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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 11, 2019 10:07:27 GMT -5
Lowder’s absence is a killer for this team. He’s really talented and a fierce competitor. Last night, other than AB, not a lot of guys playing with any urgency or energy. Still have to beat Mass-Boston, but we can’t afford to be without Lowder for much longer. What did Butler do last night that was so much better than Joe P?
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Post by HC92 on Dec 11, 2019 10:15:08 GMT -5
Lowder’s absence is a killer for this team. He’s really talented and a fierce competitor. Last night, other than AB, not a lot of guys playing with any urgency or energy. Still have to beat Mass-Boston, but we can’t afford to be without Lowder for much longer. What did Butler do last night that was so much better than Joe P? Nothing. Definitely should have included Pridgen. I joked after the game that I hoped Pridgen didn’t wind up with a back injury from carrying the team on his back all night.
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Post by dharry13 on Dec 11, 2019 10:18:50 GMT -5
In regard to asking the question is he over his head? I agree with a lot of poster saying it's too early.
But I don't understand why people get up in arms when the question is asked regarding accountability. Nelson inherited a tough roster. No doubt about that.
But they are still scholarship kids - many of which did at least have another offer or two, so unless I'm mistaken we'd all consider them scholarship players - for those who are on scholarship. The incoming freshman many people were high on - Lowder and Pridgen have proven that and hopefully Wade will as well.
The others (Butler, Faw, Niego at least) played fairly decent sized roles in D1 wins in the past 2 seasons.
So far in their first 10 games they have endured two historical losses. This one to UMASS-Boston - I would argue is the worse loss in the last 29 years (my freshman year was 90-91) that I can remember. The second - the most lopsided loss in the history of the program to Northeastern (not Duke, not North Carolina).
I'll be the first to say I like the hire. I like the idea of going younger. I like the fact that he signed 3 kids already in a short amount of time, all with multiple scholarship offers.
But to get angry for asking the question after two of the most historical losses in the history of program in a 3 week span that's been in existence for a long long time - I think it's perfectly fine to ask that question.
If I'm a betting man I'll put my money on Nelson to turn it around because of the level that he played at, his high basketball IQ watching him play on TV, and his pedigree as an assistant. But - it's a fair question to ask.
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Post by lou on Dec 11, 2019 10:45:43 GMT -5
In other news, Bryant over Fordham
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 11, 2019 11:06:08 GMT -5
The others (Butler, Faw, Niego at least) played fairly decent sized roles in D1 wins in the past 2 seasons. Good post, harry. Agree with many of your points. The problem is, many of the guys on this team -- while you could consider them legitimate Division I players -- are not guys that can carry a team. Lowder and Priden appear to be guys who can be focal points, but they are freshmen. The players listed above are better served as role players. They can come off the bench to provide some instant offense, but to expect them to play 25+ mins and consistently produce may not be possible. Nelson, no doubt, has a very poor roster, but it's also fair to question his coaching decisions within a game. Whether the talent is there or not, we can question in-game moves.
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Post by possum on Dec 11, 2019 11:13:28 GMT -5
Please no redshirt for any upperclassmen we need to turn this roster over as quickly as possible.
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Post by Ray on Dec 11, 2019 11:17:54 GMT -5
If I'm a betting man I'll put my money on Nelson to turn it around because of the level that he played at, his high basketball IQ watching him play on TV, and his pedigree as an assistant. But - it's a fair question to ask. The reason the question is NOT a fair one to ask is because we don't have nearly enough information to answer it.
Last year's team was pretty lousy, and the top four players from that team didn't come back. On top of that, our top freshman is out with injury. Nelson's using a walk-on point guard and a bunch of other guys who are completely in the dark about how to win at this level.
Can we draw any conclusions on Nelson based on whether this year ends 4-27 or 9-22 or 14-17? I don't think so. Heck, John Wooden himself probably couldn't get this group to 14-17.
The most important things happening for this program right now are not on game days. Recruiting is monumentally important, and coaching up the players/establishing a culture in practice is monumentally important.
Really, the only measuring stick that matters is how much better we look in two years. Come December 2021, we better be talking about a PL title team in the making. If we're still lost in the woods at that point, sure, let's talk about Nelson. But it's completely pointless right now. Nobody has enough information to offer any kind of informed opinion. And even if you think you do, it doesn't matter. Nelson is absolutely going to be coaching this team two years from now. Suggesting otherwise is a waste of keystrokes.
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Post by dharry13 on Dec 11, 2019 11:24:09 GMT -5
We agree to disagree. Anyone in a D1 position should always be evaluated at any point in their tenure. 2 of the most historical losses in the programs history in the first 10 games doesn't warrant a question?
Yes you are correct - We will most likely all being singing a different tune in hopefully what will feel like a very short period of time. It's not pointless. Losing to UMASS Boston isn't pointless. It's embarrassing and pathetic. It's ok to say those words. It doesn't change anything, but those words are ok to be spoken/written.
Let's not just cheer the victories and sweep the horrendous losses under the rug. Heck - I guarantee if told Nelson those same sentiments he would respond that alum should be pissed. He'd probably be in that camp. Which is why I like the hire.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 11, 2019 11:30:45 GMT -5
There are many questions that could be asked. To start with a thread asking whether a brand new head coach - only 1/3 of the way into his first season - is "over his head" is not a question that needs to be asked at this point with so little factual data to use to provide an answer. As to specific coaching decisions, they can always be questioned and we can expect to see people disagree about most.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 11, 2019 11:41:37 GMT -5
But they are still scholarship kids - many of which did at least have another offer or two, so unless I'm mistaken we'd all consider them scholarship players - for those who are on scholarship. The incoming freshman many people were high on - Lowder and Pridgen have proven that and hopefully Wade will as well. The others (Butler, Faw, Niego at least) played fairly decent sized roles in D1 wins in the past 2 seasons. I would question the idea that they’re all scholarship kids. Was there one successful program that offered anyone in the Soph-Senior classes? Regarding your last sentence, another way to put it would be: The others played fairly decent sized roles on a team that finished in last place in an awful PL last year.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 11, 2019 11:46:13 GMT -5
Ray, while I've posted this before, while at Fitton baseball field for a PL baseball tournament, I met and spoke with Bill Carmody after we were graduating Malachi Alexander, Robert Champion, Matt Husek and Anthony Thompson and asked him if he was concerned about losing the seniors from the team and replacing them with unproven freshmen. His response was something like "if we had won more games than we lost, I might be concerned." [the original "addition by subtraction?"] Considering those guys were the nucleus of the one PL tournament championship his teams won, it struck me as a little unappreciative. I guess those guys were Milan's guys and he figured his recruits were going to be better than what he was losing.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 11, 2019 11:48:42 GMT -5
I’m seeing some troubling SK 2.0 trends: the results, the evident lack of on-court identity/system, and the time-wasting assistant coach huddle during timeouts. Hundreds of teams have the same sort of coaches' huddle at the start of timeouts. That includes some very successful ones. Let's assume BN followed this pattern when HC called timeout w/under 30 seconds to go. Wasn't watching, but probably did. What happened? Pridgen went strong to the hoop, under control; put up a good shot with an appropriate amount of time left, enough to get an offensive rebound or two. The shot missed. Butler got the rebound, had a very makeable shot, and missed. UMB got the rebound but didn't have enough time to do anything threatening. I don't see anything done incorrectly. Sometimes (well, in our case, too many times!!), the ball doesn't go in.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 11, 2019 12:02:18 GMT -5
My overall concern here is that Nelson is a "fish out of water" at HC currently given his background in mostly major college hoop both as a player and coach. This is also his 1st head coaching job and he has a very young staff mostly to assist him right now.
Nothing can be done about these issues this season obviously....just positing that he may be in "ovah his head" right now and may need some help in different ways moving forward.
I hope he does well here but given the way we have played this year so far, I think it's fair to question how we have looked at times this season.
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Post by Ray on Dec 11, 2019 12:04:35 GMT -5
We agree to disagree. Anyone in a D1 position should always be evaluated at any point in their tenure. 2 of the most historical losses in the programs history in the first 10 games doesn't warrant a question? Yes you are correct - We will most likely all being singing a different tune in hopefully what will feel like a very short period of time. It's not pointless. Losing to UMASS Boston isn't pointless. It's embarrassing and pathetic. It's ok to say those words. It doesn't change anything, but those words are ok to be spoken/written. Let's not just cheer the victories and sweep the horrendous losses under the rug. Heck - I guarantee if told Nelson those same sentiments he would respond that alum should be pissed. He'd probably be in that camp. Which is why I like the hire. Nice strawman. Nowhere did I advocate sweeping this under the rug. I'm sure you're right that Nelson is pissed. And of course he should be, as should the players. I was thinking as I went to bed last night that I was hoping Nelson either called a late-night practice right after the game, or at 6am today.
Questions about what's wrong/what can be done differently are of course appropriate. But the root of this thread is a question about whether Nelson is in over his head, and/or (implicitly) is the right person for this job. That question is no more answerable today than it was yesterday. That's the point I'm making, not the one you're ascribing to me above.
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Post by Tom on Dec 11, 2019 12:05:18 GMT -5
It was obvious the team would be bad (given player quality) and the chances of him going .500 in the PL were zero. Have to assume everybody knew that. (Of course that doesn't mean we won't suffer some particularly ugly losses that might lead one to question coaching decisions.) I just looked back at the prediction poll. Of people who bothered to break the win projection down, 7 of 16 predicted .500 or better in the PL. The median total wins was the 12-14 category. At least seven people thought the chances were better than zero
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Post by bison137 on Dec 11, 2019 12:13:31 GMT -5
Nice strawman. Nowhere did I advocate sweeping this under the rug. I'm sure you're right that Nelson is pissed. And of course he should be, as should the players. I was thinking as I went to bed last night that I was hoping Nelson either called a late-night practice right after the game, or at 6am today.
That might have been a good idea, but NCAA rules don't allow a practice after a game. Having one at 6 AM would be OK however. (Practices starting at 5 AM or later are OK as long as the player had eight hours of down-time since the game/practice the day before.)
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 11, 2019 12:27:06 GMT -5
My overall concern here is that Nelson is a "fish out of water" at HC currently given his background in mostly major college hoop both as a player and coach. I thought this as well when I learned he was the hire. Coaching stops have been Marshall, Arkansas, Drake, Ball State, and Marquette. Ostensibly, Nelson never recruited and/or coached a kid at these schools as he currently is at Holy Cross. This is why I thought it was really smart to bring RJ onto the staff -- someone who can help navigate the HC admin, Academic Index, can relate to the HC student-athlete, etc. I can live with losses, insofar we are able to see marked improvement throughout the season in the team's play.
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Post by Ray on Dec 11, 2019 12:33:08 GMT -5
Nice strawman. Nowhere did I advocate sweeping this under the rug. I'm sure you're right that Nelson is pissed. And of course he should be, as should the players. I was thinking as I went to bed last night that I was hoping Nelson either called a late-night practice right after the game, or at 6am today.
That might have been a good idea, but NCAA rules don't allow a practice after a game. Having one at 6 AM would be OK however. (Practices starting at 5 AM or later are OK as long as the player had eight hours of down-time since the game/practice the day before.)
Kids are so soft these days! I remember George Blaney bringing the team back from a bad loss at UNH in 1990 or 1991 and dragging them right into Hart for a late-night practice.
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Post by gks on Dec 11, 2019 13:04:46 GMT -5
My overall concern here is that Nelson is a "fish out of water" at HC currently given his background in mostly major college hoop both as a player and coach. This is also his 1st head coaching job and he has a very young staff mostly to assist him right now. Nothing can be done about these issues this season obviously....just positing that he may be in "ovah his head" right now and may need some help in different ways moving forward. I hope he does well here but given the way we have played this year so far, I think it's fair to question how we have looked at times this season. Hiring a coach with a PL background does nothing. Keeps you in the same rut. Got to think outside the box (like with Chesney). Need a guy that can sell the school and steal some higher-level recruits. Right now men's hoops keep getting the same kind of player....a PL player. Reach higher. Get to a kid's parents. This program needs a kid like Rob Feaster. Borderline P5 player who was a steal for HC. Haven't had any players like that in a long time (I'm not counting the Ralph years. I think the administration was afraid of him and got his way). It's going to take a long time......
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Post by timholycross on Dec 11, 2019 13:12:33 GMT -5
My overall concern here is that Nelson is a "fish out of water" at HC currently given his background in mostly major college hoop both as a player and coach. This is also his 1st head coaching job and he has a very young staff mostly to assist him right now. Nothing can be done about these issues this season obviously....just positing that he may be in "ovah his head" right now and may need some help in different ways moving forward. I hope he does well here but given the way we have played this year so far, I think it's fair to question how we have looked at times this season. Hiring a coach with a PL background does nothing. Keeps you in the same rut. Got to think outside the box (like with Chesney). Need a guy that can sell the school and steal some higher-level recruits. Right now men's hoops keep getting the same kind of player....a PL player. Reach higher. Get to a kid's parents. This program needs a kid like Rob Feaster. Borderline P5 player who was a steal for HC. Haven't had any players like that in a long time (I'm not counting the Ralph years. I think the administration was afraid of him and got his way). It's going to take a long time...... Might not have gotten in Milan's way that much, either. Maybe we wouldn't want him as the cook, but his "shopping for the groceries" sure went better.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 11, 2019 13:24:19 GMT -5
My overall concern here is that Nelson is a "fish out of water" at HC currently given his background in mostly major college hoop both as a player and coach. This is also his 1st head coaching job and he has a very young staff mostly to assist him right now. Nothing can be done about these issues this season obviously....just positing that he may be in "ovah his head" right now and may need some help in different ways moving forward. I hope he does well here but given the way we have played this year so far, I think it's fair to question how we have looked at times this season. As always, your insight is like a laser beam.😋 SK had no background in a PL environment and while MB had a mid major background it was in a different recruiting environment. Andy Sachs understood the PL environment and how to win in the PL. I've got enough lament over letting him get away to post in two threads about it, which I have. I think Coach Nelson will figure out how to win in the PL, but it's a learning process.
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Post by HC92 on Dec 11, 2019 13:27:16 GMT -5
I am firmly in the give Nelson time camp.
However, it’s inexcusable that we were settling for Yeutter 3 pointers on two key possessions down the stretch when the tallest guy on the floor for our opponent was about 6’3”.
On the last play of regulation, I was seriously hoping for a cameo from Sandy for an alley-oop. With a half-decent pass, there’s no way UMB could have stopped it given the personnel on the floor.
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Post by lou on Dec 11, 2019 13:44:51 GMT -5
Was thinking about Sandy also, and I'm not even going to mention that I thought Lovisolo could have helped us last night
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Post by HC92 on Dec 11, 2019 14:22:25 GMT -5
Was thinking about Sandy also, and I'm not even going to mention that I thought Lovisolo could have helped us last night Lovisolo mentioned to a few of us after the game that he’s going to Union College next semester.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Dec 11, 2019 14:22:53 GMT -5
I dunno.....not really a "PL guy" given his background, never a head coach before etc... just sayin'...I know it's early in his regime, but the early results have to be seen as troubling. Not rooting against the kid...any thoughts on what he should do, focus on etc. moving forward? This is your thing, right? To throw something out, not really say you believe it, but then again not really say you don't. As someone who says they have been a coach, you sure don't seem to like many coaches.
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