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Post by hchoops on Mar 19, 2019 11:54:11 GMT -5
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Post by rickii on Mar 19, 2019 12:03:36 GMT -5
Paging Mr. deGrom....paging Mr. deGrom....you have a telephone call.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Mar 19, 2019 12:06:13 GMT -5
It's too bad half of his games + start after 10PM on the east coast. I may have seen him play outside of highlights on TV a handful of times against the Yankees and that's it.
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Post by HC92 on Mar 19, 2019 16:15:55 GMT -5
He can buy a rockin’ TV on which to watch the playoffs with that kind of cake!
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 19, 2019 16:18:11 GMT -5
He’s an extraordinary talent on track to go down in history as one of the 10-20 greatest players in history in my opinion.
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Post by hchoops on Mar 19, 2019 16:20:32 GMT -5
He’s an extraordinary talent on track to go down in history as one of the 10-20 greatest players in history in my opinion. More likely top 5 if he continues to produce as he has been
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Post by bison137 on Mar 19, 2019 18:47:35 GMT -5
He’s an extraordinary talent on track to go down in history as one of the 10-20 greatest players in history in my opinion. I think you underrate him. He is on track to be in the top five, if adjusted for the era's lack of offense, if he can stay healthy.
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Post by thecrossisback on Mar 19, 2019 20:48:54 GMT -5
He’s an extraordinary talent on track to go down in history as one of the 10-20 greatest players in history in my opinion. I think you underrate him. He is on track to be in the top five, if adjusted for the era's lack of offense, if he can stay healthy. With no postseason success there is no way he will be top five or even top 10.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 19, 2019 20:52:56 GMT -5
How much post season success did Ted Williams have?
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Post by hchoops on Mar 19, 2019 21:45:06 GMT -5
I think you underrate him. He is on track to be in the top five, if adjusted for the era's lack of offense, if he can stay healthy. With no postseason success there is no way he will be top five or even top 10. 12 years is a long time
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Post by hchoops on Mar 19, 2019 21:47:38 GMT -5
I think you underrate him. He is on track to be in the top five, if adjusted for the era's lack of offense, if he can stay healthy. With no postseason success there is no way he will be top five or even top 10. Ty Cobb played in 17 post season games with 65 at bats batting average—.262 ops—.668 0 World Series titles Hank Aaron played in 17 post season games Very good numbers one World Series title Willie Mays —25 games. Ops —.660 1 WS title looks as if Ruth, Gehrig and DiMaggio may be three of the only ones to prove your statement
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 19, 2019 22:37:12 GMT -5
Then there's that Mantle guy with his 18 World Series home runs.
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Post by hchoops on Mar 19, 2019 22:42:53 GMT -5
Then there's that Mantle guy with his 18 World Series home runs. Doubt he is many top 5s, maybe not top 10s
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Post by WorcesterGray on Mar 20, 2019 7:15:47 GMT -5
Here's the all-time WAR leaders - not the only way to (somewhat) objectively rank "greatness," but a good starting point for discussion. Trout currently is 144th on the list.
And Bill James' top 100, which includes consideration of Negro League players.
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Post by bison137 on Mar 20, 2019 7:23:15 GMT -5
Here's the all-time WAR leaders - not the only way to (somewhat) objectively rank "greatness," but a good starting point for discussion. Trout currently is 144th on the list.
And Bill James' top 100, which includes consideration of Negro League players. This article on MLB.com, written near the end of the 2018 season, said: "As of Sept. 14, no player has accrued more WAR through their age-26 seasons than Trout. He's tied with Ty Cobb (63.4) and has surpassed Mickey Mantle (61.4)." www.mlb.com/cut4/mike-trout-is-already-an-all-time-great-at-age-26-c276813534
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 20, 2019 7:29:53 GMT -5
Bill James is both a great, ground-breaking analyst and a terrific writer. I wish he'd come out with an update of his Historical Baseball Abstract--forget the data if not interested, his stories of the players are so entertaining.
WAR is a great metric--then you have to decide whether to use total career or 7 year, or 10 year. Of course, if you use career (such as is on the link above) Trout is low in that he's still likely in the first half of his career.
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Post by alum on Mar 20, 2019 8:41:55 GMT -5
I heard somebody from The Athletic on NPR making the case that the best comparison for Trout is Willie Mays. Again, that's pretty good company and with some merit, too. I can see him getting to 660 home runs. Trout stole 49 bases in his second season and has 189 for his career. I suspect that the Angels don't want to risk letting him steal bases so he will probably only get 20 or so per season going forward. Here is an article from last season talking about how Trout has improved areas of his game that needed work. www.mlb.com/news/mike-trout-has-improved-his-defense-in-center-c278810936I can see him being a top 5 all time player when it is all done. Of course, I'll be pushing 70 by then and certainly won't be able to stay up late to watch West Coast games on my icoolestnewthing device.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 20, 2019 9:03:08 GMT -5
One advantage Trout has over the great Willie Mays is in the OBP category: Trout draws a lot of walks (batting eye, selectivity, or pitchers pitching around him) and that helps take him past Mays to the Mantle category.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Mar 20, 2019 9:16:24 GMT -5
Here's the all-time WAR leaders - not the only way to (somewhat) objectively rank "greatness," but a good starting point for discussion. Trout currently is 144th on the list.
And Bill James' top 100, which includes consideration of Negro League players. This article on MLB.com, written near the end of the 2018 season, said: "As of Sept. 14, no player has accrued more WAR through their age-26 seasons than Trout. He's tied with Ty Cobb (63.4) and has surpassed Mickey Mantle (61.4)." www.mlb.com/cut4/mike-trout-is-already-an-all-time-great-at-age-26-c276813534Mantle's case is a really good example of why talking about Trout as one of the top five or ten all-time is such a dubious and perilous exercise. Stuff happens.
And health issues aside, many (if not most) players have significant declines as they age. At age 27, Trout will be at his peak. Will he age as well as, say, Hank Aaron - who accumulated more (~70) WAR from age 30 on than Trout has so far? Doubtful, imho.
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Post by bison137 on Mar 20, 2019 10:07:15 GMT -5
Mantle's case is a really good example of why talking about Trout as one of the top five or ten all-time is such a dubious and perilous exercise. Stuff happens.
No idea what will happen in the future, but there are two big differences between Trout and Mantle: (1) Mantle suffered a serious knee injury, including a torn ACL,at the end of his first season.. During his career, there was no surgical fix available, so it dramatically affected the rest of his career. In most cases today, a torn ACL for a baseball player is not nearly as serious as it was then. (2) Mantle had a serious drinking problem and did little to keep himself in shape. Trout is the opposite.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Mar 20, 2019 10:15:43 GMT -5
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 20, 2019 10:47:37 GMT -5
No idea what will happen in the future, but there are two big differences between Trout and Mantle: (1) Mantle suffered a serious knee injury, including a torn ACL,at the end of his first season.. During his career, there was no surgical fix available, so it dramatically affected the rest of his career. In most cases today, a torn ACL for a baseball player is not nearly as serious as it was then. (2) Mantle had a serious drinking problem and did little to keep himself in shape. Trout is the opposite. A quote attributed to Mantle: "If I had known how long I was going to live I'd have taken better care of myself."
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Post by WorcesterGray on Mar 20, 2019 11:04:20 GMT -5
That, by age 26, Mantle was able to do on one knee what Trout has done on two suggests how daunting the climb to elite status could be.
As for drinking - nobody drank (and ate) to excess like the Babe. And he was the best ever.
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Post by thecrossisback on Mar 20, 2019 11:29:31 GMT -5
War is the dumbest stat of all time Form 2009-2012 Ben Zobrist led all position players in WAR over the three years. Secondly did Trout ever bat 406 like Ted Williams did? Third did Trout ever bat over 400 twice like Cobb did? Trout struck out 124 times last year. He is two strike outs away from 1,000 He is very good, but he is not top five. Leaving pitchers and steroid guys off in no order Ruth, Aaron, Mays DiMaggio Gherig Mantle Williams Clemente Robinson Speaker Wagner Hornsby Musial
At his position Center Field in no order Mantle Mays Cobb Griffey Jr DiMaggio
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Post by hchoops on Mar 20, 2019 11:58:06 GMT -5
All possible, but you previously dismissed Trout since you said he would not have post season possibilities, which is true thus far, but a question for the future. He may not currently rank on your subjective list YET, but he has some/many years to get there. The more telling stats compare his years thus far to the greats, and he is very favorable in many stats.
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