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Post by longsuffering on Dec 8, 2019 18:47:09 GMT -5
A few questions for the faithful who frequent these parts: If the Worcester Telegram, Boston Globe, NY Times, and/or any other periodical ran a story that the local bishop declared Alma Mater as operating outside the norms of a Catholic institution, do you think the Bishop or the college would take the bigger hit and suffer the more meaningful fallout? Do you think the Bishop would take such actions unilaterally or in concert with and the support of those to whom he answers? Do you think the Board of Trustees at Holy Cross who are charged with protecting the good name of the institution would be willing to run the risk of this situation transpiring? If it did happen, do you think the Annual Fund and other forms of giving would increase, stay the same. or take a hit? If increase/decrease, by how much? Do you think applications for Admission would increase, stay the same, or decrease? If increase/decrease, by how much? I could go on but I think these might be sufficient food for thought. I think the concept of mutual destruction that has kept nuclear weapons from being used since 1945 would apply here. A decertification of HC as a Catholic Institution would be a stink bomb that would reflect poorly on both HC and the Diocese. It would make outsiders think the Catholic Church is all fouled up, create headlines near and far that would embarrass HC and generate some praise for Bishop McManus from the right wing of the Catholic Church, but that wouldn't help his and the Church's Evangelical mission because that segment is well in hand and the Church is bleeding practicing Catholics from the broad center and left segments of American Society.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 8, 2019 21:22:29 GMT -5
Let's face it, the R.C. church in the Worcester diocese is in steep decline, and Bishop McManus is not the episcopal leader who can staunch the hemorrhaging of the faithful. On the diocese's website, the following annual statistics in the 2018-19 Diocesan Directory. 279,000 Catholics in the diocese 1,541 infant baptisms 238 Catholic marriages 3,163 deaths of Catholics In 2016, there were 8,683 births in Worcester County. Worcester County is about 35 percent Catholic, by the church's estimate. Extrapolating that percentage to the number of births, only about half the infants born to Catholics in Worcester County are being baptized. It seems to me that the diocese of Worcester is experiencing, to a lesser degree, the implosion of the R.C. church in Quebec. (There are many Catholics in Worcester of French Canadian descent.) For a description of the collapse in Quebec, see an article written ten years ago: www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/neither-practising-nor-believing-but-catholic-even-so/article4329828/Ten years ago, eighty percent of the population of Quebec said they were Catholic, only six percent went to Mass, and most of those were over 60 years of age. Given that the majority of the Worcester 'faithful' already appear to pay no heed to Bishop McManus, he gains nothing by complaining about HC not being sufficiently Catholic. If anything, it would be simply another nail in his moral superiority coffin.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Dec 8, 2019 21:27:29 GMT -5
If one is looking for a precedent, William Blatty's canon law petition to the Vatican asserting that Georgetown was insufficiently Catholic is that. See a summary: www.ncregister.com/blog/reilly/exorcist-authors-canon-law-case-against-georgetown-continuesBlatty died while the Vatican was supposedly still-considering the petition. But nothing has happened in the several years since Blatty's death, and methinks the petition was routed to the circular file, where it is as dead as he (incidental pun). As for Bishop McManus, he pointedly omitted naming Francis while throwing kudos to Benedict. The Diocese of Worcester is a suffragan diocese within the Ecclesiastical Province of Boston, the latter is headed by Sean Cardinal O'Malley, a great and good friend of Francis. As for the Fenwick Society, I haven't heard objections (on religious grounds) to their bringing a professed atheist (Heather MacDonald) on campus, a person who believes (paraphrasing lightly) that people who hold religious beliefs are fools. Stating the hypothetical, since the Diocese of Worcester is a suffragan diocese within the Ecclesiastical Province of Boston, would Cardinal O’Malley make the ultimate decision, and have the veto or override of a decision by Bishop McManus. McManus personal indiscretion of driving while influenced has impaired his moral authority regarding judgement. From reviewing his educational background, he has not learned from the common folks since grammar school. Teaching a course at one of the catholic colleges in Massachusetts will give him a different perspective of the daily dilemmas that students and faculty are now facing.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Dec 8, 2019 21:42:43 GMT -5
In so many diocese, the Bishops are out of touch in understanding the lives of the “common” people.
I was told a story that may be more of an anecdote, that a Bishop, who no longer heads that diocese was not viewed favorably at a catholic high school in his diocese. When he was planning on visiting the school, his picture would be put on display. As soon as his car left the driveway, the picture was back in storage.
The same can be said I have been told, that a second collection for the Bishop’s Appeal has been renamed in several diocese. Can anyone verify?
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 8, 2019 21:44:20 GMT -5
Our Bishop's Annual Appeal in the Newark, NJ Archdiocese had to be renamed and any reference to the bishop dropped because of actions of past "title holders" causing people to stop contributing.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 8, 2019 21:45:30 GMT -5
If one is looking for a precedent, William Blatty's canon law petition to the Vatican asserting that Georgetown was insufficiently Catholic is that. See a summary: www.ncregister.com/blog/reilly/exorcist-authors-canon-law-case-against-georgetown-continuesBlatty died while the Vatican was supposedly still-considering the petition. But nothing has happened in the several years since Blatty's death, and methinks the petition was routed to the circular file, where it is as dead as he (incidental pun). As for Bishop McManus, he pointedly omitted naming Francis while throwing kudos to Benedict. The Diocese of Worcester is a suffragan diocese within the Ecclesiastical Province of Boston, the latter is headed by Sean Cardinal O'Malley, a great and good friend of Francis. As for the Fenwick Society, I haven't heard objections (on religious grounds) to their bringing a professed atheist (Heather MacDonald) on campus, a person who believes (paraphrasing lightly) that people who hold religious beliefs are fools. Stating the hypothetical, since the Diocese of Worcester is a suffragan diocese within the Ecclesiastical Province of Boston, would Cardinal O’Malley make the ultimate decision, and have the veto or override of a decision by Bishop McManus. McManus personal indiscretion of driving while influenced has impaired his moral authority regarding judgement. From reviewing his educational background, he has not learned from the common folks since grammar school. Teaching a course at one of the catholic colleges in Massachusetts will give him a different perspective of the daily dilemmas that students and faculty are now facing. If Bishop McManus were to think I will outlive Francis, and perhaps a more 'traditional' Pope will succeed him, he may wait in vain See: From 2017, the link title says it all. www.ncronline.org/blogs/faith-and-justice/francis-stacks-college-cardinalsFrom Sept 2019, www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/distinctly-catholic/cardinal-list-latest-francis-suggests-new-breeze-blowing
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Post by CHC8485 on Dec 8, 2019 22:18:40 GMT -5
Don’t know if it was McManus who renamed it or his predecessor Bishop Reilly, but the Bishops Annual Appeal in the Worcester Diocese has been The Partners in Charity Appeal for some time now. Pretty sure it was changed at the height of revelations of sexual abuse by clergy. A fairly obvious PR move.
Bishop McManus - like too many of his brother bishops - should not so much seek to be understood, as to understand.
I have specific personal reasons for not really liking Bishop McManus, but will say he and other Bishops and clergy need to acknowledge and act like they are, as my dad said about all priests, “just a guy,” as flawed and imperfect as the rest of us. They would benefit greatly from talking directly and more personally with more of the faithful who don’t reflexively genuflect when they walk past.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 8, 2019 23:15:43 GMT -5
Bishop Reilly had more of the common touch. I noted Bishop McManus' Doctorate. It's like having the highest possible ASE certification for fixing Studebakers. Great to be an expert in something but not that relevant to most people's lives. If you have a Doctorate in intricate Church rules and process it is human nature to frame things in that light and move discussions to that realm where you are very confident and impressive in your encyclopedic knowledge, but the job at hand is to help the Church be vital in people's lives and lift them up during their arduous journey. And make sure Bingo starts on time, too.
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Post by alum on Dec 9, 2019 8:12:06 GMT -5
A few questions for the faithful who frequent these parts: If the Worcester Telegram, Boston Globe, NY Times, and/or any other periodical ran a story that the local bishop declared Alma Mater as operating outside the norms of a Catholic institution, do you think the Bishop or the college would take the bigger hit and suffer the more meaningful fallout? (I don't think that it would matter. Those who agree strongly with Bishop McManus are not likely to attend HC anyway.)Do you think the Bishop would take such actions unilaterally or in concert with and the support of those to whom he answers? (I don't think he would do it. Given his comments, I think he would rather avoid this fight so I would guess the only way he would do it would be if he was ordered to do so by the Pope.)
Do you think the Board of Trustees at Holy Cross who are charged with protecting the good name of the institution would be willing to run the risk of this situation transpiring? (Yes, it has been twenty years since the bishops adopted Ex corde Ecclesiae which HC has chosen to ignore. I can't see anything changing now.) If it did happen, do you think the Annual Fund and other forms of giving would increase, stay the same. or take a hit? If increase/decrease, by how much? (I don't believe the Annual Fund giving would change one way or the other. As far as I have seen, the Crusader name change and the Benny Liew controversy have had no effect. There is the risk, I suppose, of a bequest being pulled, but the College ought not allow itself to be blackmailed.)Do you think applications for Admission would increase, stay the same, or decrease? If increase/decrease, by how much? (I don't believe it would have any impact at all. Again, very conservative Catholics are not attending HC. The College would either ignore the bishop and continue to call itself Catholic or would use some language about being "in the Catholic tradition.)
I could go on but I think these might be sufficient food for thought.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 9, 2019 8:55:10 GMT -5
I can't recall exactly how many years ago but in the Providence Diocese, the annual collection is called "The Hope Appeal." We have been missing goals the last 2-3 years and the amount of the goal has been decreasing in recognition of the decline - and still missing the lower goals.
Like the Holy Cross Fund consistently missing its stated participation goals, they tout other aspects to put a positive slant on the news. For the HC Fund, that they raised more money (they have, thanks to fewer, larger donors), but they have to be concerned with the declining alumni number of donors.
For the Providence Hope Appeal, they say things like "for the 3rd consecutive year, the Appeal raised more than $8 million" failing to note it was something like $8.6 million 2 years before and $8.3 million the prior year.
Not to be outdone, Bishop Tobin has now come up with "Grateful for God's Providence" (note the play on words) capital fund to "celebrate" the 150th anniversary of the diocese. They rolled it out over 3 years so about a third of the diocesan parishes started each year. Ours was in the 3rd year. Bishop Tobin was smart to include that a high percentage of the collected funds roll back to the parish IF THE GOAL IS MET directly in order to ensure the pastors and the faithful have skin in the game.
Here's that announcement:
Oh, by the way, giving to the Grateful for God's Providence does not replace the Hope Appeal, it is in addition to the Hope Appeal. That was made clear.
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Post by Tom on Dec 9, 2019 9:01:32 GMT -5
However, I was wondering if he funnels money(church money from his flock?) to the politically conservative outlet, Fenwick Review. I would be stunned if the diocese gives any money directly to the Fenwick That being said, like any other student organization, The Fenwick is basically funded by the school. The Jesuits are really good about helping out in local parishes to cover sick/vacationing priests. I think there is a small stipend that goes to the school each time this happens (it would not go to the individual Jesuit). So indirectly, you could say yes
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Post by CHC8485 on Dec 9, 2019 9:46:59 GMT -5
I can't recall exactly how many years ago but in the Providence Diocese, the annual collection is called "The Hope Appeal." We have been missing goals the last 2-3 years and the amount of the goal has been decreasing in recognition of the decline - and still missing the lower goals. Like the Holy Cross Fund consistently missing its stated participation goals, they tout other aspects to put a positive slant on the news. For the HC Fund, that they raised more money (they have, thanks to fewer, larger donors), but they have to be concerned with the declining alumni number of donors. For the Providence Hope Appeal, they say things like "for the 3rd consecutive year, the Appeal raised more than $8 million" failing to note it was something like $8.6 million 2 years before and $8.3 million the prior year. Not to be outdone, Bishop Tobin has now come up with "Grateful for God's Providence" (note the play on words) capital fund to "celebrate" the 150th anniversary of the diocese. They rolled it out over 3 years so about a third of the diocesan parishes started each year. Ours was in the 3rd year. Bishop Tobin was smart to include that a high percentage of the collected funds roll back to the parish IF THE GOAL IS MET directly in order to ensure the pastors and the faithful have skin in the game. Oh, by the way, giving to the Grateful for God's Providence does not replace the Hope Appeal, it is in addition to the Hope Appeal. That was made clear. Diocese of Worcester is doing the same thing only calling the capital campaign "Legacy of Hope." And no it does not replace the Annual Fund Appeal. I have little doubt they are trying to rebuild the diocesan accounts which have been tapped due to settlements paid to victims of abuse. And if the money is going into a true endowment for specific purposes which the bishop (or any succeeding bishop) can not re-designate for use I'm OK with that. But, to illustrate one (admittedly slightly petty) reason I'm not a fan of this bishop ... 1. My wife & I have been living in the diocese at the same address for just under 30 years 2. We have been registered members of our parish for the same amount of time. 3. We have supported the diocesan partners in Charity appeal 4. We were quietly active in our parish and commissioned by the Diocese as marriage preparation ministers in 1998-ish. 5. We have subscribed to the Diocesan Newspaper for 30 years 6. We contributed as generously as we were able to the 1999 Diocesan Capital campaign Through all of that we have been Mr. & Mrs. CHC8485, so one would think we are pretty well established names in the diocese. They know we have 2 children and should know we are likely done (or at least very close to done) with college tuition payments, so we might be a good philanthropy target for this campaign. We received a "personal" letter from the Bishop asking us to prayerfully contribute to the Capital Campaign. The letter was not addressed to Mr. & Mrs. CHC8485. The letter was not addressed to Mr. CHC85. It was addressed it to me alone but had the first name wrong and left my wife completely out of it! Though I probably eventually will contribute, not exactly the type of appeal I want to respond to positively. I'd almost rather write the check and hand it directly to my pastor and say there is plenty of need here in our parish. Use it as you see fit, including for the capital campaign if meeting the target is important to the parish, but don't send it to the Bishop with my name on it. He clearly doesn't know it anyway.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 9, 2019 10:50:01 GMT -5
I have stoped contributing to the Diocese. I contribute regularly to our parish by handing my money to the pastor, since if I placed the money in the collection basket, a portion would have gone to the diocese.
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Post by Tom on Dec 9, 2019 12:00:24 GMT -5
I have stoped contributing to the Diocese. I contribute regularly to our parish by handing my money to the pastor, since if I placed the money in the collection basket, a portion would have gone to the diocese. As I understand it, unless you specifically tell the pastor that you want all of the money to stay in the parish and zero to the diocese, the parish will pay a diocesan tax whether the money was put in a collection plate or a guy's hand
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Post by hchoops on Dec 9, 2019 12:47:15 GMT -5
I have stoped contributing to the Diocese. I contribute regularly to our parish by handing my money to the pastor, since if I placed the money in the collection basket, a portion would have gone to the diocese. As I understand it, unless you specifically tell the pastor that you want all of the money to stay in the parish and zero to the diocese, the parish will pay a diocesan tax whether the money was put in a collection plate or a guy's hand I have indeed told that to the pastor, and he totally agreed.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 9, 2019 13:56:50 GMT -5
You realize, of course, that the money is still going to go to the diocese, only more from another parishioner(s). But at least you have the satisfaction that your money wasn't going there so you can sleep better at night.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 9, 2019 14:00:37 GMT -5
As our pastor told me, the diocese receives a percentage of the collection. If I do not not participate in the collection, the other parishioners would not have to make up what I do not give.
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Post by Tom on Dec 9, 2019 14:22:12 GMT -5
As our pastor told me, the diocese receives a percentage of the collection. If I do not not participate in the collection, the other parishioners would not have to make up what I do not give. That would be my understanding. The pastor could probably make it up from other gifts if he wanted, but there's not a lot of incentive for him to do so. I think this thing was fairly common back when the scandal broke in Boston
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Post by Tom on Dec 9, 2019 14:39:30 GMT -5
I can't recall exactly how many years ago but in the Providence Diocese, the annual collection is called "The Hope Appeal." We have been missing goals the last 2-3 years and the amount of the goal has been decreasing in recognition of the decline - and still missing the lower goals. Like the Holy Cross Fund consistently missing its stated participation goals, they tout other aspects to put a positive slant on the news. For the HC Fund, that they raised more money (they have, thanks to fewer, larger donors), but they have to be concerned with the declining alumni number of donors. For the Providence Hope Appeal, they say things like "for the 3rd consecutive year, the Appeal raised more than $8 million" failing to note it was something like $8.6 million 2 years before and $8.3 million the prior year. Not to be outdone, Bishop Tobin has now come up with "Grateful for God's Providence" (note the play on words) capital fund to "celebrate" the 150th anniversary of the diocese. They rolled it out over 3 years so about a third of the diocesan parishes started each year. Ours was in the 3rd year. Bishop Tobin was smart to include that a high percentage of the collected funds roll back to the parish IF THE GOAL IS MET directly in order to ensure the pastors and the faithful have skin in the game. Here's that announcement: Oh, by the way, giving to the Grateful for God's Providence does not replace the Hope Appeal, it is in addition to the Hope Appeal. That was made clear. In the Worcester capital campaign 8485 mentioned, 40 percent of everything stays in the parish up to the goal. 60 percent of all money raised over the goal stays in the parish. From the press release, it looks like Providence is following the same model. If they had to wait until the goal was met to keep a single cent in the parish, it would be a lot tougher to get anything. As you said - no skin in the game Actually, the Providence campaign looks almost identical to the Worcester one
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 9, 2019 14:43:37 GMT -5
You don't suppose bishops in adjoining dioceses talk to each other, do you?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 9, 2019 14:50:14 GMT -5
I lead the effort in our parish for the "Catholic Services Appeal"--perhaps it was known as the "Archbishop's Appeal" many years ago but it's been the CSA for as long as I can remember.
Re: the "tax" or Cathedraticum, it is my understanding that parishes pay that small percentage on all revenue, including school tuitions.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 9, 2019 14:53:57 GMT -5
Leave it to you to work for the Confederate States of America. Got a rebel battle flag hanging in the headquarters?
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Post by WCHC Sports on Dec 9, 2019 17:06:18 GMT -5
The horror: a Catholic bishop claiming he has religious authority to some degree over a Catholic college? You all may want (and I want too) Holy Cross to be an open forum of academic rigor, intellectual skepticism, and free speech. However, the Catholic Church, while charitable and helpful in many ways to many people, is never ambiguous in stating that it furthers Catholic teachings, Catholic viewpoints, and Catholic dogma. I see some surprise in earlier posts that Bishop McManus is out of touch to want those same views touted by the "Catholic" institution.
To other earlier posters who subscribe to the more pragmatic approach to the faith, or the simplest of Jesus' teachings, I offer you the two thousand years of rules, writing, scholarly review, regulations, restrictions, taxes, fees, abuse, corruption of a human/man-run enterprise rather than the thirty-three some-odd years of God on earth helping other people.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 9, 2019 17:34:31 GMT -5
Leave it to you to work for the Confederate States of America. Got a rebel battle flag hanging in the headquarters? Too funny. Let the record show that I would not support the Confederate States in any way and that my antecedents were not in this country at the time of the rebellion. My current state of residence, Kentucky, of course, was not a Confederate state.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 9, 2019 17:38:10 GMT -5
...but many Sons of Kentucky did fight for the Confederacy. And there were many Catholic Clergy who blessed the battle flags of the Confederacy and some even served as Confederate officers.
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