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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jul 25, 2019 22:43:20 GMT -5
Sure, here is the distinction. Power 5 always wins at the expense of all the small schools. For ever and ever. This happened before the transferring became at the levels it is now and it will only continue. You seem to suggest tightening transfer rules will somehow restore balance to the D1 landscape between Power 5 and non-Power 5 schools. It will not. It was never balanced to begin with. There is no scenario in which the Power 5 does not come out on top.
At least with liberal transfer rules we can allow kids who are late bloomers to play at the best level of competition, and hopefully propel them to a professional level. It is very possible Matt Mooney wouldn't have played in the NBA Summer League and a chance at a NBA contract if there were a more restrictive transfer policy. I'm sure you mean "no foreseeable scenario", of course, but here's one to contemplate: for every two players that do not graduate in 5 years the school loses one scholarship for the next, say, two years. That would encourage student-athletes to adhere to the first half of that hyphenated word. That would definitely work against the Power 5. Of course we know this will never come to be, but it is a scenario in which the Power % does not come out on top.
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Post by dietpepsi on Jul 25, 2019 22:51:54 GMT -5
That's an interesting thought.
I would have to think that since all schools would presumably be operating under the same rules, the overwhelming resources available to the Power 5 would lead them to dominate as they always do. But you're right it, may add some semblance of parity, would be interesting to see.
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Post by bison137 on Jul 25, 2019 23:15:33 GMT -5
That's an interesting thought. I would have to think that since all schools would presumably be operating under the same rules, the overwhelming resources available to the Power 5 would lead them to dominate as they always do. Not necessarily. The graduation rates, for example, of Patriot League student-athletes are FAR better than that of P5 conference schools. A graduation rule such as proposed by K75 would have a significant negative effect on HBCU's however.
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Post by bison137 on Jul 25, 2019 23:20:59 GMT -5
. You seem to suggest tightening transfer rules will somehow restore balance to the D1 landscape between Power 5 and non-Power 5 schools. It will not. It was never balanced to begin with. There is no scenario in which the Power 5 does not come out on top. At least with liberal transfer rules we can allow kids who are late bloomers to play at the best level of competition, and hopefully propel them to a professional level. It is very possible Matt Mooney wouldn't have played in the NBA Summer League and a chance at a NBA contract if there were a more restrictive transfer policy. 1. I don't think anyone thinks transfer rules will create balance between midmajors and P6 conference teams. However keeping rules in place to make it somewhat harder to transfer will narrow the gap a bit. 2. Many players from midmajors find spots in the NBA Summer League. Players don't need to transfer to big schools to have a chance at that. The NBA will find anyone with talent. Bucknell has had four players go directly to the Summer League in the past six years, and many midmajor schools are represented every year.
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Post by dietpepsi on Jul 25, 2019 23:24:53 GMT -5
That's an interesting thought. I would have to think that since all schools would presumably be operating under the same rules, the overwhelming resources available to the Power 5 would lead them to dominate as they always do. Not necessarily. The graduation rates, for example, of Patriot League student-athletes are FAR better than that of P5 conference schools. A graduation rule such as proposed by K75 would have a significant negative effect on HBCU's however. Given the current state of things I agree. This would severely hurt P5 schools relative to everyone else. However I'd only think it'd be for a year or two. I would assume P5 schools would change their strategy, given how severe the penalty KY supposed would be, and recruit athletes more similar to the PL profile. PL or similar schools would then inevitably lose the recruiting battles with P5 schools for the same set of athletes, and then we're right back where we started.
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Post by dietpepsi on Jul 25, 2019 23:35:49 GMT -5
. You seem to suggest tightening transfer rules will somehow restore balance to the D1 landscape between Power 5 and non-Power 5 schools. It will not. It was never balanced to begin with. There is no scenario in which the Power 5 does not come out on top. At least with liberal transfer rules we can allow kids who are late bloomers to play at the best level of competition, and hopefully propel them to a professional level. It is very possible Matt Mooney wouldn't have played in the NBA Summer League and a chance at a NBA contract if there were a more restrictive transfer policy. 1. I don't think anyone thinks transfer rules will create balance between midmajors and P6 conference teams. However keeping rules in place to make it somewhat harder to transfer will narrow the gap a bit. 2. Many players from midmajors find spots in the NBA Summer League. Players don't need to transfer to big schools to have a chance at that. The NBA will find anyone with talent. Bucknell has had four players go directly to the Summer League in the past six years, and many midmajor schools are represented every year. 1. I understand. No rebuttal from me, I've made my view on that pretty clear and do not intend to bore anyone else. 2. This is a compelling point. You certainly get to see kids come from all sorts of programs get a chance. I worry there is a little confirmation bias in this though. We have zero idea about how many kids had what it takes to play at the professional level from mid-major programs but didn't get the opportunity due to lack of development/exposure/etc. That's why I encourage a lax transfer policy. If a kid thinks he/she has what it takes (and another coach believes in them), let them control their own destiny and play the best competition. It is hard for me to think that kids from P5 do not have a serious leg up when it comes to professional recruitment as far as exposure is concerned.
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Post by bison137 on Jul 26, 2019 10:19:44 GMT -5
1. I understand. No rebuttal from me, I've made my view on that pretty clear and do not intend to bore anyone else. 2. This is a compelling point. You certainly get to see kids come from all sorts of programs get a chance. I worry there is a little confirmation bias in this though. We have zero idea about how many kids had what it takes to play at the professional level from mid-major programs but didn't get the opportunity due to lack of development/exposure/etc. That's why I encourage a lax transfer policy. If a kid thinks he/she has what it takes (and another coach believes in them), let them control their own destiny and play the best competition. It is hard for me to think that kids from P5 do not have a serious leg up when it comes to professional recruitment as far as exposure is concerned. I think that was probably true 20 years ago. But NBA teams now have a huge number of scouts and they have the benefit of the NBA combine, the Portsmouth and Orlando pre-draft camps, etc. They also have enough personnel to work out mid-major players multiple times and to do extensive scouting. Bucknell, for example, is a midmajor which is not easy to get to. Yet there have been many NBA scouts at their home games over the years, including at least one General Manager. I seriously doubt they miss out on many players. In fact, their scouting has become so good that they even find players sitting on the bench in Europe who have potential and get drafted.
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Post by dietpepsi on Jul 26, 2019 11:00:25 GMT -5
1. I understand. No rebuttal from me, I've made my view on that pretty clear and do not intend to bore anyone else. 2. This is a compelling point. You certainly get to see kids come from all sorts of programs get a chance. I worry there is a little confirmation bias in this though. We have zero idea about how many kids had what it takes to play at the professional level from mid-major programs but didn't get the opportunity due to lack of development/exposure/etc. That's why I encourage a lax transfer policy. If a kid thinks he/she has what it takes (and another coach believes in them), let them control their own destiny and play the best competition. It is hard for me to think that kids from P5 do not have a serious leg up when it comes to professional recruitment as far as exposure is concerned. I think that was probably true 20 years ago. But NBA teams now have a huge number of scouts and they have the benefit of the NBA combine, the Portsmouth and Orlando pre-draft camps, etc. They also have enough personnel to work out mid-major players multiple times and to do extensive scouting. Bucknell, for example, is a midmajor which is not easy to get to. Yet there have been many NBA scouts at their home games over the years, including at least one General Manager. I seriously doubt they miss out on many players. In fact, their scouting has become so good that they even find players sitting on the bench in Europe who have potential and get drafted. Certainly possible, but that only addresses one part of the issue at hand (exposure). The resources available to Power 5 schools in the form of skill and athletic development far outweigh those of almost any mid major. It may be easier to find the talent than ever before, but building your game to a level that is worthy of scout coming to watch is easier at a P5 school than mid and low majors. The resources and quality of coaching dedicated to an athletes development at a P5 FAR outweighs those available at the lower tiers. We shouldn't insist a player stick around a low level program if he/she does not feel they are developing at the proper rate.
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Post by rgs318 on Jul 26, 2019 11:46:54 GMT -5
If they are not developing at the "proper" rate, it my not be a problem with the program but lie with the player himself.
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Post by hchoops on Jul 26, 2019 12:31:51 GMT -5
Diet I believe you overstate the value of the Power 5. Many of those schools have significant numbers of one and dones, which star- centered play prevents team cohesion that the transfer would get at his original school. There are many very good coaches on the non power 5 schools. In fact it could be argued that with coaches like Calipari who admittedly say his first job is to prepare his players for the pros, even at the expense of winning, that the non power 5 coach does not have that priority.and thus can be a more effective a teacher for all players. Another point it that this disease has seeped down to many high schools, where it continues to get worse each year. These players then believe that when they reach college, they can and will make similar decisions. Do you think this is also a good practice for high schools ?
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Post by Tom on Jul 26, 2019 14:00:43 GMT -5
. Another point it that this disease has seeped down to many high schools, where it continues to get worse each year. These players then believe that when they reach college, they can and will make similar decisions. Do you think this is also a good practice for high schools ? Are you suggesting that a local kid who went to places like St Peter-Marian, Cushing, and Brewster, might sign a LOI to UConn but go to PC and then transfer to BC? Clowning aside, if the realistic goal is to play basketball professionally, do what you have to do. For the other 98 percent for whom pro ball is a pipe dream, I hope jumping around is about what is best long term for the kid and that basically boils down to academics
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Post by hchoops on Jul 26, 2019 14:09:27 GMT -5
I know of no instance where academics was a reason that ball players transfer. Most have this delusion that it is their eventual ticket to the NBA. The numbers tell the actual truth.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jul 26, 2019 14:25:53 GMT -5
I have to think that two key factors (among many) are (1) playing time--seems obvious, and (2) boyhood dreams, as in "I always dreamed about playing for my State U". I'll also suggest that the grad school opportunity has been recognized by more players
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Post by bison137 on Jul 26, 2019 14:58:49 GMT -5
I know of no instance where academics was a reason that ball players transfer. Most have this delusion that it is their eventual ticket to the NBA. The numbers tell the actual truth. Agree on undergraduate transfers. But I think many of the grad transfers are for academic reasons. A free master's degree is a big attraction, especially if it's in a subject the player is interested in.
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Post by HC92 on Jul 26, 2019 15:17:19 GMT -5
I’ll bet consistently successful mid-Majors worry less about losing players to transfer than others. Let’s try that route and see how we do with transfers. I suspect we’ll come out to the good on the transfer +/- calculation if we start winning a lot.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 26, 2019 18:54:01 GMT -5
Winning makes big problems small and small problems go away.
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Post by bison137 on Jul 26, 2019 22:37:20 GMT -5
I’ll bet consistently successful mid-Majors worry less about losing players to transfer than others. Let’s try that route and see how we do with transfers. There is some truth to this - but only some. Over the past decade, Lehigh has been the second best program in the Patriot League - 40 games over .500 in league play. Yet they have lost many good players - players who were seeing serious playing time or who would have if they had stayed. The list includes: • Pat Andree • Caleb Bennett • Joe Foley • Brandon Alston • Matt Holba • Tyler Jenkins • Miles Simelton • Shane Whitfield And Boston U has been the PL's third best program since they joined the league - 20 games over .500 in six years - yet they have lost a number of good players over the past five years: • Tyler Scanlan • Jordan Guest • Destin Barnes • Cheddi Mosely • Maurice Watson • Malik Thomas The one difference between Boston U and Lehigh is that Boston has lost some of their players due to disciplinary issues. Lehigh has lost them simply because they wanted to be somewhere else.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jul 26, 2019 22:57:05 GMT -5
They got tired of the brown uniforms---so drab
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Transfers
Jul 27, 2019 7:06:43 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by longsuffering on Jul 27, 2019 7:06:43 GMT -5
I’ll bet consistently successful mid-Majors worry less about losing players to transfer than others. Let’s try that route and see how we do with transfers. There is some truth to this - but only some. Over the past decade, Lehigh has been the second best program in the Patriot League - 40 games over .500 in league play. Yet they have lost many good players - players who were seeing serious playing time or who would have if they had stayed. The list includes: • Pat Andree • Caleb Bennett • Joe Foley • Brandon Alston • Matt Holba • Tyler Jenkins • Miles Simelton • Shane Whitfield And Boston U has been the PL's third best program since they joined the league - 20 games over .500 in six years - yet they have lost a number of good players over the past five years: • Tyler Scanlan • Jordan Guest • Destin Barnes • Cheddi Mosely • Maurice Watson • Malik Thomas The one difference between Boston U and Lehigh is that Boston has lost some of their players due to disciplinary issues. Lehigh has lost them simply because they wanted to be somewhere else. These fourteen guys probably have breakfast together at the NBA all star game each year.☺️
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jul 27, 2019 8:30:54 GMT -5
There is some truth to this - but only some. Over the past decade, Lehigh has been the second best program in the Patriot League - 40 games over .500 in league play. Yet they have lost many good players - players who were seeing serious playing time or who would have if they had stayed. The list includes: • Pat Andree • Caleb Bennett • Joe Foley • Brandon Alston • Matt Holba • Tyler Jenkins • Miles Simelton • Shane Whitfield And Boston U has been the PL's third best program since they joined the league - 20 games over .500 in six years - yet they have lost a number of good players over the past five years: • Tyler Scanlan • Jordan Guest • Destin Barnes • Cheddi Mosely • Maurice Watson • Malik Thomas The one difference between Boston U and Lehigh is that Boston has lost some of their players due to disciplinary issues. Lehigh has lost them simply because they wanted to be somewhere else. These fourteen guys probably have breakfast together at the NBA all star game each year.☺️ ...but only after they finish serving the paying customers
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Post by bison137 on Jul 27, 2019 9:15:04 GMT -5
There is some truth to this - but only some. Over the past decade, Lehigh has been the second best program in the Patriot League - 40 games over .500 in league play. Yet they have lost many good players - players who were seeing serious playing time or who would have if they had stayed. The list includes: • Pat Andree • Caleb Bennett • Joe Foley • Brandon Alston • Matt Holba • Tyler Jenkins • Miles Simelton • Shane Whitfield And Boston U has been the PL's third best program since they joined the league - 20 games over .500 in six years - yet they have lost a number of good players over the past five years: • Tyler Scanlan • Jordan Guest • Destin Barnes • Cheddi Mosely • Maurice Watson • Malik Thomas The one difference between Boston U and Lehigh is that Boston has lost some of their players due to disciplinary issues. Lehigh has lost them simply because they wanted to be somewhere else. These fourteen guys probably have breakfast together at the NBA all star game each year.☺️ Not quite, but many did well, and the jury is still out on six on the list whose transfers were recent. Two of these players ended up as starters in the Big East and ACC respectively and a third (Andree) is likely to see real minutes at an ACC school this year. Three more ended up as starters at other mid-major leagues - and Scanlan will no doubt start this year as well for a very good program. Another of these transfers saw playing time in the A-10. Also Simelton ended up making 1st team all-conference at a D2 school much closer to home. Not everything worked perfectly for the players on the list, but I imagine most weren't unhappy with how things turned out. Three on the Boston U list, of course, had no choice but to leave.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 27, 2019 15:17:32 GMT -5
These results paint the level of play in the PL in a positive light and support Diet Pepsi's notion of diet guilt for pursuing one's dream.
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Post by MeatWilkerson on Jul 28, 2019 11:43:45 GMT -5
Any truth to the rumour that Matt Morrow, stud PF & offensive glass cleaner from Nichols College has entered the Transfer Portal and will be playing hoops at Holy Cross this season as a starting replacement for Floyd? I nearly spilled my martini when I heard the news.
We need all the help we can get. Jon Kerr certainly is not walking through that door!
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Post by rgs318 on Jul 28, 2019 12:30:01 GMT -5
Probably not. Morrow is a solid rebounder, but how many martinis had you had when you dreamed that up?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jul 28, 2019 12:34:02 GMT -5
Meat-- Welcome to the board, you've certainly made a big splash with your first few posts...….
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