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Post by CHC8485 on Oct 18, 2019 8:47:35 GMT -5
Holy Cross does have an economic impact report on the website from FY16. Gives more of a breakdown by components rather than a sum total of that impact. Probably in the range of $75-$80 million in this report which seems focused on impact to the City. This HC summary also does not include the impact of alumni in Worcester, Worcester County or the State. Suppose it's due for an update. www.holycross.edu/sites/default/files/hc_in_the_communityfinal.pdfAs to the Fairfield report, I'm also confused - I know. Not hard to do. The article says So I don't know what time period was studied in the current impact report but if another study was released 2 years earlier, the time period studied in each report can't be that far apart and so I find a claim that the impact doubled in let's say 5 years to be dubious unless things were included in the most recent study that were not included in the prior study. A full report, rather than a press release or summary from both would be interesting to read.
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Post by Tom on Oct 18, 2019 9:29:40 GMT -5
If you build a Luth, Performing Arts Center, and a major student rec facility in under 5 years, that can have a major skew.
Last I knew, HC was the second biggest employer in the city behind UMass. Even though there is no PILOT, the school writes a lot of checks to the city
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 18, 2019 9:32:23 GMT -5
The $2BN number for Fairfield is preposterous
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Post by CHC8485 on Oct 18, 2019 12:57:39 GMT -5
And are really hard to verify!
In that respect, the involvement/benefits described in the Holy Cross promotional material is a bit more specific and transparent than the e-mail from Fairfield. That's why I said it would be interesting to read the report. And after a quick glance/search of the Fairfield website, I could not find the study or a press release on the economic benefit the school delivers to the community.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 18, 2019 14:09:46 GMT -5
if Fairfield has 5,000 students paying $50,000 that's $250MM revenue for the school. Other revenue is likely minimal. How many times does this model say that revenue turns over to generate that total impact?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 18, 2019 20:27:24 GMT -5
How about salary paid to staff and faculty in Fairfield? What about rent and other payments paid by students, parents by members of the Fairfield community? What about money spent by those who come to the college for events? Liimiting it to tuition is only a fraction of financial benefit to the City and area. I understand that, but the tuition is the source of the salaries paid to staff and faculty. Where else would the money come from? The key is how many times do you believe the revenue (whatever is the source) turns over.?
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Post by efg72 on Oct 20, 2019 18:39:32 GMT -5
How about salary paid to staff and faculty in Fairfield? What about rent and other payments paid by students, parents by members of the Fairfield community? What about money spent by those who come to the college for events? Liimiting it to tuition is only a fraction of financial benefit to the City and area. I understand that, but the tuition is the source of the salaries paid to staff and faculty. Where else would the money come from? The key is how many times do you believe the revenue (whatever is the source) turns over.? Money spent in the local community, by students, family, friend, alums and vendors used by the school are all factors normally included in any economic impact study.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 20, 2019 20:32:42 GMT -5
No doubt--still the number seems absurd to me.
"Gross national product (GNP) is a broad measure of a nation's total economic activity. GNP is the value of all finished goods and services produced in a country in one year by its nationals." The GNP of the USA is 19,324 Billion $$$ ($19.324 Trillion). That equals about $59,000 per person. The Fairfield example--$2BN for 5,000 students works out to $400,000 per person. I understand that the students have some spending money and that mom and Dad come for parents weekend, etc, and I get this whole magic of $$$ turning over again and again, but I can't get to $2BN.
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Post by efg72 on Oct 20, 2019 20:45:06 GMT -5
No doubt--still the number seems absurd to me. "Gross national product (GNP) is a broad measure of a nation's total economic activity. GNP is the value of all finished goods and services produced in a country in one year by its nationals." The GNP of the USA is 19,324 Billion $$$ ($19.324 Trillion). That equals about $59,000 per person. The Fairfield example--$2BN for 5,000 students works out to $400,000 per person. I understand that the students have some spending money and that mom and Dad come for parents weekend, etc, and I get this whole magic of $$$ turning over again and again, but I can't get to $2BN. Maybe not, but until we know the multiplier effect it is just a wild guess. real estate owned by the school can also be a part of the number
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 21, 2019 5:38:55 GMT -5
UConn and the other schools in the state system of colleges and universities contributed $11 billion!! On in 19 jobs in CT is supported by the state higher education system. www.nhregister.com/news/article/Study-CSCU-system-contributes-11-1-billion-to-13447839.phpRounding state employment to two million, that's about 100,000 jobs. UConn main campus total employment is 9,500 in 2019. Multiplier of 2.5 would be about 15,000 jobs, for a total of about 25,000 jobs. Strikes me as the consulting firm used a higher multiplier than that. The GDP for CT in 2018 was $242 billion. I doubt Fairfield contributed one percent of the GDP of CT. Is there a link source for the Fairfield claim?
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Post by alum on Oct 21, 2019 7:52:34 GMT -5
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 21, 2019 8:30:29 GMT -5
UConn and the other schools in the state system of colleges and universities contributed $11 billion!! On in 19 jobs in CT is supported by the state higher education system. www.nhregister.com/news/article/Study-CSCU-system-contributes-11-1-billion-to-13447839.phpRounding state employment to two million, that's about 100,000 jobs. UConn main campus total employment is 9,500 in 2019. Multiplier of 2.5 would be about 15,000 jobs, for a total of about 25,000 jobs. Strikes me as the consulting firm used a higher multiplier than that. The GDP for CT in 2018 was $242 billion. I doubt Fairfield contributed one percent of the GDP of CT. Is there a link source for the Fairfield claim? That works out to $67,000 per person, slightly higher than the number for the USA as a whole. No surprise there--CT is a wealthy state. It's good to be able to put my economics degree from HC to use on this thread
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Post by CHC8485 on Oct 21, 2019 9:40:55 GMT -5
Continue to color me confused and skeptical.
I'm not the brightest guy (especially economically) here, but from the study graphic:
By their definition, they seem to come up about $900,000,000 short.
Even if I add in that 5 year average Capital assets figure of $ 535,921,000, that they somehow show flowing out of the employee, student, and visitor spending you still only get to around $740,000,000.
Where does the extra $440,000,000 in direct spending come from??
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 21, 2019 11:04:59 GMT -5
This looks like it is going to be the longest thread that I have tried to delete since starting it.
Dean, if you are out there and watching, please kill this thread for me as it has devolved from the original intent. It used to be easy to delete a thread if you were the original poster. Apparently, not anymore.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 21, 2019 11:24:06 GMT -5
Thank you. Well, first, the author includes the value of capital assets, which is a huge number relatively speaking. Capital assets include land, works of art, etc., and buildings. There is no direct economic impact from a capital asset, per se IF the author had included the cost of construction put in place during a particular year, I would consider that construction as having a direct economic impact. Second, the author assumes that all university purchases of supplies, equipment, etc. are bought from firms and businesses located in CT. That simply is not the case. I do acknowledge that calculating the value of purchases from CT businesses is difficult to do without sampling a range of procurements to determine which are intra-state in origin, and which are not. The author's approach is akin to the state of Washington calculating the direct economic impact of Boeing, and positing that the entirety of the plane, --engines, instrumentation, etc., etc., is manufactured solely in Renton and Everett. Third, direct spending by employees is very likely overstated. The value is probably calculated by totaling the wages and compensation paid to an institution's employees. As such, this would include Federal income taxes, FICA taxes, and employee and institution contributions to an employee's retirement plan, most/all of which do not remain in-state. A better value would be to total employee gross disposable income, although I concede that's not easily done; it would take some work. Interpolating from Fairfield's audited financial report for fiscal 2018, the base salary for all Fairfield employees totaled around $63 million. This value is higher than the disposable income value, as it would include unpaid income taxes. The report states that all Fairfield employees spent $100 million. Fourth, the multiplier "induced spending" includes the value of capital assets. Restricting the value of direct spending (with the inherent methodological flaws) to that by the university, students, employees, and visitors, the total is about $200 billion. The multiplier value would be about 4x to get to the "induced spending" amount of $795 million. I could go on, but this report is simply not good scholarship. Lastly, IMO, the $2 billion number for Fairfield is hogwash, and that also holds true for the listed economic impact values of the other Connecticut private schools.
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Post by Dean Wormer on Oct 21, 2019 16:42:53 GMT -5
Seems this thread has trod an unexpected path. Certainly enough question about the methodology of the study.
There is one post that sort of answers the original question you posed, though it seems no one wanted to talk about that since the HC data seems more objective and the stated Fairfield impact seems so inordinately large.
Absent a full copy of the methodology, it doesn't seem that there's too much more to be said on the topic, but I don't think it should be deleted, as folks seem intrigued about digging into the data - at least as far as Fairfield is concerned.
As to deleting full threads you start ...
I may have set up this board to not allow an original author to delete a whole thread as we had a poster (who shall remain nameless) who liked to delete threads he started when he didn't like when other posters challenged his opinion with facts.
Carry on.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 21, 2019 17:03:12 GMT -5
OK. SInce 8485 is now the author of the top thread, he can now be the "owner" of this thread.
The intent, as the title suggests, was about Holy Cross' economic impact on the community since the College has periodically come under fire for the lack of local taxes paid and the initial link was about the impact of Fairfield University. It was an independent study. Now you guys can slice and dice this study any which way you care to and I, too, took some economics classes at HC (and hated them) but a couple of my takeaways was 1. Economics, despite what economists would like you to believe, is NOT a science and more an art and is subject to many variables and interpretations and 2. As some posted above a dollar earned or spent rolls over many times. I guess if you buy #1, you shouldn't assume #2 is correct.
So, if you all choose to debate the accuracy of this Fairfield report which is simply a subset of a larger report on the financial impact of Connecticut independent colleges, knock yourselves out.
As as for all you economic experts, it was easy enough to track down the email of the study's author. Why don't you contact him?
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Post by moose1970 on Oct 21, 2019 17:15:10 GMT -5
OK. SInce 8485 is now the author of the top thread, he can now be the "owner" of this thread. The intent, as the title suggests, was about Holy Cross' economic impact on the community since the College has periodically come under fire for the lack of local taxes paid and the initial link was about the impact of Fairfield University. It was an independent study. Now you guys can slice and dice this study any which way you care to and I, too, took some economics classes at HC (and hated them) but a couple of my takeaways was 1. Economics, despite what economists would like you to believe, is NOT a science and more an art and is subject to many variables and interpretations and 2. As some posted above a dollar earned or spent rolls over many times. I guess if you buy #1, you shouldn't assume #2 is correct. So, if you all choose to debate the accuracy of this Fairfield report which is simply a subset of a larger report on the financial impact of Connecticut independent colleges, knock yourselves out. As as for all you economic experts, it was easy enough to track down the email of the study's author. Why don't you contact him? go figure* *A slang phrase used only in the United States of America, short for "go and figure that out".
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Post by CHC8485 on Oct 21, 2019 18:11:48 GMT -5
1970
First, don't dump this thread on me because you're dissatisfied with the direction the thread took. You want it to go in a different direction, post something to take it there. You asked a question in your initial post. I provided an answer. I suppose there should have been nothing else to say after that, but then, that would make this the Bucknell, the Lehigh, or the Colgate board. Which brings up,
Second, this is Crossports. We dissect nits, particularly when they seem incongruous. This news release from Fairfield and the study "report" had a bunch of statements about benefit and nothing describing how they got their numbers. And when the numbers seem preposterous, critical thinkers question them. It's what we do.
And finally, to be clear, the study is hardly independent. It's an essentially an "Industry Association," if you will, of private colleges & universities in Connecticut that published conclusions of a "study" that says their members have a huge economic impact on the state.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 21, 2019 18:59:46 GMT -5
I only jumped in when I read the snippet about Fairfield and $2 billion of economic impact. I am not unfamiliar with making such calculations, and I am not unfamiliar with efforts to exaggerate the economic importance of a program or entity. www.nytimes.com/1972/10/18/archives/president-vetoes-clean-water-bill-nixon-acts-despite-strong.htmlwww.nytimes.com/1972/10/17/archives/ruckelshaus-backs-water-pollution-bill-a-nixon-official-backs-water.html^^^ I am quoting myself, because I wrote the letter. The hyperbole, with both barrels, was at the direction of Mr. Ruckelshaus. He was still talking about this letter 35 years later. For the rest of the story: The letter was leaked to the press. I received a call from a reporter for a Midwestern newspaper (Detroit?) on a Saturday afternoon at home asking if I could verify the letter. I played dumb, saying I hadn't seen a signed copy, which was true. The White House said the FBI would be called in to find the leaker. The FBI was never called. The leaker turned out to be John Ehrlichman., a key aide of Nixon. Ruckelshaus went on to be Deputy Attorney General and subsequently resigned during the 'Saturday Night Massacre'. Ehrlichman went to prison as a consequence of Watergate.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 22, 2019 8:04:02 GMT -5
OK. I apologize to all of you interested in this subject for trying to slip my responsibility for starting this thread.
And yes, 8485, I should have known better how this thread would have skewed. (My words not yours).
But for those obviously more expert than I on the subject, I again suggest that if you think there are errors, large or small, in this report that you be fair and ask the author directly. Give him a chance to explain his methodology. After all, he does have doctorate in economics from Penn State.
Here’s his contact info at Quinnipiac: Mark.Gius@quinnipiac.edu
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