|
Post by longsuffering on Jun 20, 2019 14:54:11 GMT -5
Another thought about Mt. Ida. I recall it and Pine Manor of Brookline (where FADDR is CFO I believe) traditionally being women's Jr. colleges or what used to be referred to as "finishing schools" for well to do young women. Yet when Mt. Ida failed it had no significant endowment and Pine Manor had to sell off acreage from it's campus to abutters Robert Kraft and Tom Brady to stabilize it's finances (good work DR). What that says to me is that those two institutions had access to potential donations over the years from their legacy of well off alumnae but didn't capitalize on it to develop strong endowments nearly as well as Holy Cross has done. A sincere shout out of appreciation to the Development Department. Building the endowment was a priority of Father Brooks and he was a very capable leader.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Jun 20, 2019 15:11:24 GMT -5
I took td128's suggestion and created a separate thread under general sports in order to continue this discussion and allow this thread to get back to its "regularly scheduled program."
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Jun 20, 2019 16:14:00 GMT -5
The Boston media has nevah really been a big college athletics boostah in general (speaking from my personal perspective of the early 1970s onward). Holy Cross football was covered by the Boston papers (particularly the Globe) back in the 70s and 80s (I think Peter Gammons covered some games in the '70s) but it dropped off once Duffner left and as others have noted here, really is hardly covered there today. The Boston TV stations used to show HC hoop highlights then too. Maybe due somewhat to both alums Brian Leary and Clark Booth working at Boston stations then. Same factors at play as we've discussed here ad nauseum....HC is no longah playing BC routinely in hoop or football, the Patriot League may as well be the Mid American Conference to most people in Weymouth and Natick, college sports in general have taken a huge drop in interest in Greater Boston relative to the pro franchises etc etc Holy Cross hiring a new men's basketball coach is akin to say UMass-Lowell hiring a new hockey coach today in the Boston media...actually, it's probably not as big a story as that would be sadly. We are basically to the Boston media market in terms of athletics today. Well to the Boston Media then.
|
|
|
Post by jkh67 on Jun 20, 2019 19:21:57 GMT -5
Another thought about Mt. Ida. I recall it and Pine Manor of Brookline (where FADDR is CFO I believe) traditionally being women's Jr. colleges or what used to be referred to as "finishing schools" for well to do young women. Yet when Mt. Ida failed it had no significant endowment and Pine Manor had to sell off acreage from it's campus to abutters Robert Kraft and Tom Brady to stabilize it's finances (good work DR). What that says to me is that those two institutions had access to potential donations over the years from their legacy of well off alumnae but didn't capitalize on it to develop strong endowments nearly as well as Holy Cross has done. A sincere shout out of appreciation to the Development Department. Building the endowment was a priority of Father Brooks and he was a very capable leader. Father Brooks (one of my theology teachers way back when...Heils Geschichte, baby!) was indeed a major plus for HC...and a great supporter of HC football and basketball. I well remember a football game against Lafayette that had been moved from Worcester to Easton because it was Lafayette's 1,000th football game. I sat next to Brooks in the tiny visitor's bleacher at Fisher Field during a driving rain storm. And I mean driving. Brooksie told me he had been invited to sit in the Lafayette president's box (presumably warm and dry), but had told them he wanted to be with the Crusader contingent. That being said, his failure to at least take a crack at Big East basketball and his decision to join the PL (although where else we might have wound up has never been clear to me) have always been blots on his memory for me. I appreciate that many others on this board will disagree.
|
|
|
Post by Crucis#1 on Jun 20, 2019 19:48:23 GMT -5
Jkh67, do you remember the year of the game you mentioned. Was it 1987, 1988 or 1989?
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Jun 20, 2019 20:48:03 GMT -5
Another thought about Mt. Ida. I recall it and Pine Manor of Brookline (where FADDR is CFO I believe) traditionally being women's Jr. colleges or what used to be referred to as "finishing schools" for well to do young women. Yet when Mt. Ida failed it had no significant endowment and Pine Manor had to sell off acreage from it's campus to abutters Robert Kraft and Tom Brady to stabilize it's finances (good work DR). What that says to me is that those two institutions had access to potential donations over the years from their legacy of well off alumnae but didn't capitalize on it to develop strong endowments nearly as well as Holy Cross has done. A sincere shout out of appreciation to the Development Department. Building the endowment was a priority of Father Brooks and he was a very capable leader. Father Brooks (one of my theology teachers way back when...Heils Geschichte, baby!) was indeed a major plus for HC...and a great supporter of HC football and basketball. I well remember a football game against Lafayette that had been moved from Worcester to Easton because it was Lafayette's 1,000th football game. I sat next to Brooks in the tiny visitor's bleacher at Fisher Field during a driving rain storm. And I mean driving. Brooksie told me he had been invited to sit in the Lafayette president's box (presumably warm and dry), but had told them he wanted to be with the Crusader contingent. That being said, his failure to at least take a crack at Big East basketball and his decision to join the PL (although where else we might have wound up has never been clear to me) have always been blots on his memory for me. I appreciate that many others on this board will disagree. Don't disagree at all. I doubt anyone, with 20/20 hindsight can't easily see now that the Big East was a tremendous opportunity coinciding with the launch of ESPN, the launch of the Centrum, the growth of March Madness and the ability of Dave Gavitt to put together a league that quickly became much stronger than the collective sum it's member schools added up to before formation of the conference. But HC had modest resources then and a smaller enrollment than most of the member schools, the responsibility for the college was on Father Brooks' shoulders, and he, he took the road less traveled. And with apology to Robert Frost, it has made all the difference.
|
|
|
Post by nhteamer on Jun 21, 2019 6:47:58 GMT -5
Circulation of the T&G in 2017 was 33,000, a drop of 23% from 2016, and a far cry from the days when daily circulation was 125,000, and Sunday's probably higher yet. In 2018, daily circulation was 22,400. There are over 300,000 households in Worcester County, so the T&G is being delivered to one in 14 households. For the 280,000+ households that don't subscribe to the T&G, how do they regularly get news about HC? That is, if they even cared. IMO, an underlying presumption by some on this board is that the media coverage (and thus the audience) of HC sports today is not that much different from yesteryear. Hence, expectations, e.g., that HC could draw 2,500-3,000+, on average, playing HE in the DCU. Given the circulation collapse of the T&G, and the Globe's inherent dis-interest in college sports these days (and the Herald is little more than a hollowed-out shell), how does HC get the word out on a sustained basis to generate continuing fan interest in a HC sport, whether football, basketball, or ice hockey? The T&G newspaper is no longer locally, or regionally owned, so the owners don't give a rodent's behind about HC sports if HC students are not buying subscriptions. They do give a rodent's behind about controversy and scandal, because that sells newspapers. . WIN
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on Jun 21, 2019 9:56:24 GMT -5
I went to games at LC in 86,88,89 and 92. 88 and 89 were both there so that LC's 1000th game could be at home.
HC lost in 88; it was a crummy day weather-wise, at least the first half, when HC got blown out (28-7 or something like that). They did make a game out of it, losing by a TD, I believe. Weather was NOT a factor, they just played horribly; perhaps the loss the week before at Army took a lot out of them. Then, they had to go to Princeton and won on the miracle KO return. After that, the team played well like everyone thought they would, winning their last 7 easily.
89, don't remember much about the weather (it wasn't great, but exactly how bad it was I don't recall) , just how disappointing the crowd was for this apparently hyped-up event. Plus, Lafayette had a good team with a highly regarded quarterback. HC won on a last minute field goal.
|
|
|
Post by trimster on Jun 21, 2019 10:34:22 GMT -5
Actually, IMHO it is clear that most would agree with jkh67 that the decision not to enter the BE turned out to be a big mistake. Maybe, Fr. Brooks should have known better. However, in all fairness, the decision not to enter the BE was part of the larger dynamic recognizing the school's identity. At that time there was confusion about the identity of HC and the place of athletics. HC was the stereotypical small Catholic college, very dependent on sports, enthusiastic competitors and always punching above our weight. Clearly, Fr. Brooks believed that deemphasizing sports played an important role in the recognition of our identity. In an effort to clarify the identity of HC Fr. Brooks often stated his view that HC is a small, elite, rigorous, Jesuit Catholic liberal arts college, the "flagship of Catholic higher education. It was antithetical in his view for HC be dependent on sports for its identity as he believed that the school should be primarily known for its academics at the highest level. Thus, the deemphasis on sports was part of this bigger picture in an overall effort to fit into the paradigm of a small, academically rigorous New England college, Catholic/Jesuit style. A Catholic Amherst or Williams comes to mind. Furthermore, it is clear that he believed that given the school's small size and rigorous academics, it would be impossible - financially, academically to maintain a relatively large scale athletics program while staying true to its core values. In a conversation with me he expressed disdain for the demands and length of season of big-time college football - loosely quoted" they ought to give those guys a saliva test." Also, he was quite critical of the loss of institutional control by the abdication of oversight/responsibility by the university presidents - cheating, the corrupting influence of big money, non-existent academic standards, inherent in big time athletics, basketball included. In his view intercollegiate sports should be reduced to its proper place as an enjoyable, fiercely competitive but a largely minor activity for students and alums. He did not want basketball renown to be our marquee but instead he believed that HC should be valued and widely known for its high level of academics. PERIOD! Well folks, despite the tremendous changes at HC both academically and on campus - a much larger endowment, professionalization of faculty governance, a greater variety of course offerings, an overall broader approach, etc and the fielding of more teams associated with small colleges , it has not completely worked out in the way Fr. Brooks had envisaged. Obviously, we alums were raised in an HC with a higher level sports culture. We were totally dedicated to our teams, went to very home game and some away games as well. We will never forget those days of triumph and tragedy. Understandably, today many of us are bitterly disappointed by the lower level competition and lessened interest. The failure of HC to join the BE with all its attendant high level of competition and glory, tons of money and national branding, sticks in our craw. Sadly, HC has not reached Fr. Brook's goal of being a Catholic Amherst, "the flagship of Catholic higher education." In fact, it appears that HC's academic standing may have slipped a bit or has it been unmasked for what it has traditionally been, another ordinary Catholic school dependent on big time athletics and small time academics. In fact it appears that deemphasis may have damaged our academic branding. Indeed, HC does offer more("magis") as it has transitioned into a modern Catholic/Jesuit college on a beautiful campus but one with largely unsuccessful teams, a largely disinterested student body as we compete on a lower level perhaps with a lower academic standing. Certainly, this is impossible to accept for some alums. But, sadly perhaps, as the cliche says: "It is what it is" and will likely be for the forceable future. May the Lord give me the grace to accept... May Fr. Brooks rest in peace. He was an ardent, proud Crusader who did love sports but loved HC more. He was a good man. "Man plans, God laughs." Too wordy as usual... LoveHC Extremely well articulated. It's ironic that the person most if not solely responsible for the deemphasis of athletics at HC was one of the athletic programs most ardent supporters over the years.
|
|
|
Post by bfoley82 on Jun 21, 2019 12:11:36 GMT -5
Mt. Ida College had a full varsity D-3 football team and a full slate of intercollegiate sports when it suddenly failed and went out of business. Their board and Administrators were not blessed with the same common sense that Mr. and Mrs. Sader '70, Sr. taught you. When Anna Maria and Becker implemented new full D-3 Football programs within the last decade or so I remember reading how it was not done on a whim but rather was calculated as being a necessary amenity for the upcoming survival wars. (not a direct quote) The T&G had some nice stories about the first recruits for Anna Maria Football and it was clear that many of these young men were motivated to continue the sport they loved in college and Anna Maria offering football contributed to their choosing to attend. The President also cited studies or current industry literature that showed the power of spectator sport football to knit together a college community and help it bond. We saw evidence of that in spectator sport basketball as the Nichols fans screamed all through their tournament game at the Hart Center. But I think Mt. IDA showed you can't necessarily add amenities and programs to grow yourself out of a demographic death cycle. Each college has to figure out how to right size itself to match market realities in it's niche as well as it's underlying financial strength. My instinct would be to cut sports rather than add them if I had a say at a small college nearing the brink, and put any resources into providing the educational programs most in demand in that region. I'm sure Mt. Ida tried to do that with Funeral Services, Vet Technician and other programs but it wasn't enough. I shoot for Becker, Anna Maria, Nichols, and WPI...the checks clear all the time and not seeing any budget cutting in the athletic department.
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Jun 21, 2019 13:27:11 GMT -5
Excellent. Those colleges all contribute greatly to the quality of life in the area.
|
|
|
Post by bfoley82 on Jun 21, 2019 14:00:20 GMT -5
Excellent. Those colleges all contribute greatly to the quality of life in the area. Yea...I would expect that I would be the first one cut if they were having budget issues
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 21, 2019 15:39:34 GMT -5
Holy Cross is still punching above its weight among Catholic colleges and universities. Financially, the only Catholic school that benefited from joining the Big East was Boston College, and sports-related endowment growth at BC can likely be tied primarily to football. Non athletics related growth, i.e., much of the growth, can be tied to Peter Lynch. Endowment / EnrollmentProvidence $213 million / 4,646 Seton Hall About $250 million / 10,100 Villanova $711 million / 11,023 St. John's $717 million / 21,400 Syracuse $1.33 billion / 22,500 Georgetown $1.77 billion / 19,005 www.thehoya.com/georgetown-endowment-drops-3-percent-remains-lowest-of-top-20-schools/Boston College $2.6 billion / 14,500 (Pitt and UConn excluded as public universities). Holy Cross $783 million / 3,030 Providence with an enrollment that is about 50 percent higher, has an endowment that is about 27 percent of HC's endowment. Assuming no outbreak of hostilities with Iran before next Saturday, HC's endowment should show solid growth for the 208-19 fiscal year. After close of the markets on June 28th, all bets are off.
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Jun 21, 2019 16:06:41 GMT -5
Should there be a differentiation between undergraduate and graduate enrollment? I ask that because someone familiar with Assumption said they try to generate a surplus from their career oriented graduate programs to support their undergraduate mission. I wonder if graduate programs are generally self supporting and if endowments generally support undergraduate education, or do the larger research universities also need to tap their endowment to support the graduate schools?
If endowments are primarily used to support undergraduates then perhaps Holy Cross' endowment per undergraduate student is closer to the norm. I realize that Assumption is not a peer institution to the ones on your list and that unofficial opinion about Assumption from a friend is all I have to go on.
|
|
|
Post by jkh67 on Jun 21, 2019 19:47:59 GMT -5
Jkh67, do you remember the year of the game you mentioned. Was it 1987, 1988 or 1989? Unfortunately, no. All I recall is that it was wet and miserable.
|
|
|
Post by jkh67 on Jun 21, 2019 19:57:40 GMT -5
I went to games at LC in 86,88,89 and 92. 88 and 89 were both there so that LC's 1000th game could be at home. HC lost in 88; it was a crummy day weather-wise, at least the first half, when HC got blown out (28-7 or something like that). They did make a game out of it, losing by a TD, I believe. Weather was NOT a factor, they just played horribly; perhaps the loss the week before at Army took a lot out of them. Then, they had to go to Princeton and won on the miracle KO return. After that, the team played well like everyone thought they would, winning their last 7 easily. 89, don't remember much about the weather (it wasn't great, but exactly how bad it was I don't recall) , just how disappointing the crowd was for this apparently hyped-up event. Plus, Lafayette had a good team with a highly regarded quarterback. HC won on a last minute field goal. Funny you should mention that Princeton game at Palmer Stadium where Nolan Cromwell (I believe) took the ball out of a mid-field scrum and ran it in for the winning TD. I was there and got to relive the experience with a football player on Princeton's team that year at a cocktail party at my daughter's Bronxville, NY home a few weeks back. He remembered it vividly. He also noted that HC's demolition job on his alma mater at Fitton the following year was, he said, the biggest defeat in Princeton history. I decided not to let on that we were playing with athletic scholarship players while they were not. In theory anyway.
|
|
|
Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Jun 21, 2019 20:02:42 GMT -5
Nolan Cromwell played at Kansas.
|
|
|
Post by Crucis#1 on Jun 21, 2019 20:18:02 GMT -5
Daren Cromwell received the kickoff after Princeton scored with 2 seconds remaining in the game. Darren lateraled to Tim Donovan who ran down the sidelines to score with no time remaining in the game. That was September 24, 1988. What a game! www.nytimes.com/1988/09/25/sports/college-football-ivy-league-holy-cross-stuns-tigers-on-last-play.htmlThose HC uniforms are still my all time favorite. When Princeton scored the go ahead TD, several HC alumni got up from there seats and left the game. Fortunately, I stayed to the victorious end. 😎
|
|
|
Post by breezy on Jun 21, 2019 21:09:36 GMT -5
It was Darin Cromwell. If you want to re-live that victory over Princeton (or see it for the first time):
Lots of folks got up to leave after Princeton kicked the field goal. Some heard the roar of the crowd on the runback, and came running back up the stairs, asking "What happened? What happened?" They missed a once-in-a-lifetime experience.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Jun 21, 2019 22:37:38 GMT -5
Oh, you saw my wife?! She loves football but in those early days did not understand that you get to finish the final play even after time expires. I tried unsuccessfully to explain that there was still a chance but she was so disgusted by Princeton going ahead and with but 2 seconds left she said that no one could run the length of the field in that time and stormed out to the parking lot saying "I'll see you back in the car!" " She heard the roar of the crowd and was devastated that she missed the final play. Thanks for sharing the clip!
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Jun 21, 2019 23:15:46 GMT -5
Thanks Breezy. Don't forget to stay tuned after that video because it was immediately followed on You Tube with "Holy Cross football, A century of Excellence" from 1995.
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 22, 2019 8:33:51 GMT -5
Should there be a differentiation between undergraduate and graduate enrollment? I ask that because someone familiar with Assumption said they try to generate a surplus from their career oriented graduate programs to support their undergraduate mission. I wonder if graduate programs are generally self supporting and if endowments generally support undergraduate education, or do the larger research universities also need to tap their endowment to support the graduate schools? If endowments are primarily used to support undergraduates then perhaps Holy Cross' endowment per undergraduate student is closer to the norm. I realize that Assumption is not a peer institution to the ones on your list and that unofficial opinion about Assumption from a friend is all I have to go on. No, the endowment supports the entire institution. It would take accountants a month of Sundays to try and figure out how much of an individual university's endowment is restricted to undergraduates, how much is restricted to graduate programs, and how much can be used by either. If a professorship is newly endowed, and the professor teaches classes to undergraduates and graduates, one doesn't try to divvy up the allocation of endowment monies for that professor on the basis of # of undergraduate / graduate classes / students.. Harvard's recently concluded capital campaign raised $1.4 billion for HBS, and $790 million for Harvard Medical, none of those monies will benefit undergraduates. Of the total $9.6 billion that was raised, IIRC about $1.3 billion was raised for student financial aid, but some of that aid will go to graduate students.. One can safely posit that virtually all / all endowment monies restricted to athletics are spent only on undergraduates. Other PL football school endowmentsFordham $739 million Bucknell $851 million as of June 30 2018, $805 million on Dec 31, 2018; it should have since recovered. Colgate $934 million Lafayette $968 million (as of April 19, 2019 (Bloomberg) Lehigh $1.3 billion
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Jun 22, 2019 11:42:31 GMT -5
PL: Quality schools with proud alums.
|
|
|
Post by thecrossisback on Jun 22, 2019 16:44:02 GMT -5
Oh, you saw my wife?! She loves football but in those early days did not understand that you get to finish the final play even after time expires. I tried unsuccessfully to explain that there was still a chance but she was so disgusted by Princeton going ahead and with but 2 seconds left she said that no one could run the length of the field in that time and stormed out to the parking lot saying "I'll see you back in the car!" " She heard the roar of the crowd and was devastated that she missed the final play. Thanks for sharing the clip!
|
|