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Post by HC92 on Dec 22, 2019 17:30:18 GMT -5
If NDSU wins again this year, that will be 8 of the last 9 national titles. If they had any (foot)balls, they’d move up to FBS - like Appalachian St., Georgia Southern and others. I kind of agree but no one would ever talk about NDSU football if they were a mediocre MAC or AAC team. They get much more attention for dominating the FCS.
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 22, 2019 17:40:38 GMT -5
If they had any (foot)balls, they’d move up to FBS - like Appalachian St., Georgia Southern and others. I kind of agree but no one would ever talk about NDSU football if they were a mediocre MAC or AAC team. They get much more attention for dominating the FCS. i like what they do in europe with football, i.e. soccer. the team that wins the division title each season is moved up to the next level of play the following season. conversely, the last place team is dropped down a level each season. that way, no team dominates or is the perpetual dooormat.
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 22, 2019 18:21:33 GMT -5
NDSU football gives its citizens and bison bragging rights. well they need something living in fargo, n.d. p.s. did not know that bison were into bragging???
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Post by timholycross on Dec 22, 2019 18:56:03 GMT -5
You have to have somewhere to go to move up. The Big 10 is not inviting them and Fargo is not close to anything else. No TV market incentive there, either.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 22, 2019 20:00:47 GMT -5
If NDSU wins again this year, that will be 8 of the last 9 national titles. If they had any (foot)balls, they’d move up to FBS - like Appalachian St., Georgia Southern and others. NDSU's issue is that Fargo is a geographic outlier for any G5 conference. They wouldn't be even in the top ten candidates to fill UCONN's spot in the AAC. They would be a far eastern outpost in the Mountain West and a far western outpost in the MAC. Not to mention neither of those two conferences have the need to expand at the moment with 12 members apiece. With their home stadium being an 18,000 seat dome that is not expandable whatsoever, the Big 12 is a non-starter. Hypothetically if the Big 12 raided the MWC and added Boise and Colorado State, I could see them taking a look at North Dakota State. The truth is NDSU is in the perfect place for themselves athletically and has been quite successful. Good for them. They just need more competition in football at the FCS level. What's amazing is that they play in a conference that is an absolute meat-grinder and they run through it like Alabama ran through the SEC until this year.
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Post by moose1970 on Dec 22, 2019 20:35:50 GMT -5
If they had any (foot)balls, they’d move up to FBS - like Appalachian St., Georgia Southern and others. NDSU's issue is that Fargo is a geographic outlier for any G5 conference. They wouldn't be even in the top ten candidates to fill UCONN's spot in the AAC. They would be a far eastern outpost in the Mountain West and a far western outpost in the MAC. Not to mention neither of those two conferences have the need to expand at the moment with 12 members apiece. With their home stadium being an 18,000 seat dome that is not expandable whatsoever, the Big 12 is a non-starter. Hypothetically if the Big 12 raided the MWC and added Boise and Colorado State, I could see them taking a look at North Dakota State. The truth is NDSU is in the perfect place for themselves athletically and has been quite successful. Good for them. They just need more competition in football at the FCS level. What's amazing is that they play in a conference that is an absolute meat-grinder and they run through it like Alabama ran through the SEC until this year. ...and has been quite successful
maybe too successful? reminds me of de la salle high school in concord, ca. they had a 12 year winning streak (151 football games w/o a loss). they played all over the country v top rated high school competition. i read an article that their offense only knew how to run about 7 different plays which included both pass and run plays. i guess that they really knew how to run those plays!!!
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Post by gks on Dec 22, 2019 21:12:48 GMT -5
Possibly if the NCAA imposed a limit on the number of FBS transfers, both graduate and undergraduate, allowed on an FCS roster, big time FCS might be brought into line with the spirit of FCS play. Or, for every FBS transfer on a roster the school loses two scholarships. FBS/FSC hybrids need to be severely restricted. Let's stop this corrupt FCS charade. LoveHC What is 'corrupt' about bringing in transfers. Just because Holy Cross thinks it's evil doesn't make it so. FCS is allowed 63 scholarships. If there at this level what's the problem. It's not the rest of FCS' problem that the Patriot League has stupid, archaic rules that limit competitiveness. North Dakota State, Weber State, James Madison and others play under the same rules HC does. I Cut it out with the holier than thou rants.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 22, 2019 21:30:28 GMT -5
Possibly if the NCAA imposed a limit on the number of FBS transfers, both graduate and undergraduate, allowed on an FCS roster, big time FCS might be brought into line with the spirit of FCS play. Or, for every FBS transfer on a roster the school loses two scholarships. FBS/FSC hybrids need to be severely restricted. Let's stop this corrupt FCS charade. LoveHC Whats crazy is that North Dakota State has managed to year after year beat up on those schools that load up on transfers. The Bison have done it from within. You don't reel off the kind of run they have had by papering over your depth chart every year. I think that FBS to FCS transfers should have to sit out the same way a transfer from a Big East school to a MAAC school would have to sit out in Mens or Womens Basketball. Very simple.
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Post by gks on Dec 22, 2019 21:34:14 GMT -5
gks - I am not going to sink to the level of personal criticism of you. Relax, cool down and instead deal with the issues I raised in my post. I will not dignify your post with any further response to your post on this subject. Peace. LoveHC There was no personal criticism. There is no such thing as the "Spirit of FCS play." There are limits and rules and every school in the FCS subdivision follows them. I could argue the Patriot League, and Holy Cross, does not play by the 'Spirit' because they offer only 60 scholarship and severely limit transfers. Transfers are part of every college campus in the U.S.. As long as they qualify for a school's academic requirements there is absolutely nothing wrong with them.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 23, 2019 7:12:43 GMT -5
Obviously, we had a QB transfer leading us for most of the FCS playoff game v Monmouth so we are happy to accept qualifying transfers. We were not the only PL team to utilize a QB transfer this year. Some of the top QBs in the CAA (Towson, Villanova, JMU) were transfers of one sort or another. Given current PL rules and our own particularities it is tough for us to attract and then land FBS transfers.
One only has to briefly watch the CAA and eyeball CAA rosters, for example, to see the value of redshirts and transfers to overall FCS team quality nowadays. Just as obviously, neither practice necessarily diminishes school academic reputations (real or imagined).
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Post by CHC8485 on Dec 23, 2019 8:19:32 GMT -5
No. Being on an FBS roster does not necessarily make one an FBS talent (player). Kids want to play at the highest level possible and if given the options will take the FCS partial or preferred walk on over an FCS offer.
Once there they may find out it ain’t all it’s jacked up to be. We’re talking 18 year olds.
Should you be limited by every decision, particularly one made related to your aspirations and self image, you made when you were 18?
I think not.
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Post by gks on Dec 23, 2019 9:11:48 GMT -5
The majority of FCS schools take, or have the ability to take, unlimited transfers. It's only the Patriot League who handcuffs their teams. Complaints and concerns are headed in the wrong direction.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 23, 2019 9:24:47 GMT -5
/\ It is the redshirt rule that makes the PL unattractive to FBS schollie transfers in many cases. This applies to kids who are otherwise fully qualified for transfer admission. Tweak the oddball PL non-medical redshirt rule and you'll land a few talented (and academically qualifying) transfers.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 23, 2019 10:25:42 GMT -5
For me, make no distinctions for transfers for FBS and FCS and no artificial maximum limits.
Here’s my thinking. Whether recruited or PWO to FBS team, if they transfer to an FCS school, HC for example, how are they different talent-wise from some of our own players who were recruited by FBS schools but simply chose (correctly 😊) to go to Holy Cross?
So, in my way of thinking, any limits on the number of transfers should be an absolute number not whether or not a kid is coming from FBS vs. FCS. No need for that distinction.
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Post by breezy on Dec 23, 2019 10:40:14 GMT -5
Several years ago, I had a conversation with an assistant coach at Holy Cross shortly before he left for another school. I asked him if any players on the Holy Cross roster with substantial playing time would be transferring. His response (paraphrased) was along the lines of "Players who are playing don't transfer; it's the players who are not playing who might transfer."
I suspect this is often (not always, but often) the case -- and it is true of FBS transfers as well. An FBS player who transfers to Holy Cross transfers only because he is not getting playing time at the FBS level and wants to transfer down so he can play. To be sure, my skepticism might be unfair, but I often think that if a player is not good enough to play at the FBS level, it's very possible that he is not good enough to play at the FCS level either. There are examples both ways -- Fordham had a QB who was an FBS transfer and he was quite good; other teams (including Holy Cross) have had FBS transfers and they did not become game-changers at the FCS level.
Recruiting has risks. Some highly-rated high school players may not be able to adapt to the college game; other players who seem to be only mediocre develop and become stars. That's true at all levels. My point is that an FBS player who transfers down to FCS is not guaranteed to become a star. Each has to be evaluated on his individual merits. Getting a lot of FBS transfers does not necessarily mean that the FCS school will field a better team. In some cases it will; in other cases, it will not.
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Post by bfoley82 on Dec 23, 2019 11:11:25 GMT -5
Chesney had FBS transfers at Assumption...one of their d-linemen was from University at Buffalo
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Post by hc87 on Dec 23, 2019 11:35:19 GMT -5
NDSU is basically in this weird "sweet-spot" for FCS success....in a region where they are the only show in town, a region (Minnesota, Wisconsin etc) with very little other FCS competition for recruiting, success breeding success etc etc
They have also benefited with many other FCS perennial powers having joined FBS within the last 10-20 years as well. Thinning out their competition for a national title.
Odd situation they find themselves in...reading their board, there is a growing sense of "is that all there is?' among their fans.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 23, 2019 11:39:05 GMT -5
To breezy’s point there is no doubt that there are no guarantees regarding coaches, recruits, redshirts, and transfers.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 23, 2019 11:56:14 GMT -5
My post on NDSU was to basically explain that there are a variety of paths (recruiting area, jucos, FBS transfers, facility advantages, coaching staff etc etc) to success on the FCS level ( or any level really)...but the FCS level is kind of an odd duck level with football programs that exist so they can have a D1 hoop program to programs like NDSU which are essentially almost FBS.
HC football basically operated like the aforementioned programs(Pioneer League) from 1992-2012 with spotty success...it's starting to operate more like the NDSUs but still has some governors on that engine (no redshirting, 60 scholarships, roster limits etc).
Be interesting if nothing else, to see how this plays out in the next few years under HCBC
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Post by gks on Dec 23, 2019 12:06:40 GMT -5
Voice in the wilderness. Lift the redshirt restrictions. Increase the number of FBS transfers. What's next? These changes clearly demonstrate the slippery slope of a greater emphasis on football. What ends are served by increased emphasis on football with presumably better teams? How do these changes in policy serve the best overall interests of HC? I get it. This is an alum sports centered board. What else could one expect? And, I respect differences of opinion. For a minute, try to separate one's personal ambition from those of HC to answer my questions honestly without creating debating points based on speculation. Some may regret getting what they wished for. Think about it. LoveHC OK then if a regular student doesn't graduate in 8 semesters he should be removed from school.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 23, 2019 12:29:25 GMT -5
The 8 semesters are not necessarily 8 straight semesters from initial admission. A semester break or two does not count as a "spent" semester does it?
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Post by joe on Dec 23, 2019 12:35:20 GMT -5
My post on NDSU was to basically explain that there are a variety of paths (recruiting area, jucos, FBS transfers, facility advantages, coaching staff etc etc) to success on the FCS level ( or any level really)...but the FCS level is kind of an odd duck level with football programs that exist so they can have a D1 hoop program to programs like NDSU which are essentially almost FBS. HC football basically operated like the aforementioned programs(Pioneer League) from 1992-2012 with spotty success...it's starting to operate more like the NDSUs but still has some governors on that engine (no redshirting, 60 scholarships, roster limits etc). Be interesting if nothing else, to see how this plays out in the next few years under HCBC I say we give the 3 more schollies and allow a few non-medical redshirts and that it - we can sink or swim from that point onward. Doing anything else to attract or detract jucos, transfers, etc. etc. is all a bridge too far for HC, and a high cost/high risk/low yield proposition. Just make these two minor but potentially influential (if played correctly in recruitment efforts) modifications and let the chips fall where they may.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 23, 2019 12:46:45 GMT -5
NDSU is basically in this weird "sweet-spot" for FCS success....in a region where they are the only show in town, a region (Minnesota, Wisconsin etc) with very little other FCS competition for recruiting, success breeding success etc etc They have also benefited with many other FCS perennial powers having joined FBS within the last 10-20 years as well. Thinning out their competition for a national title. Odd situation they find themselves in...reading their board, there is a growing sense of "is that all there is?' among their fans. Here's where No Dak State's players come from--really no surprise, expected this to be a heavily Minnesotan team 36= Minnesota 17= North Dakota 16= Wisconsin 9= Illinois 8= Florida (wow, a kid from Miami or Tampa heading to the frozen, treeless tundra-but Fla produces more players than logical destinations can absorb) 5= Missouri 4= South Dakota 4= Iowa 3= Georgia Here's who scored points (Understanding that offense is only 1/2 of the game} 221= Minnesota 93= Ohio (The #1 placekicker) 72= MIssouri 54=Florida 42= Illinois 34= North Dakota 30= Wisconsin 30= Georgia 12= Iowa
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Post by hc87 on Dec 23, 2019 13:53:50 GMT -5
It's a funny level (and definitely where we belong)....as currently constructed, we are going to have a hard time competing/beating the bettah teams in the MVFC, Big Sky and CAA leagues. The best of these teams year to year are basically FBS-lite right now. I'm not saying they are doing anything untoward etc, they are just getting the very maximum (schollies, red-shirts, transfers etc) that they can at this level and many also have the advantage of being "the only show in town" i.e. either their flagship state U (Montana, Delaware etc) or have established very strong programs (NDSU, JMU, Eastern Wash etc). Tough for a Colgate or HC to go head to head with that right now.
According to Massey, the PL finished 11th out of 13 FCS conferences this year. I think with continued improvement at HC and elsewhere in the PL, the league can improve to being a "middle of the pack" 6, 7 or 8th best conference but it can't really get higher than that given our restrictions.
I'm not outright advocating for these changes here either...though they would be beneficial to the football program....I'm not entirely sold it would fundamentally change how good we could be or if it's even worth contending for an FCS playoff title in the first place. I'm not saying we shouldn't be as competitive as we can be...I just believe being competitive/beating the Ivy and the CAA teams we play in the regular season as well as winning the PL title are ample goals year to year for our football program.
Again, maybe I'll change in my belief (FCS title being the goal) if the future Chesney coached teams start really coming on etc...
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Post by purplehaze on Dec 23, 2019 14:13:28 GMT -5
All these last 5 pages or so here have nothing to do with our 11th game next season - can we return to the topic, please When someone has any info on that game, post here
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