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Post by jsherman on Dec 1, 2019 1:47:02 GMT -5
Pontification (😂) from my unique perspective:
With Patriot league's many rules, these two standout 1. Recruits (rising freshman) cannot graduate early and join in spring semester. 2. No red shirt (though medical is an option)
We've all mentioned the lackluster QB situation across the Patriot league.
It would seem to me that the Patriot league is setting up any incoming freshman at the QB position to not be able to play freshman year and because of that lose a year of eligibility. If this is the case, why would any serious talent consider the Patriot league?
And I'll admit, I'm focused on the QB.. But, holds true for all freshman in all positions. This seems to be a detrimental set of policies that will continue to hold the PL back from any true success in the FCS.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 1, 2019 5:04:29 GMT -5
The early graduating high schooler is extraordinarily rare across all of FCS. I would not expect to see that change at our level - ever.
While we see a frosh QB grab starting time here and there (I think Laffy has one now, Colgate's QB played as a frosh, and so did our very own Peter Pujols '18), the PL it is not a league that is known for attracting or fielding good out-of-the-box QB talent (for whatever reason).Â
Notwithstanding Georgetown's QB (and other exceptions now and again), the PL is not really set up to receive good transfer QB's (partially due to the redshirt rule, of course) - a schollie backup from FBS, for example.
Looking at both of these factors (recruit quality and transfer prospects) alone, QB play tends to be pretty lackluster in the PL. (Of course there are other reasons.)
I do agree concerning the non-medical redshirt. It exacerbates two great factors contributing to our weak PL QB situation.A developing/sitting frosh and a hypothetical backup schollie (FBS) transfer both lose a year. (In the latter case I am referencing the year they spent as an essentially non-playing backup schollie QB.)
(I spend a bit of time watching CAA football. This year alone one could watch superior FCS frosh (UNH, Maine), redshirt frosh (Albany), redshirt juniors (Richmond, Stony Brook), transfers (Towson), and graduate transfers (Villanova) tearing up the field. [No doubt there are differences between the FCS leagues - this just highlights the effects of such differences.] )
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Post by jsherman on Dec 1, 2019 6:47:03 GMT -5
The early graduating high schooler is extraordinarily rare across all of FCS. I would not expect to see that change at our level - ever. While we see a frosh QB grab starting time here and there (I think Laffy has one now, Colgate's QB played as a frosh, and so did our very own Peter Pujols '18), the PL it is not a league that is known for attracting or fielding good out-of-the-box QB talent (for whatever reason). Notwithstanding Georgetown's QB (and other exceptions now and again), the PL is not really set up to receive good transfer QB's (partially due to the redshirt rule, of course) - a schollie backup from FBS, for example. Looking at both of these factors (recruit quality and transfer prospects) alone, QB play tends to be pretty lackluster in the PL. (Of course there are other reasons.) I do agree concerning the non-medical redshirt. It exacerbates two great factors contributing to our weak PL QB situation.A developing/sitting frosh and a hypothetical backup schollie (FBS) transfer both lose a year. (In the latter case I am referencing the year they spent as an essentially non-playing backup schollie QB.) (I spend a bit of time watching CAA football. This year alone one could watch superior FCS frosh (UNH, Maine), redshirt frosh (Albany), redshirt juniors (Richmond, Stony Brook), transfers (Towson), and graduate transfers (Villanova) tearing up the field. [No doubt there are differences between the FCS leagues - this just highlights the effects of such differences.] ) I would imagine that the type of student that is attracted to holy Cross could in fact graduate right after fall semester of senior year (and I know this firsthand). Though, with no where to go (Patriot league), not worth the additional effort. So combine that with the no red shirt... And you've got a freshman that doesn't have the level experience with a college program necessary to start playing immediately. I personally met a number of our freshman in my visits to HC this year. There is talent there... That didn't dress for games, that wasn't on the bus, or sat on the sideline during a homegame with a baseball cap on their head instead of a helmet.
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Post by jsherman on Dec 1, 2019 6:50:27 GMT -5
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Post by hcpride on Dec 1, 2019 7:01:30 GMT -5
/\ Nothing to do with FCS football (we may be agreeing on this). I know a Big 10 early enrollee currently starting at QB. No chance he could have competed for playing time as a frosh without it.
I think many of us on the board are in favor of the non-medical redshirt. Personally, I think it supports the academic endeavors of our student athletes while allowing them to adjust to the very demanding rigors of D1 football. (It is also true that we’d field a more competitive team.)
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Post by trimster on Dec 1, 2019 8:26:42 GMT -5
How would redshirting affect the amount of scholarship money being spent on the program at any point in time.
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Post by joe on Dec 1, 2019 8:37:44 GMT -5
Non-medical redshirting would need to be bundled with increased schollies, I would think. You need to have at least 4-6 guys per year, including a QB, who is in their 5th year. How effective were Randolph and Pujals in that 5th year? Very. Need to explore a consortium/partnership with the local grad schools to accommodate certain athletes.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 1, 2019 8:37:59 GMT -5
Scholarship limits remain the same with medical and non-medical approved redshirts.
My suggestion is that healthy frosh who play 4 or less games should be considered for the non-medical redshirt.
We could play it very conservatively and follow the exact procedures we follow for our medical redshirts in terms of coursework and attendance. (No need to reinvent the wheel.)
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Post by gks on Dec 1, 2019 8:48:24 GMT -5
Just let the players use up 9 semesters to graduate. It's not that hard. These kids give a lot to the school (and yes they get a lot in return). Let them graduate the fall of what would be there 5th year, more like 4.5.
If you're going to keep scheduling FBS schools, which I agree they should, then you have to help the program out a bit.
I really can't see what the big deal is with this. Mostly stubbornness.
The bigger problem than this is the roster limits. Coaches will tell you this is huge and allows for no error in recruiting.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 1, 2019 8:57:44 GMT -5
The whole graduating HS and enrolling early thing is almost exclusively a practice at the TOP TOP P5 schools I'm pretty sure. Basically 5 star recruits where its OBVIOUS they have a very good chance to start out of the gate.
Never even heard of it happening at the UCFs, Toldedos or North Dakota States of the world...
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Post by deep Purple on Dec 1, 2019 9:12:38 GMT -5
IMO NMRS = Slippery Slope. Hope it is never adopted by the PL. Don't expect it. PL competitiveness in FCS not an issue for the PL schools nor should it be a concern. FCS is nowhere f-ball, anyway. Little/no interest nationally. Who cares? Alums care and I do respect them but do disagree. LoveHC What type of slippery slope are we talking about? As far as "No interest nationally. Who cares?" National Championship | January 11, 2020 The 2020Â NCAA Division I Football Championship Game will be held at Toyota Stadium in Frisco, Texas on Saturday, January 11, at 11:00 am CT on ABC.
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Post by hc6774 on Dec 1, 2019 9:13:13 GMT -5
I think the non medical red shirt makes sense...
It recognizes the rigors of the academic profiles of PL's schools as well as D-1 football.
In addition... is there an argument for that it's good for post graduate careers? how many 'PL pros' had 5th years?... think Mountain this year?
Per my classmate above... we might lose an Ivy or two on the schedule... to big a price to pay league wise?
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Post by joe on Dec 1, 2019 9:18:13 GMT -5
Equating non-medical redshirting with academic compromise is a manufactured sentiment with no basis in fact. One would argue we should not be competing in the FCS championship until we are on equal footing with the majority of the other schools.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 1, 2019 9:19:01 GMT -5
Just let the players use up 9 semesters to graduate. It's not that hard. These kids give a lot to the school (and yes they get a lot in return). Let them graduate the fall of what would be there 5th year, more like 4.5. If you're going to keep scheduling FBS schools, which I agree they should, then you have to help the program out a bit. I really can't see what the big deal is with this. Mostly stubbornness. The bigger problem than this is the roster limits. Coaches will tell you this is huge and allows for no error in recruiting. No doubt having an approved non-medical redshirt stick around for another semester adds a bit of costs (an additional half year to a full scholly ) and some roster headaches for a school that approves a non-medical redshirt (on a case by case basis). I tend to think the most conservative change is the one most likely to happen in the PL. Since we already have (at HC) the successful and cost effective football medical redshirt process (essentially the kid withdraws 2nd semester senior year and comes back for one semester his ‘5th’ year), it could be used as a non medical redshirt process.
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Post by joe on Dec 1, 2019 9:23:04 GMT -5
GKS I agree. Very low hanging fruit. Make the changes and move on.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 1, 2019 9:27:56 GMT -5
IMO NMRS = Slippery Slope. Hope it is never adopted by the PL. Don't expect it. PL competitiveness in FCS not an issue for the PL schools nor should it be a concern. FCS is nowhere f-ball, anyway. Little/no interest nationally. Who cares? Alums care and I do respect them but do disagree. LoveHC Why is is a slippery slope? There is nothing in the college rule book that says you must graduate in eight semesters or else you're kicked out. Similarly, if a greenshirt or a grayshirt can succeed in the classroom, what's the real problem? Are we worried merely about perceptions when each of these schools are already graduating 90% of more of students as a rule?
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Post by hcpride on Dec 1, 2019 9:30:20 GMT -5
IMO NMRS = Slippery Slope. Hope it is never adopted by the PL. Don't expect it. PL competitiveness in FCS not an issue for the PL schools nor should it be a concern. FCS is nowhere f-ball, anyway. Little/no interest nationally. Who cares? Alums care and I do respect them but do disagree. LoveHC Do you have any idea how our medical redshirt system already works?
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Post by hcpride on Dec 1, 2019 11:05:53 GMT -5
/\ I’ll take that as a ‘no’. (If yes, I was going to ask if you believe that our medical redshirt procedure is part of the slippery slope. )
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Post by matunuck on Dec 1, 2019 11:17:02 GMT -5
Guess I'm of the opinion that we can do well in sports AND maintain an excellent academic reputation. I simply do not except that it has to be one or the other. Quite frankly, what will do far more harm to HC's reputation than changes to our athletic policies is watering down our curriculum and becoming a place that stifles academic debate and discussion. Schools like Richmond and W&M (and many others) has excellent reps even though they are more flexible on athletics than HC.
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Post by purplepig on Dec 1, 2019 13:30:35 GMT -5
The non-medical red shirt is a perversion of what college is all about: academics.
The rare PL athlete who goes to the NFL doesn’t need a fifth year to show their talent just as the big-school guys don’t.
Why should the athlete bound for the work world spend an extra year at school? Where is the value to the school? Sports don’t make money in the league so even that perverse justification doesn’t exist.
Until next year ...
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Post by hc87 on Dec 1, 2019 13:53:37 GMT -5
The non-medical red shirt is a perversion of what college is all about: academics. The rare PL athlete who goes to the NFL doesn’t need a fifth year to show their talent just as the big-school guys don’t. Why should the athlete bound for the work world spend an extra year at school? Where is the value to the school? Sports don’t make money in the league so even that perverse justification doesn’t exist. Until next year ... In theory, you're right but so too was Fr Brooks in creating the PL. In general, the PL set back HC football and basketball somewhat significantly in terms of overall success, competitiveness etc...to argue otherwise is to be obtuse imo. The PL has changed/evolved ovah the years: many more sports added, more schools added, scholarships added etc...adding a red-shirt 5th year (non-medical) for football would hardly be allowing the barbarians through the gates of the PL. It's basically the de facto way of how D1 programs operate today, and yes, FCS football is D1 football. If we want to continue playing at this level in football i.e. be a solid FCS program, play FBS games etc.... granting an allowance to red-shirt, along with other modifications like roster-size etc. are things we'll need to do to stay competitive/successful.
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Post by matunuck on Dec 1, 2019 14:01:19 GMT -5
Again, how are the PL schools different from Richmond and William & Mary, for example, in terms of academic rigor or graduation rates despite UR and WM adhering to different athletic policies?
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Post by breezy on Dec 1, 2019 14:02:59 GMT -5
In my opinion, increasing the scholarship limit from 60 to the FCS limit of 63, is the most significant change that can and should be made. Increasing the roster limit from 90 to perhaps 95 would also be significant. If a nonmedical redshirt allowance is made, it could be permitted for only a limited number of players.
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Post by gks on Dec 1, 2019 14:37:45 GMT -5
I think the non medical red shirt makes sense... It recognizes the rigors of the academic profiles of PL's schools as well as D-1 football. In addition... is there an argument for that it's good for post graduate careers? how many 'PL pros' had 5th years?... think Mountain this year? Per my classmate above... we might lose an Ivy or two on the schedule... to big a price to pay league wise? Good riddance....we don't complain about their well over 100 equivalencies.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 1, 2019 15:05:46 GMT -5
Making non-medical redshirts possible in PL bylaws does not mean every team would always grant each and every possible one. (Heck, Georgetown gives 0 athletic schollies and they are permitted by PL bylaws to give 60). Or that every kid who might be eligible would even want one.
We'd be about as likely to lose (for anyone that cares) an Ivy opponent here and there over a PL non-medical redshirt program as we are over our current medical redshirt program (which is to say, not likely - again, for anyone that cares.).
Would benefit our program a bit - would have been helpful, as an example, to see a running/throwing Geoff Wade in there at QB this year (IMHO). (He played 0 games as a frosh.)
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