|
Post by hchoops on Apr 22, 2019 14:17:38 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by possum on Apr 22, 2019 14:49:34 GMT -5
Agree Big O was a great player but didn't win much. In college didn't win a championship and Cincinnati won the next two after he graduated, in NBA only won when got to play with Jabbar well after his prime. Think Bob Pettit should be much higher than 20 classic power forward averaged 26 and 16 for his career.
|
|
|
Post by hchoops on Apr 22, 2019 14:59:31 GMT -5
Except for his one year with Kareem, The Big O never had the teammates to win another championship that the players above him had. He should not be penalized for that. He made every teammate a better player, and every team a much better team. Lebron’s LA team this season would be an example of what the Big O had to deal with.
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Apr 22, 2019 15:52:45 GMT -5
Except for his one year with Kareem, The Big O never had the teammates to win another championship that the players above him had. He should not be penalized for that. He made every teammate a better player, and every team a much better team. Looking at the Cincinnati Royals of the 1960's, and probably overlooking some players, I'd see that the Big O (how about him averaging a triple-double his second NBA season?) played with Good PlayersBob Boozer-1X All Star Adrian Smith-1 X All Star Happy Hairston- good, but never an all star Bob Love--was with Cincy before starring with Chicago StarsTom Van Arsdale- 3X All Star Wayne Embry-5 X All Star (that surprised me as I remember him as being serviceable but not great) Jack Twyman- 6X All Star All Time GreatJerry Lucas- 7X All Star in 10 seasons Cincy had some big winning seasons when Lucas and Oscar were together, but could not break through the loaded Celtics.
|
|
|
Post by possum on Apr 22, 2019 16:47:38 GMT -5
Royals had some pretty good teams in mid 60's it was just about impossible to beat Celtics at that time. They did however have Celts on brink of elimination in a five game series but lost the last two. And we all know that Russell never loses a winner take all game. I think his failings are more in college when his teams were always in top 5 and was number 1 ranked his senior season but never won a championship. Once he and next two top scorers graduated the Bearcats won the next two championships.
|
|
|
Post by hchoops on Apr 22, 2019 17:10:54 GMT -5
There have been many great players, some of whom above the Big O in this ranking who never won an NCAA championship. :West, Duncan, Bird. ,Wilt. Oscar made his college team much better than they would have been—79-9 two final fours.. I saw him get 50 in MSG over a very good Iowa team. Outside of Kareem, he is the best college player I ever saw. In 1960 an Ohio State team with Lucas, Havlicek, Siegfried and Nowell (4 NBA players)won. As in the pros, Oscar did not have good enough support.
|
|
|
Post by possum on Apr 22, 2019 17:56:22 GMT -5
4 years with Jabbar all 60 plus wins 1 championship, year after he left Cincinnati the immortal Paul Hogue led them to not one but two championships over the same Ohio State team, if you like stats you'll love the Big O and Wilt
|
|
|
Post by hchoops on Apr 22, 2019 19:25:21 GMT -5
Wilt played for stats first, O played to win first. He sacrificed shooting when playing with Kareem. Did you ever see O play ? Jerry West said he was the best defender in the league. No stat for that.
|
|
|
Post by possum on Apr 22, 2019 20:28:36 GMT -5
Watched the Big O and never thought of him as great defensive player, all-defensive teams were named starting in 1968 and Robertson never made 1st or 2nd team and certainly was not best defender in league, if you remember there was a guy named Russell playing at that time. I put a lot of weight on winning, and the Big O didn't do enough of that even when he was on a team with a top 5 all time player. One championship in four years when your team won more regular season games than anyone else during that period is not good enough. In college Cincinnati didn't win till he left and beat the same team he lost too not once but twice.
|
|
|
Post by hchoops on Apr 22, 2019 20:44:30 GMT -5
Jerry West was referring to non centers, and said O defended him better than anyone. It seems to me that you are comparing O as a winner to Bill Russell, which is unfair. I bet you are a Celtic fan.No one has won as much as he. To think that the Bucks team should have won more championships and that takes away from O is unfair also. Kareem was still. Very young and imo they did not have the other players to beat the best teams, the Knicks, Lakers and your hallowed Celtics in 72, 73, 74
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Apr 22, 2019 21:00:36 GMT -5
Watched the Big O and never thought of him as great defensive player, all-defensive teams were named starting in 1968 and Robertson never made 1st or 2nd team and certainly was not best defender in league, if you remember there was a guy named Russell playing at that time. I put a lot of weight on winning, and the Big O didn't do enough of that even when he was on a team with a top 5 all time player. One championship in four years when your team won more regular season games than anyone else during that period is not good enough. In college Cincinnati didn't win till he left and beat the same team he lost too not once but twice.That's the astounding element to this debate: Cincinnati lost Robertson who averaged 34 points, 15 rebounds, and 7 assists per game for his career (incl 34-14-7 as a senior) as well as Ralph Davis (14 PPG) and Larry Willey (8 PPG) and the next year added Tony Yates (7 PPG), Tom Thacker (12 PPG), who went on to be an NBA sub for a half dozen years, and Dale Heidotting who appears to be a career sub for Cincy, and yet the Bearcats went on to win the two championships. Scoring was spread out (2 players averaged 12 and 2 averaged 17) rather than concentrated in the Big O's hands. Still, it's not like Oscar graduated but Cincy signed two more all-Americans to replace him By the way--Oscar continued to play basketball regularly at the Cincinnati YMCA into his 60's
|
|
|
Post by hchoops on Apr 22, 2019 21:10:51 GMT -5
U of Cincinnati deserves great credit for those 2 championships, but that does not mean that they should have won during the big O’s years. Hogue developed into a much better player after O left, and Thacker and Yates were strong players. Davis and a young Hogue were not consistent enough to allow them to win it all. O was always a willing passer when he had players who could score. Remember his triple double season during his second NBA year. I believe that was not repeated until Westbrook recently.
|
|
|
Post by possum on Apr 22, 2019 21:30:14 GMT -5
The Big O shot 4-16 and had 18 points (16 below his average) in the semifinal loss to Cal so I don't think Paul Hogue was too young or inexperienced to help him win. It looks more like addition by subtraction and Cincinnati became a better team without the Big O.
|
|
|
Post by hchoops on Apr 22, 2019 21:40:27 GMT -5
Did you see him play in college ? Cal was the better team.and defended him effectively. He had 10 rebounds and 10 assists in that game. Hogue was dominated by Imhoff, 25-14. Hogue fouled out. There was no addition by subtraction.
|
|
|
Post by possum on Apr 22, 2019 22:04:32 GMT -5
Hoops the Big O couldn't have a bigger fan than you. Let me get this straight Cincinnati lost to a lower ranked team, Robertson scored 16 points below his average, and its Hogues fault they lost. Then the next two years without Robertson they beat the team that beat Cal the previous year but weren't a better team without him. In the NBA the Bucks won the championship in Jabbar's 2nd season but didn't win thereafter because Jabbar was too young and the Celtics and Knicks were too good. When the Knicks won the Bucks were knocked out in the first round, a great accomplishment for a 60 win team, and they were favored and lost the 7th game at home to the Celtics. A big time winner the Big O is not.
|
|
|
Post by possum on Apr 22, 2019 22:18:54 GMT -5
Great player indeed but in the really big moments didn't shine game 7 vs Celtics 2-13 for 6 points.
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Apr 22, 2019 22:42:40 GMT -5
He averaged 22 PPG, 7 rebounds, and 9 assists in the playoffs-important to note that 47 of his 86 playoff games game as a Buck.
|
|
|
Post by hchoops on Apr 23, 2019 5:43:16 GMT -5
Possum, Why will you not answer when you began to see him play ? I am far from the only hoops coach who is a huge Big O fan. Many of us who grew up with him loved the way he played. He was Jordan before Jordan without the high flyer highlights.(and you will retort also without the 6 rings)
|
|
|
Post by possum on Apr 23, 2019 6:34:49 GMT -5
Watched since 1960 although there was very limited coverage in those days compared to today. Obviously a great player who put up big numbers but in situations where he was on teams that could win he had some very poor performances. If I had one game to win Jerry West would be my guy over Oscar. Red Auerbach said West was the guy he feared the most.
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Apr 23, 2019 7:53:02 GMT -5
Great player indeed but in the really big moments didn't shine game 7 vs Celtics 2-13 for 6 points. You're referencing the 1974 final Bucks vs Celtics. Robertson had one other game 7 vs the Celtics, the 1962-63 Eastern Division finals : the Celtics won but Robertson did have 43 points in 48 minutes on 11-24 from the field and 21-22 from the line.
|
|
|
Cooz—#23
Dec 2, 2019 19:00:22 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by cmo on Dec 2, 2019 19:00:22 GMT -5
Getting some backlash and sure to get more once crossports gets at him.
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Dec 2, 2019 19:50:35 GMT -5
Nothing to do with Robertson, but how about 6 players from the 1992 Olympic Team. That was truly an exceptional squad
|
|
|
Post by hchoops on Dec 2, 2019 19:59:34 GMT -5
Getting some backlash and sure to get more once crossports gets at him. Ignorant and contradictory To use Cooz’s shooting percentage as the reason he is so overrated is ignorant. why did he not consider the league shooting percentage, and put Cooz in proper perspective ? What about his assists ? then he lauds Wilt’s rookie stats, but does not consider that he and Cooz played at the same time. And Bill Russell is shown, but not mentioned. this guy cannot get older, but he should talk with or read what some of the people who did see Cooz play.have to say.
|
|
|
Post by sarasota on Dec 2, 2019 20:01:34 GMT -5
Saw Oscar in the Garden, probably when HC played in the other game of the double header. He had the most gorgeous FT motion I have ever seen, a one-handed flick of the wrist. He and Pettit the most graceful I ever saw.
|
|
|
Post by Ignutz on Dec 2, 2019 22:16:23 GMT -5
Getting some backlash and sure to get more once crossports gets at him. Ignorant and contradictory To use Cooz’s shooting percentage as the reason he is so overrated is ignorant. why did he not consider the league shooting percentage, and put Cooz in proper perspective ? What about his assists ? then he lauds Wilt’s rookie stats, but does not consider that he and Cooz played at the same time. And Bill Russell is shown, but not mentioned. this guy cannot get older, but he should talk with or read what some of the people who did see Cooz play.have to say. I think LaJethro may have spent too much time underwater in Uncle Jed’s see-ment pond. (Who’s old enough to understand the reference?)
|
|