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Post by HC92 on Apr 27, 2019 21:23:13 GMT -5
The total expenditures tell us very little in terms of what type of advantages Gibbons had or didn’t have relative to his peers. If he made $50k-$100k more than his average peer, that wouldn’t provide him any advantage when it comes to getting players or winning games. If HC has to spend more on travel because every trip is an overnight while many other schools could take day trips, that wouldn’t provide him any advantage either but we’d be spending more money. Not defending BG but I have never been a big believer in looking at total reported expenditures as a means of assessing which coaches should have an advantage over others. Show me the line items and I’ll have an opinion as to who should have an advantage.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 27, 2019 21:55:52 GMT -5
I always felt bad for Mary Rose Campbell. She agreed to sacrifice a year of her career to come back for a fifth year and the prospects looked good for a great season. But the season, inexplicably it seemed, was a disappointment and now thanks to these scholarship and financial resource facts and figures that have been presented, it is explicable.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 27, 2019 22:02:17 GMT -5
The total expenditures tell us very little in terms of what type of advantages Gibbons had or didn’t have relative to his peers. If he made $50k-$100k more than his average peer, that wouldn’t provide him any advantage when it comes to getting players or winning games. If HC has to spend more on travel because every trip is an overnight while many other schools could take day trips, that wouldn’t provide him any advantage either but we’d be spending more money. Not defending BG but I have never been a big believer in looking at total reported expenditures as a means of assessing which coaches should have an advantage over others. Show me the line items and I’ll have an opinion as to who should have an advantage. Yes, gross spending can be misleading but scholarship vs non-scholarship is a blatant advantage I would think.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 29, 2019 13:27:46 GMT -5
Gibbons record.
Palazzi preceded Gibbons. In five seasons, Togo's teams never won fewer than 19 games.. > Gibbons took over 1985 season His first five seasons, he also never won fewer than 19 games. > Between 1991 and 1997, Gibbons had only two seasons winning fewer than 21 games. However, scollies for football and M/W basketball were grandfathered for Holy Cross and Fordham. (Fordham left except for football in 1995.) The other members awarded only need-based aid. Scholarships were allowed for M/W hoops for all schools in Jan 97, effective with the 98 season. > Between 1998 and 2003 seasons, HC won at least 21 games every season. Over those six seasons, FCBG's teams garnered five league championships, and one runner up. Beginning in 2004, the record went south. > Between 2004 and 2018, only two championships, and only two seasons with 20 wins, Over the last four seasons, not including 2019. 2015 15-17 2016 13-17 2017 8-22 2018 13-18 Dec 1996 article. www.mcall.com/news/mc-xpm-1996-12-11-3114668-story.htmlNot clear to me how many seasons between 1988 and 1998 that HC M/W hoops did not have any scollie players on the roster. But it appears that most of FCBG's success during his first two decades occurred when HC had a scollie advantage over other PL schools. When that advantage faded and ultimately disappeared, the record for the next 15 years became consistently mediocre. FYI- 1992-93 was the last year HC had scholarship athletes in basketball. I'm absolutely sure of that; the final scholarship men's class went to the NCAAs. Basically, one more year than football (last scholarship class was academic year 1991-2). Rob Feaster, class of 1995, was non-scholarship and, unfortunately, "non-indicative" of the caliber of ballplayer the College would be able to recruit, male or female. Unless HC's women had some super, impact-creating freshmen in the class of 1998-9; one cannot attribute any success Gibbons had between 1993-4 and 1998-9 (and he had a LOT of it) to a scholarship advantage.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 29, 2019 21:34:02 GMT -5
Thanks for the link to the Morning Call, the closest thing to a newspaper of record for the Patriot League, I guess. This article is over 22 years old, so none of the Presidents are likely the same but it was interesting to read the Lehigh President talking about preserving this beautiful league that has served us all so well. Before expansion I always felt the PL served HC least from a geographic basis. And because HC had a basketball program a cut above the PL before joining the league I always thought a case could be made that HC sacrificed the most when joining. Of course Holy Cross joined voluntarily so in reality if they sacrificed they chose to and felt it was in the college's best interests. Of the original seven schools, I thought Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell and Colgate were the core four and the league served them the best, but at the same time there was never a decidedly better option for Holy Cross.
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Post by trimster on Apr 30, 2019 7:01:37 GMT -5
There was a far better option at least from an athletic standpoint, that was presented a couple of years prior to the creation of the Colonia League. It was the Atlantic Ten, a league that was and continues to be, far superior to the PL. unlike the situation with the Big East, it was known publicly there was an invite on the table to HC. Both Ron Perry and George Blaney stated in the Worcester Telegram, it would be a good move for HC but a higher power would soon nix that idea. The rest as they say....
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 30, 2019 10:09:28 GMT -5
The 22.5 year old linked article lays out the participation case in 22 league sports with cost controls. That plus association with "near Ivys" probably sealed the deal for the PL with TPTB.
Lehigh and Lafayette as well as Army and Navy got to keep their storied rivalries in all sports with the formation of the PL. I'm not sure when HC and BC stopped playing twice a year in BB but after joining the PL it seemed contests between those two storied rivals in any sport was an afterthought. But that would have happened to some degree anyway.
We don't know how things would have worked out but perhaps we avoided a disaster of consistent losing in the A-10. I'd like to think not, but look at Fordham.
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Post by hc87 on Apr 30, 2019 11:14:39 GMT -5
Everybody goes to Fordham here...we could have been Richmond too.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 30, 2019 11:25:30 GMT -5
There was a far better option at least from an athletic standpoint, that was presented a couple of years prior to the creation of the Colonia League. It was the Atlantic Ten, a league that was and continues to be, far superior to the PL. unlike the situation with the Big East, it was known publicly there was an invite on the table to HC. Both Ron Perry and George Blaney stated in the Worcester Telegram, it would be a good move for HC but a higher power would soon nix that idea. The rest as they say.... It was printed in the Providence Journal in early 1982 that HC was in fact entering that league. A week later, they took someone else, 99% sure that the "nix" reference above was correct. Have agree with HC being in that league from the get-go. And, not that I would have loved it, but Brooks could have had its non-scholarship football league, given that football was all the PL was for its first 5 years. Finally, if HC A-10 basketball turned out to be Fordham-A10-level basketball, well it would have been easy to move down.
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Post by bison137 on Apr 30, 2019 11:30:10 GMT -5
I'm not sure when HC and BC stopped playing twice a year in BB but after joining the PL it seemed contests between those two storied rivals in any sport was an afterthought. But that would have happened to some degree anyway. HC last played BC twice a year in 1981-82, a full decade before the Patriot League. Even a few years before the MAAC.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 30, 2019 12:20:29 GMT -5
If we joined the A-10 we would have had UMass as a nearby league rival. Now we have B.U. and the Turnpike Trophy. It would have been UMass and the Rte. 9 trophy. Some nice apple orchards that sell fresh baked pies on that route, and no tolls.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 30, 2019 12:25:24 GMT -5
Bison, did Bucknell and Colgate have a long term rivalry with each other before joining the PL? I assume Bucknell has been playing both Lehigh and Lafayette for a century or more. Who else did Bucknell match up with regularly (way) back in the day?
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Post by Crucis#1 on Apr 30, 2019 13:44:03 GMT -5
Coach gibbons was the best coach up at holycross and I think its sad that he went out this way. Thank you coach gibbons for all the wins and championships at holycross. Interm ad says we couldnt compete in the leauge for championships well he dont know that 3 of the teams in our leauge were very good as well American bucknell lehigh.coach Bill gibbons has more wins by himself than mens lacrosse womans lacrosse field hockey volleyball and mens hockey coaches combined holycross needs a new ad and a new one quickly interm ad sullivan is already messing up programs in womans basketball and volleyball. Jury still out on WBB, but Volleyball was clearly the right call. www.thedp.com/article/2019/04/penn-volleyball-iain-braddak-athletics-mistreatment-mental-health-upenn-coachThe University of Pennsylvania Volleyball program is having major issues with their stability and culture. If the issues noted in the Daily Pennsylvania are parallel, it is understandable why the coaching changes were made by HC.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 30, 2019 15:01:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the link. There was no mention of the financial consequences for dismissing this Penn coach. I was surprised when IAD Sullivan announced a three year contract extension for the HC Softball coach. There is no comparison between our bright young softball coach and this guy at Penn except they are both coaches of non-revenue sports, and I don't see the advantage to schools outside of say power conferences like the SEC that has it's own national cable TV network to feature their minor sports, to obligate themselves to multi-year contracts in the minor sports. I wonder if Penn would like to dismiss this coach but would be on the hook for two or three more years of salary so are trying to tough it out? Or is the AD's refusal to meet with the student athlete an indication Penn Athletics is AFU? (All fouled up)
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Post by bison137 on Apr 30, 2019 15:38:16 GMT -5
Bison, did Bucknell and Colgate have a long term rivalry with each other before joining the PL? I assume Bucknell has been playing both Lehigh and Lafayette for a century or more. Who else did Bucknell match up with regularly (way) back in the day? Bucknell and Colgate often played each other in football and basketball, and some other sports, but were never in the same league prior to the PL. You are correct that Bucknell, Lehigh, and Lafayette have been in the same league for many years. In the 1960's and 1970's, they were in the old MAC, which included those three plus Temple, LaSalle, St. Joes, Rider, Delaware, Hofstra, Drexel, and Gettysburg (who was replaced by West Chester when Gburg opted not to go the D1 route). Then in the 1980's, those three were joined by Rider, Towson, Delaware, Drexel, and Hofstra in the ECC. Bucknell teams were good once Charlie Woollum arrived as coach in the late 1970's.
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Post by timholycross on May 1, 2019 9:26:44 GMT -5
I'm not sure when HC and BC stopped playing twice a year in BB but after joining the PL it seemed contests between those two storied rivals in any sport was an afterthought. But that would have happened to some degree anyway. HC last played BC twice a year in 1981-82, a full decade before the Patriot League. Even a few years before the MAAC. Actually, looks like the last year was a year before that...and the last two years they played two one game was at the old Gahden. One of them was in some kind of Friday/Saturday tournament. When the Big East went to the standard home-and-home conference schedule, that made getting dates for even one game that wasn't in November/December very difficult.
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Post by nhteamer on May 2, 2019 9:51:59 GMT -5
I'll bet a nickel Davidson regrets its move to the A-10
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Post by longsuffering on May 2, 2019 11:56:10 GMT -5
I'll bet a nickel Davidson regrets its move to the A-10 . Interesting question, so I googled "Davidson regrets joining A-10". What appeared was: "Pete Davidson and Ariana Grande regret getting tatoos." Conclusion:. It may be better to have a Davidson education than to be a celebrity named Davidson.
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Post by timholycross on May 2, 2019 15:53:23 GMT -5
I'll bet a nickel Davidson regrets its move to the A-10 . Interesting question, so I googled "Davidson regrets joining A-10". What appeared was: "Pete Davidson and Ariana Grande regret getting tatoos." Conclusion:. It may be better to have a Davidson education than to be a celebrity named Davidson. Yeah, but if you got to be Ariana Grande's boyfriend for a considerable amount of time, things couldn't be all that bad!
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Post by longsuffering on May 2, 2019 20:42:31 GMT -5
She's a cutie.
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