings) give a player a slap on the wrist or suspend a player for a game or two that do not mean much. They then act as though they are pillars of virtue...which they are not. Does it "suggest" anything about the coach. Perhaps. But why would a suggestion become a recurring diatribe against the coach? I feel (my opinion alone) that is over the top. It would certainly be better had nothing happened but hat is water under the bridge. (Dies theca that a player years ago was arrested and then put theta surest anything out that coach? Not really.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 11, 2019 10:27:40 GMT -5
I don't know what transgressions any of the players committed so, for me at least, it's impossible to see what the basketball coach and players might have/should have been able to do to head off the problems.
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Post by timholycross on Jan 11, 2019 10:37:49 GMT -5
Tim, IIRC when her drove underneath at the end of the game, the replay showed the defender hit him across both arms before he took that shot. That may have been what prevented him from passing to the perimeter. He just doesn't do enough to get calls under there. He's short and can't jump very well. I guess you can say that's another reason his minutes should not be as much as they are...he'll do more than enough positive things out there to warrant playing time but eventually his limitations catch up with him and the team. The other thing is: it would be nice to have another person to put out there at the end of a game with a lead. His foul shooting is below average; not as bad as Floyd but bad enough that the opposition should be choosing him to grab.
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Post by timholycross on Jan 11, 2019 10:47:05 GMT -5
A variation of our own Riley Criswell? And, sadly, looks like Riley's dad is a variation on Jimmy Schnurr (horrific bike accident).
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Post by timholycross on Jan 11, 2019 10:54:07 GMT -5
I don't know what transgressions any of the players committed so, for me at least, it's impossible to see what the basketball coach and players might have/should have been able to do to head off the problems. Based on rumors as to what happened, it would appear that Cohen did what he did, got caught and was gone. Not sure under those circumstances there was much to tip anyone off unless he had a track record of issues pre-Holy Cross that someone could have tipped HC off about. The other guys' situation seems a lot more complicated and unless one of the players does an interview some time, we're never going to know. My guess is the NCAA went away as soon as HC disappeared (as Casey Stengel would say) the players.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 11, 2019 11:05:42 GMT -5
Pat Benzan is not a bad free throw shooter. He's at .705 for his career and I'll bet he makes 7 out of 10 the rest of the season. He's second on the team, JF is #1, in "free throw rate" and second in steal rate per KenPom. He also has the lowest turnover rate on the team. He's not a good jump shooter--no disagreement there--but, in my opinion, he's a very smart player who brings a lot to the team.
He's the only player on the team with more steals than turnovers. His assists to turnover ratio is nearly 4 to 1.
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Post by trimster on Jan 11, 2019 11:19:12 GMT -5
Pat Benzan is not a bad free throw shooter. He's at .705 for his career and I'll bet he makes 7 out of 10 the rest of the season. He's second on the team, JF is #1, in "free throw rate" and second in steal rate per KenPom. He also has the lowest turnover rate on the team. He's not a good jump shooter--no disagreement there--but, in my opinion, he's a very smart player who brings a lot to the team. He's the only player on the team with more steals than turnovers. His assists to turnover ratio is nearly 4 to 1. It's too bad PB didn't get a chance to make two free throws with the Lehigh game on the line. When I saw the reply of the action that led to an HC turnover, I couldn't believe one the stripes didn't call a foul on the Lehigh defender who very clearly whacked Benzan across both arms. That was a huge non call.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 11, 2019 11:37:01 GMT -5
I don't know what transgressions any of the players committed so, for me at least, it's impossible to see what the basketball coach and players might have/should have been able to do to head off the problems. I think this is the most reasonable position any of us can take at the moment about the events of last February. Unlike the problems with the soccer program years ago, there has been no report made public, as far as I know (and I check the NCAA media site regularly) . . . www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center . . . nor has there been any official statement on the Holy Cross blog . . .
1. We do know that for about six months last year, Holy Cross was "extending opportunities to play" to 2019 and 2020 prospects rather than making "offers." Unless Carmody was so bored that he decided it would be fun to get creative with standard recruitment language, it's likely that this verbiage was imposed upon the staff from without. The 2019 OTPs ended when Joe Pridgen committed on August 1st. Quite plausible that the use of OTPs was mandated by the NCAA in the wake of the February problem. It's also possible, as Tim has suggested in a post here, that the NCAA was reining us in until we dealt fully and finally with the three miscreants, then went away at the end of July when they had exhausted their appeals
2. There are still "opportunities to play" in place - but no offers - to the 2020s. There was brief mention of an offer by SG Zarique Nutter, which he quickly deleted (see page 7 of the thread), and a VC notice of a reported offer to PG Jalen Leach, which VC quickly deleted (p. 9). VC is not showing any 2020 HC offers at this time. May or may not mean anything.
3. The Perkins situation remains puzzling to me. Do we have 13 basketball scholarship kids on the roster (with Perkins counting against that number, but in a non-play status), or only 12 (with Perkins being "criswelled" and not counting). Not clear to me, at least. If we only have 12, why?
If we don't see any kind of official report in the next month or two, maybe there won't be one after all. And we'll probably never know exactly what happened .
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Post by Tom on Jan 11, 2019 12:52:27 GMT -5
3. The Perkins situation remains puzzling to me. Do we have 13 basketball scholarship kids on the roster (with Perkins counting against that number, but in a non-play status), or only 12 (with Perkins being "criswelled" and not counting). Not clear to me, at least. If we only have 12, why?
If we don't see any kind of official report in the next month or two, maybe there won't be one after all. And we'll probably never know exactly what happened .
FWIW - Perkins is listed on the school's website as #14 on the roster. Criswell was always a numberless player on the roster even though he had a number (30) I'm pretty sure Perkins is the 13th scholarship
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Post by possum on Jan 11, 2019 13:01:54 GMT -5
I know we all complain about the lack of media coverage for the program but in this case it has worked to the school's benefit as they have been effective in basically burying these stories. If these incidents had happened in the 70's when the program was hot and the local paper was really covering the team I'm sure we would know exactly what went on. If you remember King Gaskins was a front page story when he had his problems with the law. WooGray is probably right we will never know the full story.
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Post by classof83 on Jan 11, 2019 13:12:18 GMT -5
3. The Perkins situation remains puzzling to me. Do we have 13 basketball scholarship kids on the roster (with Perkins counting against that number, but in a non-play status), or only 12 (with Perkins being "criswelled" and not counting). Not clear to me, at least. If we only have 12, why?
If we don't see any kind of official report in the next month or two, maybe there won't be one after all. And we'll probably never know exactly what happened .
FWIW - Perkins is listed on the school's website as #14 on the roster. Criswell was always a numberless player on the roster even though he had a number (30) I'm pretty sure Perkins is the 13th scholarship So who are the Freshman Walk-Ons and who are on Scholarship? With what happened last year and the uncertainty of NCAA sanctions, I am not sure.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 11, 2019 13:13:24 GMT -5
FWIW - Perkins is listed on the school's website as #14 on the roster. Criswell was always a numberless player on the roster even though he had a number (30) I'm pretty sure Perkins is the 13th scholarship So who are the Freshman Walk-Ons and who are on Scholarship? With what happened last year and the uncertainty of NCAA sanctions, I am not sure. Hargis and Verbeek are the only scholarship freshmen.
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Post by classof83 on Jan 11, 2019 13:37:20 GMT -5
If Perkins is a counted scholarship do we still have 1 scholarship available for next year?
Graduating: Benzan, Perkins, Floyd, Zignorski
Signed: Lowder, Wade, Pridgen
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