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Post by hcpride on Feb 28, 2019 10:44:06 GMT -5
Patriot League needs to step in a tell Georgetown to step up or get out. We're very happy to have them playing PL football.
(GU has an excellent academic reputation and a commendable applicant pool each year. They just don't see a need to grant full football schollies, build something like a stadium or a LAC, or schedule FBS to 'attract recruits' or whatever the argument is for doing so. I don't have a problem with that. )
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Post by gks on Feb 28, 2019 11:04:39 GMT -5
I don't think that anyone feels GU's stadium is D1 quality (or even good high school quality). However, a football program is clearly more than a stadium. The Georgetown coaches have done a good job with their limited resources and have fielded a team that has been able to compete in the PL. No doubt coaches are hamstrung and they do a phenomenal job. However I think they play up their 'woe is us' mentality when it comes to financial aid. If you're going to make everyone in the league be academically equal and play by the same rules (we can debate that another time) then commitment to a sport in the PL should be equal as well.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 28, 2019 11:12:27 GMT -5
I think the law/rule is that a league needs a minimum of 6 schools to get a playoff bid...not that I really care (but understand why many do...recruiting, differentiate ourselves from the Ancient VIII in that regard etc).
GTown and FU sort of have us (and the league in general) by the short hairs with this rule.
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Post by thecrossisback on Feb 28, 2019 15:23:52 GMT -5
We need to dump this league for football. The athletic department needs to seriously get on the phone and at least try to move out of this league. With 3 PA teams in it. Let's get into a conference where at least people can travel to watch the team play on the road.
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Post by joe on Feb 28, 2019 17:53:01 GMT -5
G’town has something figured out, some kind of game plan similar to what HC tried in the 90s under a “financial need” tag line, something similar to the Ivies, with the only difference compared to HC is that it’s working fairly well for them. You can’t google it, and you won’t find the recipe for it online. The cache of the school has something to do with it.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 28, 2019 17:53:33 GMT -5
Some people seem to think that the GU roster is comprised of full pays. It is not. It is likely that GU rosters 40, 50, perhaps more than 50 equivalencies.
A reason for GU not going the merit scollie route is Title IX. Given their M/F ratio, 60 merit scollies for football would probably mean adding 30 more scollies for the women's teams. That's easily $6 million more in additional cost, which is hard to stomach when you're paying an arm and a leg and a buttock cheek for men's hoops, and losing your shirt in doing so.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 28, 2019 18:19:05 GMT -5
Well, since I'll bet many GU alums and some students haven't thought about this solution, I might write to Gioia and suggest that they simply drop men's basketball since they are losing so much money on it and they have no more slaves they can sell to bail them out financially. [As an aside, it still boggles my mind that Georgetown and the Jesuits there owned slaves, much less that they sold them. Fully understanding that was many years ago, even then they had to know that was immoral].
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 28, 2019 19:52:26 GMT -5
Well, since I'll bet many GU alums and some students haven't thought about this solution, I might write to Gioia and suggest that they simply drop men's basketball since they are losing so much money on it and they have no more slaves they can sell to bail them out financially. [As an aside, it still boggles my mind that Georgetown and the Jesuits there owned slaves, much less that they sold them. Fully understanding that was many years ago, even then they had to know that was immoral]. You might use the familiar when you write him, i.e., 'Dear Jack,'. That way you won't come across as a complete stranger by omitting the Di from his surname. ______________________ As for the slaves, the Jesuits of France owned and operated great plantations (with slaves) in the West Indies. They ran these as commercial enterprises for the purpose of underwriting the cost of the French province. There was much money to be had from growing and exporting spices and sugar to Europe in the 18th Century. The Jesuits of the Maryland province first tried running their 'plantations' with indentured servants, but too few signed on and the Jesuits resorted to slaves as Plan B. Not that unlike contemporary America where native-born Americans will not do certain jobs these days, and the owner of a business or farm resorts to immigrant labor, or illegal aliens. .
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Feb 28, 2019 21:05:13 GMT -5
We need to dump this league for football. The athletic department needs to seriously get on the phone and at least try to move out of this league. With 3 PA teams in it. Let's get into a conference where at least people can travel to watch the team play on the road. One nice thing about the PL is that the short conference schedule actually does allow for room to play 5-6 OOC games. This lets us rotate through local opponents like Harvard, Yale, Brown, Dartmouth and UNH. And occasionally the likes of Bryant and CCSU. The annual FBS game seems to stay local for foreseeable future between BC, UCONN, Syracuse and Army. Hopefully UMASS again soon as well. As far as getting out of this league in football, there is exactly ONE option and that’s the CAA. As far as “getting on the phone” that’s the only realistic pitch for us. Not necessarily a bad move but would be a different direction for the school for sure. Bill Holy Cross as the “Elon of the North”.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 28, 2019 21:16:00 GMT -5
Knew 2 different, unrelated, kids named Gioia growing up. Without the "Di." I really don't want to get familiar with the guy at GU. But thanks for the correction. But since Fr. Bourroghs knows him so well, maybe he can convey my message. [hopefully you caught the purposeful misspelling of the HC president's name. After all, it seems very few people know how to spell it. I know because it is like the 5 NYC ones ]
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Post by DFW HOYA on Mar 1, 2019 0:34:32 GMT -5
Well, since I'll bet many GU alums and some students haven't thought about this solution, I might write to Gioia and suggest that they simply drop men's basketball since they are losing so much money on it and they have no more slaves they can sell to bail them out financially. [As an aside, it still boggles my mind that Georgetown and the Jesuits there owned slaves, much less that they sold them. Fully understanding that was many years ago, even then they had to know that was immoral]. Georgetown College did not own slaves, but the Maryland Province of the Jesuits did. It's useful to know what you are saying before making broad assumptions like this. Georgetown was not on a plantation and the acreage of the college was not agricultural. The morality regarding slavery in 1837 was still in flux in Catholic circles. There were those that argued if slaves were owned by Catholics, they stood a better chance of being converted and ostensibly to get to heaven than working for Protestants. Others argued that slavery was around in Biblical days and it was more political than moral. These arguments quickly fell by the wayside as abolitionism grew in Catholic social teaching, notwithstanding the fact that the Maryland Province was in a slave state through 1864 despite not joining the Confederacy. (New Jersey had some slaves in its state until 1865, but that's a different story.) Either way, the Maryland Province wanted out of the plantation businesses they had maintained since the early 1700's and getting rid of slaves would help accomplish this. And what this has to do with the PL is exactly nothing.
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Post by sader1970 on Mar 1, 2019 5:34:12 GMT -5
Ease up on the reins buddy.
1. You obviously didn’t get the initial sarcasm as no one believes, including me, that Georgetown will be giving up basketball any time soon.
2. As for Georgetown and the slaves. If Georgetown is innocent, why are they making amends for descendants of those slaves? If just the Maryland Jesuits why doesn’t it just fall on the order rather than Georgetown. And, are you denying what has been reported that the proceeds of the sale of slaves went to Georgetown? So, GU got the benefit of the sale of the slaves.
That all said, I am sure that you have studied this in much greater detail than I.
Sorry if I hit a nerve.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 1, 2019 7:35:00 GMT -5
Some people seem to think that the GU roster is comprised of full pays. It is not. It is likely that GU rosters 40, 50, perhaps more than 50 equivalencies. A reason for GU not going the merit scollie route is Title IX. Given their M/F ratio, 60 merit scollies for football would probably mean adding 30 more scollies for the women's teams. That's easily $6 million more in additional cost, which is hard to stomach when you're paying an arm and a leg and a buttock cheek for men's hoops, and losing your shirt in doing so. I am a bit curious about how Georgetown operates and builds a competitive (non athletic scholarship) PL team in terms of financial aid and football. I agree it is not loaded with 'full pays'. I figure it is one of three ways:
1. The entire student body is subject to precisely the same financial aid scale and precisely the same financial aid decisions.*
2. Like the old Ivy model, all students are on the same financial aid scale but those that play football receive grants instead of any loans. (AKA 'Grants in Aid")
3. Football players are on a more generous financial aid scale than the student body at large or are actually eligible for certain scholarships that non-football players are ineligible for.
*Given the rather parsimonious financial aid practices at GU - including but not limited to their use of large loans in aid packages - I just don't see how #1 can be the answer at GU. Notwithstanding the school's excellent reputation and selectivity. I do know #1 is the method at HYP nowadays ----but they are far wealthier and are the opposite of parsimonious for the entire student body.
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Post by joe on Mar 1, 2019 10:17:59 GMT -5
Maybe the PL should add a few really bad schools so that we can pad our in-conference win record. Whole discussion is a bit silly.
If the PL does not want to get real with schollie limits and AI, HC needs either apply for membership to the CAA or, as TD and myself have suggested, take the lead and find 6 or 7 like-minded schools with which to form a new conference alliance. With the number of northeastern FCS schools wanting to play at a high level, this should be achievable. I'd like us to be playing Villanova, JMU, UNH, etc., along with UMass or UConn each year as a "winnable" FBS game, and BC every year as our traditional reach BCS game. The PL is not a high enough level FCS conference, and does not allow for recruiting to the level where we can compete with larger schools and FBS schools. Period. Don't handcuff our new coach any longer! Let him recruit and let them play the game.
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Post by HC92 on Mar 1, 2019 11:14:23 GMT -5
Having Georgetown as a football-only member is not in the top 10 problems the PL has. Maybe not the top 100.
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Post by joe on Mar 1, 2019 11:17:14 GMT -5
Having Georgetown as a football-only member is not in the top 10 problems the PL has. Maybe not the top 100. Agree.
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Post by JRGNYR on Mar 1, 2019 13:14:57 GMT -5
The minimum to keep the AQ for the FCS playoffs is 6, so if one of Georgetown or Fordham leaves, the AQ is still intact. But having 7 insulates the AQ in case one does leave. If both left, that would be a problem, and the league would have two years to find at least one school to come on board as an affiliate to keep the AQ. Chances are they could find a willing school, but the league wouldn't be dealing from a position of strength.
Forcing out one of those two would not be advisable. Schools already have to schedule 5 non-conference games, which isn't nearly as easy as many think.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 1, 2019 13:37:09 GMT -5
hcpride, I suspect GU follows the model that HC and the other PL schools followed pre-scollie.
HC in the years before re-introducing scollies rostered at least 45 scollie equivalents, and several other PL schools rostered even more, --Fordham was suspiciously close to 60+ scollie equivalents. The number of equivalents was calculated by subtracting operating expenses, a guesstimate for recruiting expenses and coaches compensation, and the residual was athletically-related fin aid.
In 2008-2009, football expenses: Fordham $4.8M Colgate $4.4M Lafayette $4.1M HC $3.6M GU $1.5 M
At $50,000 per equivalency, Fordham (compared to GU which reported $0 in fin aid) may have had 60 equivalencies.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 1, 2019 13:50:55 GMT -5
hcpride, I suspect GU follows the model that HC and the other PL schools followed pre-scollie. HC in the years before re-introducing scollies rostered at least 45 scollie equivalents, and several other PL schools rostered even more, --Fordham was suspiciously close to 60+ scollie equivalents. The number of equivalents was calculated by subtracting operating expenses, a guesstimate for recruiting expenses and coaches compensation, and the residual was athletically-related fin aid. In 2008-2009, football expenses: Fordham $4.8M Colgate $4.4M Lafayette $4.1M HC $3.6M GU $1.5 M At $50,000 per equivalency, Fordham (compared to GU which reported $0 in fin aid) may have had 60 equivalencies.
Gotcha. So I guess that would be option 3 of the options I presented in explaining GU's ability to field a competitive (by PL standards) team without athletic (merit) schollies:
1. The entire student body is subject to precisely the same financial aid scale and precisely the same financial aid decisions.
2. Like the old Ivy model, all students are on the same financial aid scale but those that play football receive grants instead of any loans. (AKA 'Grants in Aid")
3. Football players are on a more generous financial aid scale than the student body at large or are actually eligible for certain scholarships that non-football players are ineligible for.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Mar 1, 2019 14:02:29 GMT -5
Some good conversation here. Brief responses below.
1. "If Georgetown is innocent, why are they making amends for descendants of those slaves?" The Maryland Jesuits sold the slaves to get out of the plantation business and invest in outreach in Baltimore and Philadelphia which later became Loyola and St. Joseph's. Most of the money went back to the order but about 15% of the sum went to pay off a bank note Rev. Mulledy had co-signed on building an infirmary at Georgetown; hence, the imputed guilt in Washington, which is something academics always seem to gravitate to. (Fox might call it political correctness.) The remainder was tendered to the Archdiocese of Baltimore.
2. "I am a bit curious about how Georgetown operates and builds a competitive (non athletic scholarship) PL team in terms of financial aid and football.". It's mostly option 1 above-- namely, all students are on the same financial aid scale but for those that play football the work-study portion is bought out by the athletic department (from $4-6K/person). If the family contribution is high, the family still pays a significant price ($20-30K and above), while at Ivy schools the family contribution has been brought to zero in many cases. It's a corollary effect that Georgetown football has largely disappeared from recruiting in the Northeast because it can't compete among those families with higher household incomes. In 1996, there were 42 kids on the football roster from NY and NJ, just eight in 2018.
3. "HC needs either apply for membership to the CAA or, as TD and myself have suggested, take the lead and find 6 or 7 like-minded schools with which to form a new conference alliance." The PL is a great place for Lehigh and Lafayette, or for schools with no athletic ambition like American, but it has neutered Holy Cross in many sports, including football but especially basketball. HC has many choices--it can atrophy in the PL, step down to the MAAC, try to get people to reform the Yankee Conference, or go all-in on some sort of "Big East Lite" of schools like Fordham, Fairfield, St. Joe's, Duquesne, Detroit, etc. All of these choices, however, take leadership at the presidential and director level of the college and the financial commitments to see it through. The seven Big East schools that left Big East 1.0 gave up $7-10 million each in TV revenues and NCAA credits with the buy-in by the school presidents that the future returns to the schools would far surpass the short term hit to the budget. That was the right call, but an athletic director can't make that call. Would Rev. Boroughs make that kind of bold, strategic move, or is the John Brooks model of athletics in a form of stare decisis at the College, as the memories of better days continue to wane?
4."Having Georgetown as a football-only member is not in the top 10 problems the PL has. Maybe not the top 100." Agree.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 1, 2019 16:18:35 GMT -5
Some good conversation here. Brief responses below. 2. "I am a bit curious about how Georgetown operates and builds a competitive (non athletic scholarship) PL team in terms of financial aid and football.". It's mostly option 1 above-- namely, all students are on the same financial aid scale but for those that play football the work-study portion is bought out by the athletic department (from $4-6K/person). If the family contribution is high, the family still pays a significant price ($20-30K and above), while at Ivy schools the family contribution has been brought to zero in many cases. It's a corollary effect that Georgetown football has largely disappeared from recruiting in the Northeast because it can't compete among those families with higher household incomes. In 1996, there were 42 kids on the football roster from NY and NJ, just eight in 2018. How about the loan portion of the typical Georgetown University financial aid offer? I suspect the work study and the (much higher in many cases) loan portions are converted to grants. So I think we are talking option 2 (I originally forgot to add work-study) below: 1. The entire student body is subject to precisely the same financial aid scale and precisely the same financial aid decisions.* 2. Like the old Ivy model, all students are on the same financial aid scale but those that play football receive grants instead of any loans/work study. (AKA 'Grants in Aid") 3. Football players are on a more generous financial aid scale than the student body at large or are actually eligible for certain scholarships that non-football players are ineligible for. (Point well taken that at places like HYP financial aid is totally different (for several billion reasons) so Georgetown can be much more expensive for many families of footballers and non-athletes alike.)
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Post by sader1970 on Mar 1, 2019 16:45:46 GMT -5
Thank you for this cogent explanation and now I will give you some ammunition for return fire that you can use on me when you see fit. You may not have picked up on one of my many posts that my grandfather was a Jesuit from 1911 to 1919 (never took final vows due to health reasons) and then left the order. He taught at Loyola in Baltimore from 1915-1917. So, even though this slave sale took place well before he came on board, I suppose that I have some imputed guilt as well with the Maryland province/Loyola University connection. However, I just don't feel guilty enough to make any reparations payments. Hell, I won't even donate to Holy Cross anymore until the Crusader returns.* * this last comment is for my friend 8485 who can never get enough of my rantings on this subject and who will miss me after Mardi Gras when I go on hiatus.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 1, 2019 17:21:32 GMT -5
However, I just don't feel guilty enough to make any reparations payments. Hell, I won't even donate to Holy Cross anymore until the Crusader returns.* * this last comment is for my friend 8485 who can never get enough of my rantings on this subject and who will miss me after Mardi Gras when I go on hiatus. Hey - I engaged you in a conversation about it once in November just to needle you a bit and haven't said a word about it since, hoping it would stop. Oy vey! BTW - DFW ... "imputed guilt." I like it!
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Post by lehighowl on Mar 1, 2019 23:59:19 GMT -5
DFW,
I don't agree that the PL has neutered Holy Cross athletics anymore than it has anyone else in the league. Ultimately, each school controls their fate within the league's framework. Holy Cross started to "neuter" Crusader athletics sometime in the mid to late 1960's. Their basketball program and football programs started to experience a rather sharp decline nationally around that time. Holy Cross football re-emerged when it re-classified to 1-AA. Hoops was a solid regional product and nothing more. Similar to MAAC foe Fordham. By the time they entered the PL I don't think they had the same clout as St. Joe's or La Salle who had the L-Train, Overton and Legler around that time.
There was no way HC could continue at the 1-A based on the previous 15+ years at that level. The PL certainly did Crusader football no favors by forcing them to phase out scholarships. It also didn't help Colgate and Lehigh. Both of those programs had been nationally relevant in 1-AA before the PL. Lehigh went from being a force nationally under Whitehead and winning more than they lost to Delaware in the late 70's through the mid 80's to a middling "meh" until the late 90's. The one major thing that Lehigh and Colgate did that HC didn't do was re-invest in their programs when the PL accepted the auto-bid into the playoffs. Both programs elevated themselves to Holy Cross's level under Duffner and Carter (minus the '87 team) for several years following the league's decision to participate in the playoffs. It was also those two and Fordham that pushed for scholarships, not Holy Cross.
I agree the PL has a couple of dumb rules that are major hurdles; specifically the red shirt rule and roster limits. It would be nice if a few powerful coaches and/or AD's would speak up a bit more on those self-imposed restrictions. The PL has proven it can produce one team MOST years that is nationally viable. Unfortunately, top to bottom the league as been dreadful for over a decade. I'm hopeful the current trajectory of HC, Lehigh moving on from the unfortunate Coen situation, Colgate's steadiness under Hunt and Fordham's ability to field really good teams at times can finally transform the PL into a multi-bid conference.
I have full confidence that Colgate and Lehigh remain committed to having teams that can compete with the best in FCS. Gilmore's shortfalls at HC aside, it has been a very productive offseason in Bethlehem in the wake of a very tough 2018 campaign. I firmly believe Chesney will field successful teams before he departs. My question is will the administration allow him to build a program that's sustainable for the next guy.
This should be a very interesting season in football. I think Colgate, Holy Cross, Lehigh, Georgetown and Fordham all enter 2019 with a legit chance to win the league.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 2, 2019 0:06:44 GMT -5
Nice insights, lehighowl--please visit us regularly and give us your POV
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