|
Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Mar 11, 2019 20:14:48 GMT -5
Shame on me Rob!
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on Mar 11, 2019 21:20:09 GMT -5
What is the scoreboard plan- video screens at each end or something else?
Nothing is going in the center that's for sure.
|
|
|
Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 12, 2019 2:50:21 GMT -5
Pretty sure Sjoika has some pull out seating; I believe Gampel Pavilion at UConn does as well. I'd guess that many facilities in D-1 have them (outside of the semi-pro schools). So it's the ceiling height? At any rate, when full what does it matter? No right or wrong, but give me a shaking, quaking pit over a big, drafty barn arena any day.
|
|
|
Post by joe on Mar 12, 2019 5:12:39 GMT -5
As kids are on their phones 24/7 I believe the appearance of a venue has implications in the recruiting process. Of course revising HC’s venue would be but one step in revamping the program. My main issue is that with 97 million dollars in allotted money, there could have been a creative way to get the Hart looking a bit more prime time, especially when it’s clearly not a rocking pig. Pull out seating is fine, just hide it better. At least get the optics right for a video stream. Get a real concession stand and a better swag shop. Can’t do a Jumbotron? Ok then put in a video board somewhere. Figure it the Hell out. Get a band and a cheer squad that sticks around for all home games. When attendance is down this is when you’re needed most. C’mon, bend your knees a little and show you care. Reduced admission for Worcester residents was a great idea but how many will come back when you can’t even get a hot dog at half time?
When I stream games up on the TV, my kids have asked why I watch high school basketball at night. When I tell them it’s HC they ask me why no one is there. It’s an embarrassment. From the mouths of babes.
Or keep looking and acting mediocre. Either way.
It’s kind of like why you wear a tie to work. Act the part.
We’re the worst team in the worst league. Do something. Anything.
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 12, 2019 5:27:29 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 12, 2019 5:45:04 GMT -5
The space for more concessions and a bigger swag shop was consumed by the new locker room's and coaches offices for women's ice hockey. Previously, women's ice hockey had to use the swimming team lockers. Abandon women's ice hockey, and the hot dog concession would appear. And there are Title IX issues if one undertook a major renovation of the Hart and still had the women's ice hockey team dress in the swimming team's locker room. See HC softball.
HC has insisted that even if it were to expand seating at the ink, it wouldn't move the ice surface. If the ice surface is moved, one is then into building a new rink at a cost of $40-50 million if one were to meet the minimum seating specs of HE. And why would one build a new rink with less than 4,000 seats?
Anyway, no room for a rink that size at the top of the hill, so there's plenty of space for a future, grand concession concourse when the Hart rink is history. .
|
|
|
Post by joe on Mar 12, 2019 7:08:40 GMT -5
97 million dollars should have covered all these concerns. The Hart basketball venue could have been upgraded thoughtfully, without a major renovation, leaving seating capacity alone or even reducing it slightly. The concessions and swag areas could have been upgraded virtually within their existing footprint. You don’t need more space to make better hot dogs. You need better people and a better grille. With 97M to work with, we got a ground rule double which should have been a grand slam. The hockey rink is beyond my area of expertise but common sense dictates that if you’re moving to HE you really ought to do something to make it look more presentable for the women. For the men it would be unusable, unless we have DCU plans. Glad the kids get Ritz Carlton level locker rooms, though. That’s good I guess.
|
|
|
Post by crusader12 on Mar 12, 2019 7:11:00 GMT -5
$92 million for the Luth upgrade and the Hart renovation still results in a hs gym with bleacher seats and a scoreboard against the wall rather than at center court. (unlike the Bucknell facility with around the same seating capacity but with a college atmosphere due in large part to its seat back seating and a center court scoreboard.) All this for basketball, HC's marquee sport! What the heck were TPTB thinking? Reasons for this failure to provide a college level gym are always recited but in the end it is what it is - a high school gym. Certainly the Hart is not a help for recruiting and I do realize that other factors go into a recruit's choice of college. HC needs to renovate the renovation and fix the Hart ASAP! Agree +2 The basketball arena and hockey rink "updates" were laughable. Slap a coat of paint on and change the bleachers to purple and call it a day. Not to mention the 80 yard indoor turf....
|
|
|
Post by gks on Mar 12, 2019 7:13:31 GMT -5
What happened to Creedon and Co. and the concessions? Papa Gino's is terrible. Hart Center concessions in the past always felt like it was run by a high school booster club.
Food always tastes worse when the team stinks.
|
|
|
Post by bison137 on Mar 12, 2019 8:31:02 GMT -5
. Boston University men's soccer, first five numbered players, two are enrolled in the school of business, two in the school of general studies (I thought the PL didn't allow that at BU). Students in Boston U's School of General Studies are generally traditional liberal arts majors who are taught in a "team" concept for their first two years, which ends in a Capstone project. After that, they move into the normal College of Arts and Sciences. The PL doesn't make any attempt to tell schools how they should be structured.
|
|
|
Post by trimster on Mar 12, 2019 8:31:16 GMT -5
I believe the Hart Center gym was one of the first signs of where Fr. Brooks planned on taking HC athletics. As some have said here, David Perini was willing to build a larger gym/arena for a very reasonable cost and the answer to that inquiry was no thanks. If you planned on eliminating athletic scholarships, an Ivy League type facility was fine. The die was cast a long time ago and has been maintained over the years and is unlikely to change going forward. If you want to follow HC athletics, I think you have to accept the fact becoming a dominant force in the PL is the ceiling. All the talk about we could have been in the Big East is fruitless. It is what it is. I have been a fan, student/alum for 55 years and a majority of those years have seen the athletic program in the Patriot League. I have no anticipation of that changing. It's up to me if I want to continue following HC athletics.
|
|
|
Post by bringbackcaro on Mar 12, 2019 8:39:35 GMT -5
Hi, I was not pointing to the number of seats but to the 1) roll-up bleacher seats and the 2) scoreboard. Look at the Hart. 3) Do you think it has the look of a college facility - a venue for HC's marquee sport? Maybe, I'm a minority of one but IMHO it does not measure up. Glad to read your posts with much respect and in friendship. MM LoveHC 1) Cameron Indoor, Gallager-Iba, and The Palestra are among the many CBB arenas that have moveable bleachers. Anything wrong with any of these venues?
2) There could never be "jumbotron" hanging over the court at the Hart as the ceiling beams are too low to allow for it.
3) For a tiny school playing an invisible athletic league whose athletic glory has been long gone for decades - yes. When was the last time you were in the Hart?
1) Comparing the Hart Center to those building is comparing apples to tractor trailer trucks. 3) Using that logic, it's a total waste of money to center a $95M+ investment around a PRACTICE facility. Not a game facility, not a game facility, not a game facility. We talkin about $95M for a practice facility. We talkin about practice. Not the actual game. Practice. "A tinty school playing in an invisible athletic leage whose athletic glory has been long gone for decades" has no business having a $95M indoor practice football field.
|
|
|
Post by joe on Mar 12, 2019 8:46:22 GMT -5
Yes. You’d think that a school that would put 97M into offices and practice space would mosly likely have solid game day facilities already locked down. The Hart isn’t even shabby sheek like the Palestra is or the Auditorium was. As sterile as true DCU is, at least it’s something. At least it’s an arena.
|
|
|
Post by lou on Mar 12, 2019 8:47:26 GMT -5
One person's logic is another person's soup. Look, we're taking in the whole picture of the Hart and not the seating capacity which is fine for the size of our student body. Sure the West Point basketball facility has permanent bench seats (seats about 5,000) but the place overall has the look and feel of a college arena. The Hart with its pullout bleacher seats, tight spaces behind the end lines, low ceiling and scoreboard on the wall, IMHO, just doesn't cut it as a college level arena. Certainly its look does not help in recruitment. Simply, it has the look and feel of a hs gym. Now we can rationalize about empty seats, or proclaim, "fill the seats and no one will notice" but the fact remains, empty or full the gym does not look like and is not a college arena. Ask yourself: Is the Hart truly a college level facility? Maybe, all the criticisms really don't matter because if the team loses we are miserable and if the team wins we are elated even if the team plays in a hs bandbox gym. And, obviously some prefer the look and feel of a bandbox. LoveHC Tough to compare West Point/Christl to anywhere else...but, no video screens, their seating does retract, not sure why that matters really, and for other than Navy they close off most of the seating. Their swag shop is fine but no better than ours. Food choices better
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Mar 12, 2019 8:47:50 GMT -5
Pretty sure Sjoika has some pull out seating; I believe Gampel Pavilion at UConn does as well. I'd guess that many facilities in D-1 have them (outside of the semi-pro schools). So it's the ceiling height? At any rate, when full what does it matter? No right or wrong, but give me a shaking, quaking pit over a big, drafty barn arena any day. It is less the height than the ability of the structure to support the scoreboard. There was a discussion on this point some months back (perhaps last year). To replace the roof and supports would have been far too expensive.
|
|
|
Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Mar 12, 2019 9:17:19 GMT -5
bbc. I agree. Palestra & Cameron seat about 9,000 +/-, Gallagher - Iba seats in excess of 10,000 and none should be cited as points of comparison to HC. Bucknell another small LAC and a PL rival plays in a facility with a relatively small seating capacity of 4,000 similar to the Hart but with permanent seats at least some of which are arena style and a center court scoreboard in a small but spacious setting . The Bucknell arena serves as a good measure of comparison to the Hart. Obviously, there truly is no comparison between the two. Why didn't HC build something similar to Bucknell or any other similar small college arena? Was it cost? Was it impractical to build an arena with more space around the court, a higher roof with a center court scoreboard and permanent arena seats? Did TPTB believe that the Hart as presently constructed serves its purpose by providing a simple venue for HC basketball? Or, was it all of these things? So, HC has a hs gym. It says a lot about the thinking of TPTB, doesn't it? So be it. LoveHC In multiple posts you bitched that having collapsible bleachers means the Hart is a two-bit arena. I pointed out three of many arenas in CBB that have the same, and asked you if since these arenas have these, does that make these places a "HS gym" as well? Only comparo I was using was the bleacher seats, but you and another poster can continue to try to spin it any way you'd like.
|
|
|
Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 12, 2019 9:20:58 GMT -5
One person's logic is another person's soup. Look, we're taking in the whole picture of the Hart and not the seating capacity which is fine for the size of our student body. Sure the West Point basketball facility has permanent bench seats (seats about 5,000) but the place overall has the look and feel of a college arena. The Hart with its pullout bleacher seats, tight spaces behind the end lines, low ceiling and scoreboard on the wall, IMHO, just doesn't cut it as a college level arena. Certainly its look does not help in recruitment. Simply, it has the look and feel of a hs gym. Now we can rationalize about empty seats, or proclaim, "fill the seats and no one will notice" but the fact remains, empty or full the gym does not look like and is not a college arena. Ask yourself: Is the Hart truly a college level facility? Maybe, all the criticisms really don't matter because if the team loses we are miserable and if the team wins we are elated even if the team plays in a hs bandbox gym. And, obviously some prefer the look and feel of a bandbox. LoveHC I mostly agree with you, but the facilities and gym are pretty far down the list of current issues with the basketball program. I could name 25 gyms that are "high school" level, but the teams that play there are very, very good. Vermont, St. Mary's, Furman, San Francisco, Harvard, and many others are doing just fine. Hell, Matt Langel has attracted a bunch of solid transfers to COLGATE with that rinky dink gym. A shiny arena is nice to have, but it's not a pre-req.
|
|
|
Post by rickii on Mar 12, 2019 9:22:03 GMT -5
HC has determined that athletes who played a varsity sport are more successful after graduating than students who did not play a varsity sport. HC very likely can break that down by sport (one needs to cumulate the parts to produce a sum). Given that, why would HC decrease the number of sports or athletes playing a sport? I am willing to wager that some of the NESCAC schools which have higher participation rates than HC have come to a similar finding. Williams 737 unduplicated varsity athletes out of 2033 enrolled. Bowdoin 653 of 1811. Would NESCAC schools run so many sports if athletes were less successful than their non-athlete counterparts? IMO, HC is impeded by being liberal arts. The Lehigh women's basketball roster has seven players who have majors not offered by HC. Boston University men's soccer, first five numbered players, two are enrolled in the school of business, two in the school of general studies (I thought the PL didn't allow that at BU). Of the five, one is from Belgium, another from Sierra Leone, and another from Croatia. As to whether HC is too Catholic conservative is the subject of another thread. HC is about 75? percent Catholic, Georgetown.about 50 percent. Fordham is less than 50 percent* . And to be fair, Notre Dame is more Catholic than HC. * www.catholicworldreport.com/2017/01/07/new-history-describes-founding-rise-and-secularization-of-fordham-university/ HC being Catholic conservative ? That's news to me.
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on Mar 12, 2019 10:04:53 GMT -5
97 million dollars should have covered all these concerns. The Hart basketball venue could have been upgraded thoughtfully, without a major renovation, leaving seating capacity alone or even reducing it slightly. The concessions and swag areas could have been upgraded virtually within their existing footprint. You don’t need more space to make better hot dogs. You need better people and a better grille. With 97M to work with, we got a ground rule double which should have been a grand slam. The hockey rink is beyond my area of expertise but common sense dictates that if you’re moving to HE you really ought to do something to make it look more presentable for the women. For the men it would be unusable, unless we have DCU plans. Glad the kids get Ritz Carlton level locker rooms, though. That’s good I guess. This I have to agree with, most of the rest of the complaints I don't. The old blues should be chairs. See no reason why that wasn't done. The bottom bleachers, at least the sideline ones, should be like The Roof, retractable chairs. Concessions? Just do a better job with the area you have. Or put a couple more things in the lobbies...there are other places in the footprint for something. I'm not a big fan of scoreboards above the middle of the court in a place like The Hart, but there's enough places to put a couple video boards. Seems like some of our competition has them. I've also pointed out that Villanova spent over 60 million sprucing up their Pavilion. A brand new arena the size of their place would have cost 4 to 5 times that much, not in the budget.
|
|
|
Post by joe on Mar 12, 2019 10:13:19 GMT -5
Whatever the cause, the place looks small time. Maybe some gyms pull off bleachers better than we do. Again, it’s an eyeball test. And to think HC tried to brand the Hart as being renovated a couple of year ago is insulting to the intelligence of those of us who have practiced in that gym and attended games. They painted the walls and chairs, stained the floor, and put in some dumb MA graphic as a subtle reminder to many that most of the viewing public needs a visual cue to even know where the college is located.
Sure there are some decent teams with equally lousy gyms. But we aren’t one of them. We need to look at everything that can be fixed and fix all of it.
How is this even debatable? The “it’s fine” mentality is the very reason why HC sucks at every sport across the board.
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 12, 2019 10:48:31 GMT -5
Why didn't HC build something similar to Bucknell or any other similar small college arena? Was it cost? Was it impractical to build an arena with more space around the court, a higher roof with a center court scoreboard and permanent arena seats? Did TPTB believe that the Hart as presently constructed serves its purpose by providing a simple venue for HC basketball? Or, was it all of these things? So, HC has a hs gym. It says a lot about the thinking of TPTB, doesn't it? So be it. By the way, I find this discussion with its varying points of view very interesting. Thank you. LoveHC mm67, I don't believe you were posting on the old board when the matter of expanding and renovating Hart was discussed ad nauseum. Basically, the footprint of the Hart court is such that the renovation/expansion model would have been St. Joe's. After For before, www.sjuhawks.com/PhotoAlbum.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=31200&PALBID=959750^^^ Go to the last photo in the photostream, the one with the guy in a wheelchair, for the arena before renovation. St. Joe's blew out two walls, raised the roof, added 1100 seats (most are apparently at the end courts) The cost ten years ago was $25 million. But the real bottom line is that the Luth's apparently weren't interested in paying $25 million to renovate/expand the Hart court, and neither was anyone else. As Fr McF would lament at the time, no one was willing to pay the $10-12 million to expand the rink. And besides, in the discussions of yesteryear, a renovated Hart court was still too small. It would not have had the seating capacity required for on-campus venue for Big East membership. HC would be spending $25+ million for a court for the women's team, while the men played at DCU.
|
|
|
Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 12, 2019 10:52:04 GMT -5
I have sat through multiple games at Stabler "Arena", and I have found it to be one of the worst places to watch a basketball game (although it has a nice dance floor to celebrate PL championships). Christl Arena, not much better. I'm not quite understanding the sentiment that having the Hart seats close to the court is a bad thing.
I think back to the last time HC beat BC, in that game at the DCU Center where the students were great. Would have been 10 times better if it was at the Hart, as far as I'm concerned.
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Mar 12, 2019 11:44:44 GMT -5
The space for more concessions and a bigger swag shop was consumed by the new locker room's and coaches offices for women's ice hockey. Previously, women's ice hockey had to use the swimming team lockers. Abandon women's ice hockey, and the hot dog concession would appear. And there are Title IX issues if one undertook a major renovation of the Hart and still had the women's ice hockey team dress in the swimming team's locker room. See HC softball. HC has insisted that even if it were to expand seating at the ink, it wouldn't move the ice surface. If the ice surface is moved, one is then into building a new rink at a cost of $40-50 million if one were to meet the minimum seating specs of HE. And why would one build a new rink with less than 4,000 seats? Anyway, no room for a rink that size at the top of the hill, so there's plenty of space for a future, grand concession concourse when the Hart rink is history. . I know I'm in the minority, but I don't have a problem with Hart. A fancy jumbotron in the middle does basically nothing for me. I'm watching the event - not the jumbotron and I don't need to jump around to get on the thing during timeouts. Not a huge deal to me, but the concessions thing is a total screw-up and I'm not talking making them bigger and taking away locker space. It's just execution that stinks. Not having food ready has nothing to do with space - just poor planning, The simple answer 1) Have people who know what they're doing running the booth. There are enough games that there should be reasonable data of what they go through based on anticipated crowds. Plan so there's enough food and it's available when people want it. If you have three times as many people in line as you have hot dogs cooking, throw some on instead of waiting until you're completely out before you start cooking more. If Papa Gino's is running the place, they're restaurant people and should know how to handle it 2) At least for big games go back to two concession stands. Maybe even bring back the guy with the cart out back where the curtain is 3) Re-arrange the gate area (which is nothing since it consists of movable ropes) so there's less comfy room outside the gate. Slide student check-in over near the sitting area to the left and put the Swag where the students check in. Still visible for all and you don[t really need the counter since most of the stuff is out in the hall on racks anyway. The upstairs lobby is a better space, but less traffic probably makes it less desirable than something downstairs in plain view
|
|
|
Post by hc87 on Mar 12, 2019 12:11:03 GMT -5
The Hart is actually probably too big as it is for 95% of the basketball games played there now or in the future.
|
|
|
Post by crusader12 on Mar 12, 2019 12:53:00 GMT -5
Whatever the cause, the place looks small time. Maybe some gyms pull off bleachers better than we do. Again, it’s an eyeball test. And to think HC tried to brand the Hart as being renovated a couple of year ago is insulting to the intelligence of those of us who have practiced in that gym and attended games. They painted the walls and chairs, stained the floor, and put in some dumb MA graphic as a subtle reminder to many that most of the viewing public needs a visual cue to even know where the college is located. Sure there are some decent teams with equally lousy gyms. But we aren’t one of them. We need to look at everything that can be fixed and fix all of it. How is this even debatable? The “it’s fine” mentality is the very reason why HC sucks at every sport across the board. And if "it's fine" with HC I suggest we all put our wallets away. Enough is enough.
|
|