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Post by efg72 on Oct 24, 2019 18:47:09 GMT -5
The losses of Kevin Stacom to Providence and Bobby Kelly to St.John's while understandable today it still hurt a lot at that time. I admit that maybe due to my youth, I took those losses personally and hard. No hate, just pain and bewilderment. LoveHC Bobby Kelly, was a terrific player, but he was never happy at HC. I know it killed the players and staff when he departed but by accounts I am aware of he was never happy at St John’s either
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Post by hchoops on Oct 24, 2019 18:51:25 GMT -5
Thanks for your analysis . Good memory. Grandison is not going to the NBA. Kevin could have gone to the NBA from HC. I blamed Gavitt more than Kevin. Kot72 can respond as well but Gavitt and Reardon poached kevin away from HC. Kevin had a great career, would have had a great career if he didn’t leave, and like hoops says he would have made it to the NBA. Kevin and I discussed this after a playoff game against the Bullets-if I recall correctly he was more focused on Jack D as the reason for his departure. I Perhaps, but without Jack D Kevin would have been at a .D2 or 3 school.
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Post by efg72 on Oct 24, 2019 18:58:21 GMT -5
Perhaps you are right Kevin was a member of your all heart and desire team who worked on his game all of the time. While others were thinking about getting better he made himself better.
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Post by hchoops on Oct 24, 2019 19:24:51 GMT -5
Perhaps you are right Kevin was a member of your all heart and desire team who worked on his game all of the time. While others were thinking about getting better he made himself better. As a high school junior Kevin played very little, not starting any game. As a senior he started, but was the fourth or fifth option on his Holy Cross high school team in Queens. His coach, Bill O’Meara, assured Jack Donohue, who knew Bill well from Jack’s Power Memorial days, that Kevin did indeed have the heart, desire and work habits you write of and had consistently improved as he physically grew. Jack Donohue (with the help of Mr. Dick Maloney) was the only D1 coach to trust Bill’s judgment and offer Kevin a scholarship.
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Post by efg72 on Oct 24, 2019 19:29:12 GMT -5
Look I agree with the loyalty and would add trust to the equation. Unfortunately the world we have lived in and the people we have lived with all these years don’t all share our values-and that is a shame
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Post by hc87 on Oct 24, 2019 19:37:42 GMT -5
We can add Joe Mullaney as another HC basketball player who went to PC but as a coach. He was a great competitor and a great coach. Was he instrumental in putting PC basketball on the map, sort of like a founding father of successful PC basketball or had they had great success prior to Mullaney's arrival in the '50's? LoveHC Mullaney brought PC to prominence....very little success prior to his arrival
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Post by hchoops on Oct 24, 2019 19:49:11 GMT -5
To be fair, Joe recruited his share of academic and personally questionable people, but very good players, Johnny Egan, Jimmie Walker, and Dexter Westbrook to name three. Gavitt continued this tradition with Marvin “Bad News” Barnes.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 25, 2019 9:04:33 GMT -5
There were some very talented players on the HC team Stacom deserted Due to many of the factors listed above (and perhaps Jack himself), the program had hit a wall...really can't criticize Kevin for making the move even though, as you say, there was a decent nucleus returning. Also, Jack was a post-oriented guy. Often tough for guards to shine in his system. He often didn't care how wide open they left a guard, still wanted him to at least attempt to pound the ball down low. For example, Bruce Grentz had a career night his junior year (can't remember against who), went something like 9-12 from the outside. After the game, I saw some notes Jack had written down, said "Grentz is shooting too much".
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Post by hchoops on Oct 25, 2019 9:13:16 GMT -5
I would be happy to have hit a wall similar to the 18-8 in ‘70-‘71 (when Kevin would have played as a junior) the past ten years. As I have posted before, Jack Donohue’s winning percentage of .616 is slightly higher than that of Ralph Willard’s and way ahead of George Blaney’s, yet he constantly receives far more criticism on this board than either of those very good coaches.
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Post by trimster on Oct 25, 2019 9:21:41 GMT -5
There were some very talented players on the HC team Stacom deserted Due to many of the factors listed above (and perhaps Jack himself), the program had hit a wall...really can't criticize Kevin for making the move even though, as you say, there was a decent nucleus returning. Also, Jack was a post-oriented guy. Often tough for guards to shine in his system. He often didn't care how wide open they left a guard, still wanted him to at least attempt to pound the ball down low. For example, Bruce Grentz had a career night his junior year (can't remember against who), went something like 9-12 from the outside. After the game, I saw some notes Jack had written down, said "Grentz is shooting too much". If JD was such a low post oriented coach, I have to wonder why he didn't try to use some type of double low post offense with Hochstein and Texeira. Seemed like a waste to have Tex playing 15 feet from the hoop.
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Post by hchoops on Oct 25, 2019 9:25:30 GMT -5
Due to many of the factors listed above (and perhaps Jack himself), the program had hit a wall...really can't criticize Kevin for making the move even though, as you say, there was a decent nucleus returning. Also, Jack was a post-oriented guy. Often tough for guards to shine in his system. He often didn't care how wide open they left a guard, still wanted him to at least attempt to pound the ball down low. For example, Bruce Grentz had a career night his junior year (can't remember against who), went something like 9-12 from the outside. After the game, I saw some notes Jack had written down, said "Grentz is shooting too much". If JD was such a low post oriented coach, I have to wonder why he didn't try to use some type of double low post offense with Hochstein and Texeira. Seemed like a waste to have Tex playing 15 feet from the hoop. Texeira did not want to play in the post. He wanted to play a forward facing the hoop.(when he wanted to play)
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Post by rickii on Oct 25, 2019 11:01:44 GMT -5
Since Grandison left only after the coach quit I think he weighed the option of using his junior year of eligibility transitioning to a new coach and system, or transferring to a new school using his sit out year learning a new system and hitting the ground running next year with two years of eligibility remaining. I don't hold a grudge against him for doing what he thinks is best for him. Hoops is big on the one offer loyalty pledge. It's the same argument he had about Stacom 45 years ago despite not taking into account the fact that HC was looking to downgrade athletics, had entered the Yankee Conference, and Brooks was trying to implement a need based scholarship program. Stacom wanted to play professionally and Providence not HC was going to give him the best opportunity to reach that goal. I have zero recollection of HC looking to downgrade athletics circa 1970-71. If so, he certainly junked that notion in 1980 by going all-in in football by hiring ( with Ed WilIiams guidance ) the then hottest coach in America in Rick Carter. In fact, in wasn't until 1984 that Brooks by himself ( with a mandate from Haaved's Derek Boc ) rammed the Colonial League down our throats.
As to the Yankee Conference, HC joined - for 1 year in football only - in 1971. This was a panic driven quick decision directly following the 1969 hepititus disaster with a hapless 0-11 1970 season.
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Post by Tom on Oct 25, 2019 11:01:47 GMT -5
There were some very talented players on the HC team Stacom deserted .really can't criticize Kevin for making the move I can. On a Crusader message board, I can criticize anybody for leaving HC for any reason.
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Post by rickii on Oct 25, 2019 11:23:50 GMT -5
If JD was such a low post oriented coach, I have to wonder why he didn't try to use some type of double low post offense with Hochstein and Texeira. Seemed like a waste to have Tex playing 15 feet from the hoop. Texeira did not want to play in the post. He wanted to play a forward facing the hoop.(when he wanted to play) First of all, while I don't exactly agree with his take on Grandison's transfer, there isn't ANYONE on this board who has the wealth of first-hand knowledge and historical perspective regarding NYC school boy basketball than hchoops….period !
Keith Hochstein and Ron Texeira were simply oil and water. Keith was 6'3" ( NOT the listed 6'4" ) 220 and a bull. Ron was maybe 6'9" 235 and more a finess type player who, as hoops alludes, preferred jump shots over garbage post follow-ups and slam dunks.
Donohue had a fault in this. He wanted Ron to play like Lew Alcindor and ultimately the two didn't get along. Donohue once told me that, among other faults, Ron had 'small hands'. Twas obvious back then that this wasn't going in the right direction.
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Post by hchoops on Oct 25, 2019 11:35:16 GMT -5
Thanks for the comments, rick I am not sure it was a fault of Jack Donohue’s to want the biggest, most athletic player on the team by far to play the low post. Jack gave in to him and the results were mixed initially, but failed when Texeira chose to stop playing. The team’s limited success was due to Ed Siudut, Keith Hochstein and Al Stazinski. As far as playing like Lewie, I am pretty sure that Donohue very quickly realized that, despite some of those deluded Massachusetts fans and students, these two were far, far from any comparable.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 25, 2019 13:22:51 GMT -5
Since Grandison left only after the coach quit I think he weighed the option of using his junior year of eligibility transitioning to a new coach and system, or transferring to a new school using his sit out year learning a new system and hitting the ground running next year with two years of eligibility remaining. I don't hold a grudge against him for doing what he thinks is best for him. Hoops is big on the one offer loyalty pledge. It's the same argument he had about Stacom 45 years ago despite not taking into account the fact that HC was looking to downgrade athletics, had entered the Yankee Conference, and Brooks was trying to implement a need based scholarship program. Stacom wanted to play professionally and Providence not HC was going to give him the best opportunity to reach that goal. I have zero recollection of HC looking to downgrade athletics circa 1970-71. If so, he certainly junked that notion in 1980 by going all-in in football by hiring ( with Ed WilIiams guidance ) the then hottest coach in America in Rick Carter. In fact, in wasn't until 1984 that Brooks by himself ( with a mandate from Haaved's Derek Boc ) rammed the Colonial League down our throats.
As to the Yankee Conference, HC joined - for 1 year in football only - in 1971. This was a panic driven quick decision directly following the 1969 hepititus disaster with a hapless 0-11 1970 season.
Im sure we would love to be back in YanCon for football now. 2nd best league in FCS, now known as the CAA.
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Post by hcnation on Oct 25, 2019 13:29:21 GMT -5
I would be happy to have hit a wall similar to the 18-8 in ‘70-‘71 (when Kevin would have played as a junior) the past ten years. As I have posted before, Jack Donohue’s winning percentage of .616 is slightly higher than that of Ralph Willard’s and way ahead of George Blaney’s, yet he constantly receives far more criticism on this board than either of those very good coaches. 70-71 season, Stacom played for the Cross as a sophomore, right? Donohue’s last 2 recruiting classes at Holy Cross were not as strong as prior years.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 25, 2019 14:21:24 GMT -5
Since Grandison left only after the coach quit I think he weighed the option of using his junior year of eligibility transitioning to a new coach and system, or transferring to a new school using his sit out year learning a new system and hitting the ground running next year with two years of eligibility remaining. I don't hold a grudge against him for doing what he thinks is best for him. Hoops is big on the one offer loyalty pledge. It's the same argument he had about Stacom 45 years ago despite not taking into account the fact that HC was looking to downgrade athletics, had entered the Yankee Conference, and Brooks was trying to implement a need based scholarship program. Stacom wanted to play professionally and Providence not HC was going to give him the best opportunity to reach that goal. I have zero recollection of HC looking to downgrade athletics circa 1970-71. If so, he certainly junked that notion in 1980 by going all-in in football by hiring ( with Ed WilIiams guidance ) the then hottest coach in America in Rick Carter. In fact, in wasn't until 1984 that Brooks by himself ( with a mandate from Haaved's Derek Boc ) rammed the Colonial League down our throats.
As to the Yankee Conference, HC joined - for 1 year in football only - in 1971. This was a panic driven quick decision directly following the 1969 hepititus disaster with a hapless 0-11 1970 season.
Actually, we were at least looking into going without athletic scholarships as early as the early 1970s. It's come up on this board before (articles from The Crusader on the topic in the early 1970s) that the HC admin. was considering doing that. I chatted with Stacom at the Piccadilly Pub (which he partly owns I believe) in Newport years ago. My recollection (very hazy lol) is that he liked HC but couldn't at the time turn down going to PC, playing with Ernie D, Marvin et. al. playing in the then new Civic Centah etc etc
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 25, 2019 16:13:58 GMT -5
So he didn't approach PC, the Friars came and lured him away ("stole") him from HC?
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Post by timholycross on Oct 25, 2019 17:55:06 GMT -5
I have zero recollection of HC looking to downgrade athletics circa 1970-71. If so, he certainly junked that notion in 1980 by going all-in in football by hiring ( with Ed WilIiams guidance ) the then hottest coach in America in Rick Carter. In fact, in wasn't until 1984 that Brooks by himself ( with a mandate from Haaved's Derek Boc ) rammed the Colonial League down our throats.
As to the Yankee Conference, HC joined - for 1 year in football only - in 1971. This was a panic driven quick decision directly following the 1969 hepititus disaster with a hapless 0-11 1970 season.
Actually, we were at least looking into going without athletic scholarships as early as the early 1970s. It's come up on this board before (articles from The Crusader on the topic in the early 1970s) that the HC admin. was considering doing that. I chatted with Stacom at the Piccadilly Pub (which he partly owns I believe) in Newport years ago. My recollection (very hazy lol) is that he liked HC but couldn't at the time turn down going to PC, playing with Ernie D, Marvin et. al. playing in the then new Civic Centah etc etc The YC was supposed to be for all sports (men's, obviously; women wouldn't be part of the process for several years). I'm positive of that. But Perry quashed it so fast that HC was never in the league except for a few minor sports.
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Post by hchoops on Oct 26, 2019 0:30:05 GMT -5
So he didn't approach PC, the Friars came and lured him away ("stole") him from HC? Basically, yes
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Post by possum on Oct 26, 2019 5:30:34 GMT -5
Hoops the 71-72 team Stacom left was actually 15-11, the prior year he played they were 18-8. The interesting thing about both teams is that they were both in position for a post season bid but just like all Donohue's teams did they folded like a cheap suit and lost the last three games each year. The difference between Donohue and Blaney/Willard is they actually won some meaningful late season games and led us to 8 and 5 post season appearances in their tenures. I'm glad you're happy with Donohue's winning percentage but I don't know how anyone who followed the team at that point could not be completely exasperated by the continual late season flops. In the six years he had quality personnel Donohue's teams went 3-15 in the last three games of the season. I know you've said that they played good teams at the end of the year but unfortunately to get to postseason play you've got to beat some good teams and his teams failed miserably in those situations. I'll take Blaney or Willard any day of the week over Donohue notwithstanding their winning percentages.
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Post by trimster on Oct 26, 2019 6:19:15 GMT -5
In all fairness to Jack Donohue, the last 3 games were often Providence, BC and St. John's.
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Post by possum on Oct 26, 2019 8:02:56 GMT -5
Yeah it's too bad he had to play good teams, who were also traditional rivals, but you can't get to postseason play by just beating up on the sisters of the poor. To make matters worse 10 of the 15 end of season losses were at home. If you wanted a coach who was great at funny one liners then Jack was your guy but if you wanted to win big games you better look elsewhere.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 26, 2019 8:15:07 GMT -5
I always liked Jack. He was a personable guy, a good coach, and a great speaker. However, he did have some flaws (as we all do), and his late season failures were among those.
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