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Post by jsherman on Dec 8, 2019 20:47:40 GMT -5
We’ve debated. What say you?
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Post by richh on Dec 8, 2019 21:26:27 GMT -5
Partly a leftover from our Ivy Lite days and partly a sop along with schollie and roster cuts for a few that opposed schollies. Ithink it would be reasonable to allow at least a limited number of redshirts each year with a 4 year rolling avg no higher than a set max.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 8, 2019 23:20:29 GMT -5
I have zero problem with this. What, in fact, would be the major argument AGAINST this?
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 8, 2019 23:31:22 GMT -5
Football has a convenient schedule contained all in one semester, so this is less cumbersome than in Basketball where a non-medical redshirt would have to attend for a full fifth year as opposed to only one extra semester. Let's get it done so current Freshmen can utilize it if it is advantageous to.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 8, 2019 23:58:42 GMT -5
Football has a convenient schedule contained all in one semester, so this is less cumbersome than in Basketball where a non-medical redshirt would have to attend for a full fifth year as opposed to only one extra semester. Let's get it done so current Freshmen can utilize it if it is advantageous to. Not to mention football is a sport where physical maturity is at more of a premium than basketball. Plus in football you have the quarterback position where you end up wasting talent if you end up with two really good players in either the same academic year or one year apart. You can have two point guards or two centers on the floor at the same time, or at least in the rotation, not so at QB.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 9, 2019 4:15:10 GMT -5
Obviously, there would be no requirement for PL schools to add this to the pre-existing medical redshirt program - the option would be there and schools that did decide to add the non medical redshirts would do so in a case-by-case process in any case.
Georgetown, for example, has decided not to award athletic scholarships although Patriot League bylaws do permit it.
Clearly, HC could imitate its simple (and cost effective) and academically sound football medical redshirt process already in place. The student withdraws after their seventh semester and returns in the fall for their eighth semester and then graduates. The particularities might vary from one PL school to the next and might be modified from time to time - at this time the reform is called for at HC given the OOC v FBS, CAA, and HYP.
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Post by joe on Dec 9, 2019 6:58:01 GMT -5
Moves the needle forward both athletically and academically. Could be a difference maker but only if coupled with giving max schollies. I believe we should be giving 3 more schollies? Others can correct me.
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Post by alum on Dec 9, 2019 7:46:13 GMT -5
I have some questions as to how this would work:
1. Are we contemplating players attending for 9 semesters or will those who have redshirted take their eighth semester off and then return in the fall?
2. If the answer to # 1 is to take a semester off, is there a downside to them missing spring practice?
3. If the answer to #1 is to attend for nine straight semesters, doesn't that limit how many players you can have on scholarship per class? (The 60 scholarships would now be divided between essentially 5 classes, not 4.) Is that a depth problem we can afford?
4. Is there a risk that the high quality student athletes we recruit might decide after their junior year (well really they would be seniors but in their third season of playing if they redshirted as freshmen) to simply go on and graduate with their class and skip their final year of eligibility--especially if they don't see themselves as having a path to playing time? What if they make that decision after the December signing deadline?
5. Are we only considering this for football? Why not for volleyball and field hockey, too? One thing I liked about HC was that you graduated with your classmates. Will the change in that be bad for the college as a whole?
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Post by hcpride on Dec 9, 2019 8:25:52 GMT -5
I have some questions as to how this would work: 1. Are we contemplating players attending for 9 semesters or will those who have redshirted take their eighth semester off and then return in the fall? 2. If the answer to # 1 is to take a semester off, is there a downside to them missing spring practice? 3. If the answer to #1 is to attend for nine straight semesters, doesn't that limit how many players you can have on scholarship per class? (The 60 scholarships would now be divided between essentially 5 classes, not 4.) Is that a depth problem we can afford? 4. Is there a risk that the high quality student athletes we recruit might decide after their junior year (well really they would be seniors but in their third season of playing if they redshirted as freshmen) to simply go on and graduate with their class and skip their final year of eligibility--especially if they don't see themselves as having a path to playing time? What if they make that decision after the December signing deadline? 5. Are we only considering this for football? Why not for volleyball and field hockey, too? One thing I liked about HC was that you graduated with your classmates. Will the change in that be bad for the college as a whole? /\ Regarding #1, Folks are contemplating all sorts of things. The football medical redshirt system ( already in place) is off semester 8 and returning the subsequent semester (fall) and then graduating. No doubt HC coaches carefully plan for this sort of thing already, the spring practice impact is known, and we already have solved recruiting (and other) issues resulting from it. (I guess this addresses your concerns at 2-4). And this is being discussed for football only (Issue #5 - Football Topic/Forum). I'd assume HC would be selective in its application of the change to particular students. (This is not to suggest this is a likely plan if we go to the non medical redshirt...it is just one modification of a sound (financially and academically) and proven program already in use at HC that we might consider.)
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Post by alum on Dec 9, 2019 8:37:34 GMT -5
I have some questions as to how this would work: 1. Are we contemplating players attending for 9 semesters or will those who have redshirted take their eighth semester off and then return in the fall? 2. If the answer to # 1 is to take a semester off, is there a downside to them missing spring practice? 3. If the answer to #1 is to attend for nine straight semesters, doesn't that limit how many players you can have on scholarship per class? (The 60 scholarships would now be divided between essentially 5 classes, not 4.) Is that a depth problem we can afford? 4. Is there a risk that the high quality student athletes we recruit might decide after their junior year (well really they would be seniors but in their third season of playing if they redshirted as freshmen) to simply go on and graduate with their class and skip their final year of eligibility--especially if they don't see themselves as having a path to playing time? What if they make that decision after the December signing deadline? 5. Are we only considering this for football? Why not for volleyball and field hockey, too? One thing I liked about HC was that you graduated with your classmates. Will the change in that be bad for the college as a whole? /\ Regarding #1, Folks are contemplating all sorts of things. The football medical redshirt system ( already in place) is off semester 8 and returning the subsequent semester (fall) and then graduating. No doubt HC coaches carefully plan for this sort of thing already, the spring practice impact is known, and we already have solved recruiting (and other) issues resulting from it. (I guess this addresses your concerns at 2-4). And this is being discussed for football only (Issue #5 - see thread title).(This is not to suggest this is a likely plan if we go go the non medical redshirt...it is just one modification of a sound (financially and academically) plan already in use at HC that we might consider.) 1. I agree that we have solved some of these issues as it relates to the extant medical redshirt situation. The number of student athletes involved will be greater if we allow "put on twenty five pounds of bulk" redshirting as is being suggested. The impact on the team and the college will be greater. 2. Is there a TItle IX issue in offering this program to only football? I don't know the answer but it seems like an educational and athletic opportunity that is being only offered to men. 3. I really only care if we can compete in the PL and with the Ivy League. I would suggest that the PL go to the full allotment of scholarships and increase roster size before we go to non medical redshirts.
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Post by JRGNYR on Dec 9, 2019 8:42:26 GMT -5
While non-medical redshirts would certainly help, something that would perhaps have a larger effect is eliminating the arbitrary roster limit of 90. That guts a team's depth way more than not being able to redshirt players for reasons beyond medical.
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Post by richh on Dec 9, 2019 10:39:47 GMT -5
I have zero problem with this. What, in fact, would be the major argument AGAINST this? While their is philosophical blather, the bottom line is money. 60 schollies still cost the same no matter redshirting. The real issue is redshirting is not feasible with roster and schollie caps.PL has a hard enough time fielding competitive teams with the caps.Further Reduce squads by redshirting and the situation becomes dire.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 9, 2019 10:43:51 GMT -5
I have zero problem with this. What, in fact, would be the major argument AGAINST this? While their is philosophical blather, the bottom line is money. 60 schollies still cost the same no matter redshirting. The real issue is redshirting is not feasible with roster and schollie caps.PL has a hard enough time fielding competitive teams with the caps.Further Reduce squads by redshirting and the situation becomes dire. VERY good point with regards to the roster limits.
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Post by gks on Dec 9, 2019 18:42:46 GMT -5
The problem with the current rules for medical redshirts is that the player can have no contact with the team. Can't practice, can't workout, basically have to vanish for a semester. Missing spring practice is a big problem where numbers matter.
If I'm wrong on this please correct me.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 9, 2019 19:03:53 GMT -5
/\ /\ FWIW Corey Stefanik (All PL, Second Team D) , Brett Body (All PL, First Team O), and Derek Mountain (All PL, Second Team O) were medical redshirt seniors this year and certainly were very big contributors. (It is also true that PL coaches/admins have had to figure out roster impacts, spring absences, scholarships, team cohesion, academic progress, recruiting, etc. to utilize the medical redshirt players effectively. )
I mention the ongoing football medical redshirt program because some of the objections I hear to the non-medical redshirt program have already been successfully addressed. (This is not to say that the best way forward for HC under a proposed non-medical redshirt program is to simply imitate their successful medical redshirt program...it is merely one possibility.)
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Post by gks on Dec 9, 2019 19:11:59 GMT -5
/\ /\ FWIW Corey Stefanik (All PL, Second Team D) , Brett Body (All PL, First Team O), and Derek Mountain (All PL, Second Team O) were medical redshirt seniors this year and certainly were very big contributors. (It is also true that PL coaches/admins have had to figure out roster impacts, spring absences, scholarships, team cohesion, academic progress, recruiting, etc. to utilize the medical redshirt players effectively. ) I mention the ongoing football medical redshirt program because some of the objections I hear to the non-medical redshirt program have already been successfully addressed. (This is not to say that the best way forward for HC under a proposed non-medical redshirt program is to simply imitate their successful medical redshirt program...it is merely one possibility.) Correct many fifth year players have been huge contributors. Shows what an extra semester can do. I just think that making the players basically leave school for a semester is a pound-wise and penny foolish.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 9, 2019 19:38:30 GMT -5
Is it definitely still true that fifth year players have to leave for a semester?
If so, I really don't understand. Prior to scholarships, players' financial aid awards covered 8 semesters and that was it, hence why the likes of Casey Gough, Dominic Randolph, Sean Lamkin and Chris Smith all had to leave for what would've been their senior spring. In theory now that scholarships are a reality, wouldn't we just simply offer one less scholarship to the incoming freshman class to accommodate each returning redshirt senior? Isnt that how this practice would work at Villanova or William & Mary? Never heard that redshirts (medical or non) ever had to miss a semster and miss spring practice at those schools in order to play a 5th year.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 9, 2019 21:14:59 GMT -5
I know one of the 5th year senior football players. He had to leave a semester, finishes his courses this month and will graduate in May in the class of 2020.
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Post by gks on Dec 9, 2019 21:28:39 GMT -5
I know one of the 5th year senior football players. He had to leave a semester, finishes his courses this month and will graduate in May in the class of 2020. Just dumb. Athletes being held to different standards.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 9, 2019 21:31:07 GMT -5
He didn't seem to find it objectionable to come back and win a PL championship that eluded him his 4 previous years.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 10, 2019 7:28:05 GMT -5
Off the topic (a bit) but I believe our league's posture on non-medical redshirts kind of kills us in attracting quality (and otherwise qualifying) FBS scholarship players who are buried on their respective depth charts and are looking to move.
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Post by hc6774 on Dec 10, 2019 9:51:36 GMT -5
Redshirt? To what end? So that PL teams can more successfully compete on the "great stage" of FCS anonymity?Or, possibly have the opportunity to be a footnote to an occasional FBS opponent? Why? What is the motivation?HC competes in the wonderful academics-first PL. Why not appreciate HC's membership in the PL? The results of the poll on this board are not surprising in the slightest. No surprise that enthusiastic alums for whatever reason push for "upgrading" football and basketball programs, no matter the evidence to the contrary - academic compromises, loss of integrity, costs, the slippery slope and despite the obvious decline in interest in college football and b-ball among students. Whatever the motivation - school pride(?), self affirmation, etc - one rarely sees the same level of enthusiasm for greater emphasis on academics. Why? Hopefully, the PL and HC will not takes this next step, redshirting, down the slippery slope. Thus spaketh, Savanarola. Of course, we all LoveHC mm you've hit the nail... the non med red shirt is football centric; coach's decision who gets one; AD Blossom's view on this would be interesting
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Post by gks on Dec 10, 2019 12:41:39 GMT -5
Redshirt? To what end? So that PL teams can more successfully compete on the "great stage" of FCS anonymity?Or, possibly have the opportunity to be a footnote to an occasional FBS opponent? Why? What is the motivation? HC competes in the wonderful academics-first PL. Why not appreciate HC's membership in the PL? The results of the poll on this board are not surprising in the slightest. No surprise that enthusiastic alums for whatever reason push for "upgrading" football and basketball programs, no matter the evidence to the contrary - academic compromises, loss of integrity, costs, the slippery slope and despite the obvious decline in interest in college football and b-ball among students. Whatever the motivation - school pride(?), self affirmation, etc - one rarely sees the same level of enthusiasm for greater emphasis on academics. Why? Hopefully, the PL and HC will not takes this next step, redshirting, down the slippery slope. Thus spaketh, Savanarola. Of course, we all LoveHC This argument couldn't be any further from the truth. The commitment student-athletes (at any school - big, small, private, public) is leaps and bounds more than 20-30 years ago. These men and women are not normal students. As much as the Patriot League wants to tout that it is simply not true. Redshirting a semester would not only benefit the athletes athletically but also academically. One less class during the football season to be made up during an extra semester would allow for more study time and better grades. Finally, if a regular student isn't required to complete a degree in 8 semesters than an athlete should not have to. It's the same with SATs. Why is it optional for regular students but not athletes (if this has changed please correct me). The Patriot League has done more to handcuff athletic departments than any league in recent memory, and many of the member schools do a fine job of that on their own.
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Post by JRGNYR on Dec 10, 2019 14:31:25 GMT -5
Redshirt? To what end? So that PL teams can more successfully compete on the "great stage" of FCS anonymity?Or, possibly have the opportunity to be a footnote to an occasional FBS opponent? Why? What is the motivation? HC competes in the wonderful academics-first PL. Why not appreciate HC's membership in the PL? The results of the poll on this board are not surprising in the slightest. No surprise that enthusiastic alums for whatever reason push for "upgrading" football and basketball programs, no matter the evidence to the contrary - academic compromises, loss of integrity, costs, the slippery slope and despite the obvious decline in interest in college football and b-ball among students. Whatever the motivation - school pride(?), self affirmation, etc - one rarely sees the same level of enthusiasm for greater emphasis on academics. Why? Hopefully, the PL and HC will not takes this next step, redshirting, down the slippery slope. Thus spaketh, Savanarola. Of course, we all LoveHC This argument couldn't be any further from the truth. The commitment student-athletes (at any school - big, small, private, public) is leaps and bounds more than 20-30 years ago. These men and women are not normal students. As much as the Patriot League wants to tout that it is simply not true. Redshirting a semester would not only benefit the athletes athletically but also academically. One less class during the football season to be made up during an extra semester would allow for more study time and better grades. Finally, if a regular student isn't required to complete a degree in 8 semesters than an athlete should not have to. It's the same with SATs. Why is it optional for regular students but not athletes (if this has changed please correct me). According to NCAA rules, to be academically eligible for athletic-related aid you must have an SAT or ACT score. Not sure about nuances to this since I don't live in the compliance world but it's pretty well known that in order to receive any athletic aid, you must have a standardized test score. Not an HC policy, but an NCAA policy. The Patriot League has done more to handcuff athletic departments than any league in recent memory, and many of the member schools do a fine job of that on their own. The PL doesn't arbitrarily institute rules and then force the schools to abide by them. The schools themselves created the parameters and then ask the league to hold each other accountable. Important distinction.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 10, 2019 16:04:28 GMT -5
mm67, my gut feeling is that redshirting is certainly beneficial for the player and team and neutral academically.
That said, I am for the current status quo, redshirting for medical reasons but not non-medical.
True, HC is an academics first educational institution but allowing a legitimately injured athlete an opportunity to play his/her full eligibility is probably very rewarding for the student-athlete. Most college athletes love their sport and after their collegiate playing time is over, that’s the end of the road.
The football Class of 1970, for the most part, lost their opportunity to finish their careers on the gridiron prematurely and totally unexpectedly.
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