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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 11, 2019 14:36:54 GMT -5
It is what it is, 94.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 11, 2019 14:45:21 GMT -5
I dunno.....not really a "PL guy" given his background, never a head coach before etc... just sayin'...I know it's early in his regime, but the early results have to be seen as troubling. Not rooting against the kid...any thoughts on what he should do, focus on etc. moving forward? This is your thing, right? To throw something out, not really say you believe it, but then again not really say you don't. As someone who says they have been a coach, you sure don't seem to like many coaches. I would say it's more of the educator in me actually...toss something out there to discuss back and forth. Some may call it trolling lol, I'll go with the Socratic method. Aside from Gilmore, who evolved into a very toxic coach at HC imo, I haven't been hard on coaches here...and I'm not being "hard" on Nelson here....I do think he may be "in ovah his head" in many ways for reasons out of his control (cupboard bare, players hurt etc) but I think the situation right now warrants reflection on what he is doing either in practice or games. I realize this is a lost season but he is also being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, working in a multiple million dollar facility and we are losing by 60+ points and to bad D3 teams...he's not coaching a CYO or Rec team, there has to be some real accountiblity here. Hindsight is 20-20 as always...but my suggestion moving forward is that we should hire an experienced, older coach ala Blaney (not George specifically, but someone of that ilk) in the off-season to help Nelson transition into a D1 head coach, give guidance where needed etc.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 11, 2019 15:09:40 GMT -5
You go from stating you’re “not being hard on Nelson” to then saying he needs to hire an older coach in the offseason to help him run his program.
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Post by lou on Dec 11, 2019 15:10:26 GMT -5
Was thinking about Sandy also, and I'm not even going to mention that I thought Lovisolo could have helped us last night Lovisolo mentioned to a few of us after the game that he’s going to Union College next semester. Yes I knew that ...
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Post by hc87 on Dec 11, 2019 15:16:39 GMT -5
You go from stating you’re “not being hard on Nelson” to then saying he needs to hire an older coach in the offseason to help him run his program. Semantics...I think Nelson might ultimately be a good coach, given the right resources/help....I am categorically not saying he is a "bad coach" right now....I am saying he is a young/inexperienced head coach, playing in a league/level that he really has no comfort level (for lack of a bettah phrase) with yet. Hopefully things improve as this season progresses...my suggestion for hiring a more seasoned, veteran coach to assist him is just a suggestion to help his hopefully long, successful tenure here at HC.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 11, 2019 18:53:50 GMT -5
This is your thing, right? To throw something out, not really say you believe it, but then again not really say you don't. As someone who says they have been a coach, you sure don't seem to like many coaches. Hindsight is 20-20 as always...but my suggestion moving forward is that we should hire an experienced, older coach ala Blaney (not George specifically, but someone of that ilk) in the off-season to help Nelson transition into a D1 head coach, give guidance where needed etc. Bringing John Wooden back from the dead to be an assistant at HC would not help us if we have to continue to start 4 guys who have a ceiling of D1 bench players (being generous). At this point, Nelson just needs to continue to recruit at a high level while trying to fix a broken culture in the program. If he can keep Pridgen & Lowder on board, start to turn around the culture, free up 1-2 more scholarships for guys like that new kid we offered from Memphis, and put us in position for another deep and talented recruiting class next year, this will be a successful season for Nelson. Judging him based on how he is deploying a roster of guys who he didn't recruit, who very few other D1 coaches actually did recruit, and who finished in last place in an awful PL last year just doesn't make much sense to me. Hold him accountable at some level for poor results? Sure. But, it's far too soon to say that he needs to make any type of drastic changes in his approach to turn the program around.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Dec 11, 2019 19:07:29 GMT -5
This is your thing, right? To throw something out, not really say you believe it, but then again not really say you don't. As someone who says they have been a coach, you sure don't seem to like many coaches. I would say it's more of the educator in me actually...toss something out there to discuss back and forth. Some may call it trolling lol, I'll go with the Socratic method. Aside from Gilmore, who evolved into a very toxic coach at HC imo, I haven't been hard on coaches here...and I'm not being "hard" on Nelson here....I do think he may be "in ovah his head" in many ways for reasons out of his control (cupboard bare, players hurt etc) but I think the situation right now warrants reflection on what he is doing either in practice or games. I realize this is a lost season but he is also being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, working in a multiple million dollar facility and we are losing by 60+ points and to bad D3 teams...he's not coaching a CYO or Rec team, there has to be some real accountiblity here. Hindsight is 20-20 as always...but my suggestion moving forward is that we should hire an experienced, older coach ala Blaney (not George specifically, but someone of that ilk) in the off-season to help Nelson transition into a D1 head coach, give guidance where needed etc. How does posting on Facebook in response to the game score help? Is that the educator in you? Feel like that helps advance the dialogue? I would love to hear how you actually support the programs and our alma mater...cant imagine it's with your treasure, time nor talent.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Dec 11, 2019 19:43:47 GMT -5
If only we had joined da Big East 94, we wouldn't be in dis mess. But whatevah... dat ship has sailed...
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Post by hc87 on Dec 11, 2019 21:12:08 GMT -5
I would say it's more of the educator in me actually...toss something out there to discuss back and forth. l it trolling lol, I'll go with the Socratic method. Aside from Gilmore, who evolved into a very toxic coach at HC imo, I haven't been hard on coaches here...and I'm not being "hard" on Nelson here....I do think he may be "in ovah his head" in many ways for reasons out of his control (cupboard bare, players hurt etc) but I think the situation right now warrants reflection on what he is doing either in practice or games. I realize this is a lost season but he is also being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars, working in a multiple million dollar facility and we are losing by 60+ points and to bad D3 teams...he's not coaching a CYO or Rec team, there has to be some real accountiblity here. Hindsight is 20-20 as always...but my suggestion moving forward is that we should hire an experienced, older coach ala Blaney (not George specifically, but someone of that ilk) in the off-season to help Nelson transition into a D1 head coach, give guidance where needed etc. How does posting on Facebook in response to the game score help? Is that the educator in you? Feel like that helps advance the dialogue? I would love to hear how you actually support the programs and our alma mater...cant imagine it's with your treasure, time nor talent. Seriously, what is your problem? If you're not fond of my thoughts, just ignore my posts. Easy, peasey.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 11, 2019 21:40:19 GMT -5
Hindsight is 20-20 as always...but my suggestion moving forward is that we should hire an experienced, older coach ala Blaney (not George specifically, but someone of that ilk) in the off-season to help Nelson transition into a D1 head coach, give guidance where needed etc. Bringing John Wooden back from the dead to be an assistant at HC would not help us if we have to continue to start 4 guys who have a ceiling of D1 bench players (being generous). At this point, Nelson just needs to continue to recruit at a high level while trying to fix a broken culture in the program. If he can keep Pridgen & Lowder on board, start to turn around the culture, free up 1-2 more scholarships for guys like that new kid we offered from Memphis, and put us in position for another deep and talented recruiting class next year, this will be a successful season for Nelson. Judging him based on how he is deploying a roster of guys who he didn't recruit, who very few other D1 coaches actually did recruit, and who finished in last place in an awful PL last year just doesn't make much sense to me. Hold him accountable at some level for poor results? Sure. But, it's far too soon to say that he needs to make any type of drastic changes in his approach to turn the program around. We shall see...it is ultimately the "Jimmys&Joes" that bring about success more than anything. I just think an experienced coach would help Nelson in a variety of ways...he probably has the toughest D1 job in America right now given the talent he has, expectations from a smallish but committed fanbase etc etc....an older coach who has "seen it all, been around the block"...could be very helpful for him imo...my .02.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 11, 2019 21:44:18 GMT -5
Do you mean a coach like the men under whom he coached for so many years and from whom he learned so much of what he already knows?
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Post by hc87 on Dec 11, 2019 22:04:03 GMT -5
Believe me, I'm not saying I have the definitive answer (s) to the situation...I actually feel bad for Nelson...he's in his 1st head coaching year, in sort of unknown terrain (to him) in a league that is foreign to him in terms of culture, level of play etc, with mostly a staff with very little experience themselves overall....I just think an older, father figure type coach would be very helpful for him....and no, I am not advocating for this position myself
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 12, 2019 6:27:34 GMT -5
Hindsight is 20-20 as always...but my suggestion moving forward is that we should hire an experienced, older coach ala Blaney (not George specifically, but someone of that ilk) in the off-season to help Nelson transition into a D1 head coach, give guidance where needed etc. Bringing John Wooden back from the dead to be an assistant at HC would not help us if we have to continue to start 4 guys who have a ceiling of D1 bench players (being generous). At this point, Nelson just needs to continue to recruit at a high level while trying to fix a broken culture in the program. If he can keep Pridgen & Lowder on board, start to turn around the culture, free up 1-2 more scholarships for guys like that new kid we offered from Memphis, and put us in position for another deep and talented recruiting class next year, this will be a successful season for Nelson. Judging him based on how he is deploying a roster of guys who he didn't recruit, who very few other D1 coaches actually did recruit, and who finished in last place in an awful PL last year just doesn't make much sense to me. Hold him accountable at some level for poor results? Sure. But, it's far too soon to say that he needs to make any type of drastic changes in his approach to turn the program around. Just to be clear - are you saying that you would be ok with CBN yanking the scholarships of rising seniors AB, KC, CN, and/or MF, after they chose to stay? If he were to do that, I would lose a lot of respect for CBN, especially if he doesn't at least try to tweak his system/philosophy (to get more out of them). Since you didn't mention them by name as having value, I also assume you have concluded RWade, BV and MH are not capable of being competent D-1 players either. Again, if CBN is going to be the coach we think/want him to be, imho he should be able to get a lot more out of them down the road.
If any of these kids mentioned had bailed when CBN was named coach (and freed up more of those slots that you are lusting for) I would like to think that you wouldn't have taken any cheap shots at them; you know, question their character. I tend to doubt it though.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 12, 2019 7:02:00 GMT -5
Running off multiple players to free up scholarships would not be tolerated in the Holy Cross culture (AD and president I am sure would not allow). I am sure BBC could not be actually suggesting that. Nelson is not about to bring in RW or any other "senior advisors" any more than Milan Brown did. Presumably he developed a healthy enough ego when he was a player and then as an assistant for high level head coaches that he believes he knows what he is doing. I am sure that he's probably been on the phone with some of his mentors but if anyone thinks he's going to bring RW (or Carmody! ) for remedial coaching training, I think you've dialed a wrong number. That said, I don't buy that these are Carmody's guys and we cannot expect him to improve the on-court "product" and actually win games. As I've posted before, we've had a string of coaches who think their way is the only way regardless of the talent on the team. Perhaps only Willard of the last 4 coaches has been flexible enough to try to fit the game plan to the players rather than the other way around. Hopefully, Brett will show some of that flexibility rather than go down the Milan/Bill route. We shouldn't be asked to wait 4 years "when he has his own guys" in order to see significant improvement in results. Northeastern game, UMass Boston? No excuses.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 12, 2019 7:07:07 GMT -5
Well, I hope bbc responds with his thoughts, cause I'm not sure how you "free up" scholarships without an existing scholarship player leaving.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 12, 2019 11:04:50 GMT -5
Bringing John Wooden back from the dead to be an assistant at HC would not help us if we have to continue to start 4 guys who have a ceiling of D1 bench players (being generous). At this point, Nelson just needs to continue to recruit at a high level while trying to fix a broken culture in the program. If he can keep Pridgen & Lowder on board, start to turn around the culture, free up 1-2 more scholarships for guys like that new kid we offered from Memphis, and put us in position for another deep and talented recruiting class next year, this will be a successful season for Nelson. Judging him based on how he is deploying a roster of guys who he didn't recruit, who very few other D1 coaches actually did recruit, and who finished in last place in an awful PL last year just doesn't make much sense to me. Hold him accountable at some level for poor results? Sure. But, it's far too soon to say that he needs to make any type of drastic changes in his approach to turn the program around. Just to be clear - are you saying that you would be ok with CBN yanking the scholarships of rising seniors AB, KC, CN, and/or MF, after they chose to stay? If he were to do that, I would lose a lot of respect for CBN, especially if he doesn't at least try to tweak his system/philosophy (to get more out of them). Since you didn't mention them by name as having value, I also assume you have concluded RWade, BV and MH are not capable of being competent D-1 players either. Again, if CBN is going to be the coach we think/want him to be, imho he should be able to get a lot more out of them down the road.
If any of these kids mentioned had bailed when CBN was named coach (and freed up more of those slots that you are lusting for) I would like to think that you wouldn't have taken any cheap shots at them; you know, question their character. I tend to doubt it though.
I am saying that HCBN should make it very clearly known what the expectations are to be a Division 1 basketball player receiving a $60K+ per year scholarship at Holy Cross, and that what was allowed to fly under the disengaged previous regime is no longer acceptable. If individuals do not want to rise up to meet these new expectations, it should not be HCBN's responsibility to lower his expectations to make them happy. Simple as that.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 12, 2019 11:37:01 GMT -5
That said, I don't buy that these are Carmody's guys and we cannot expect him to improve the on-court "product" and actually win games. As I've posted before, we've had a string of coaches who think their way is the only way regardless of the talent on the team. Perhaps only Willard of the last 4 coaches has been flexible enough to try to fit the game plan to the players rather than the other way around. Hopefully, Brett will show some of that flexibility rather than go down the Milan/Bill route. We shouldn't be asked to wait 4 years "when he has his own guys" in order to see significant improvement in results. I don't think the issue is that these are "Carmody's guys" -- I think the issue is that we just simple don't have enough legit D1 talent. RW inherited a team that had performed poorly, but had guys like Curry, Pegues, Seravalle, Sankes, Whearty, and Wilson, and was able to go out and get Szatko for his first year. These were all pieces that he could build around. Milan inherited guys like Keister, Beinert, Cavataio, Brown, Evans, Stevens, Beans, and Dudzinksi -- all guys with very impressive offers coming out of high school (indicating that they had demand as D1 talent). Aside from Lowder and Pridgen, and maybe Wade + Hargris, Nelson does not really have any pieces to work with assuming he is trying to implement a style that requires more than just shooting. Even with those players, RW still went 10-18 in his first year. Nelson winning 6-8 games this year (2-4 less than RW) with a SIGNIFICANTLY worse roster does not strike me as something to be overly concerned about.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 12, 2019 12:11:32 GMT -5
Just to be clear - are you saying that you would be ok with CBN yanking the scholarships of rising seniors AB, KC, CN, and/or MF, after they chose to stay? If he were to do that, I would lose a lot of respect for CBN, especially if he doesn't at least try to tweak his system/philosophy (to get more out of them). Since you didn't mention them by name as having value, I also assume you have concluded RWade, BV and MH are not capable of being competent D-1 players either. Again, if CBN is going to be the coach we think/want him to be, imho he should be able to get a lot more out of them down the road.
If any of these kids mentioned had bailed when CBN was named coach (and freed up more of those slots that you are lusting for) I would like to think that you wouldn't have taken any cheap shots at them; you know, question their character. I tend to doubt it though.
I am saying that HCBN should make it very clearly known what the expectations are to be a Division 1 basketball player receiving a $60K+ per year scholarship at Holy Cross, and that what was allowed to fly under the disengaged previous regime is no longer acceptable. If individuals do not want to rise up to meet these new expectations, it should not be HCBN's responsibility to lower his expectations to make them happy. Simple as that. What makes you think the current players aren't willing to meet these "expectations"? AB, for one, worked his a$$ off all summer to get his body ready to play. Why should a coach, no matter how desirable of a pedigree he possesses, get 100% benefit of the doubt while the players get little or none? I liked the hire, am not panicking in any way at this point, but as of today he is no more successful as a head coach as the returning players are as players.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 12, 2019 12:22:11 GMT -5
I am saying that HCBN should make it very clearly known what the expectations are to be a Division 1 basketball player receiving a $60K+ per year scholarship at Holy Cross, and that what was allowed to fly under the disengaged previous regime is no longer acceptable. If individuals do not want to rise up to meet these new expectations, it should not be HCBN's responsibility to lower his expectations to make them happy. Simple as that. What makes you think the current players aren't willing to meet these "expectations"? AB, for one, worked his a$$ off all summer to get his body ready to play. Why should a coach, no matter how desirable of a pedigree he possesses, get 100% benefit of the doubt while the players get little or none? I liked the hire, am not panicking in any way at this point, but as of today he is no more successful as a head coach as the returning players are as players. The returning players were on teams that had a .389 winning percentage in the pL the last two years, or just a .333 winning percentage if we only look back for one year. No offense to AB, but there is nothing unique about a D1 athlete rehabbing from a surgery/injury. My points were also not singling anyone out. The fact that Nelson is still offering players in the 2020 class tells me that there is some question about who will be on the team going forward.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Dec 12, 2019 12:33:44 GMT -5
Butler's a poor defender, and his offensive numbers are down significantly in virtually every category, BUT he has also doubled his rebounding rate on a(nother) bad rebounding team - for me, he remains one of three core guys on the roster at this point (along with Pridgen and Lowder).
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Post by HC1843 on Dec 12, 2019 13:15:15 GMT -5
It's particulaarly refreshing to see folks #@*&$~!ting on the program, its new head coach, and fellow Crusaders when they are down and during the holidays. Merry effing Christmas. Lots to be proud of here.
Cheers.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 12, 2019 13:41:28 GMT -5
Do you mean a coach like the men under whom he coached for so many years and from whom he learned so much of what he already knows? He has an assistant who has been with the program and knows the ropes. He has an ex-player who played for a successful head coach in recent years. That should suffice. BTW anyone who remembers George Blaney, who coached Stonehill and Dartmouth before coming to HC; will recall how bad his first two years were.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 12, 2019 13:51:43 GMT -5
What makes you think the current players aren't willing to meet these "expectations"? AB, for one, worked his a$$ off all summer to get his body ready to play. Why should a coach, no matter how desirable of a pedigree he possesses, get 100% benefit of the doubt while the players get little or none? I liked the hire, am not panicking in any way at this point, but as of today he is no more successful as a head coach as the returning players are as players. The returning players were on teams that had a .389 winning percentage in the pL the last two years, or just a .333 winning percentage if we only look back for one year. No offense to AB, but there is nothing unique about a D1 athlete rehabbing from a surgery/injury. My points were also not singling anyone out. The fact that Nelson is still offering players in the 2020 class tells me that there is some question about who will be on the team going forward. I think "running off" comes down to playing time; those that don't get that much might decide they have a shot to play more elsewhere (not necesarily D1) and decide to take advantage of that. Or even decide that giving the time and effort to be a good basketball player is not bearing fruit and give up the game and get on with the rest of their (academic and otherwise) life.. Nothing wrong with that unless there's something disingenuous about who Coach Nelson decides to give minutes to.
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Post by trimster on Dec 12, 2019 13:59:31 GMT -5
That said, I don't buy that these are Carmody's guys and we cannot expect him to improve the on-court "product" and actually win games. As I've posted before, we've had a string of coaches who think their way is the only way regardless of the talent on the team. Perhaps only Willard of the last 4 coaches has been flexible enough to try to fit the game plan to the players rather than the other way around. Hopefully, Brett will show some of that flexibility rather than go down the Milan/Bill route. We shouldn't be asked to wait 4 years "when he has his own guys" in order to see significant improvement in results. I don't think the issue is that these are "Carmody's guys" -- I think the issue is that we just simple don't have enough legit D1 talent. RW inherited a team that had performed poorly, but had guys like Curry, Pegues, Seravalle, Sankes, Whearty, and Wilson, and was able to go out and get Szatko for his first year. These were all pieces that he could build around. Milan inherited guys like Keister, Beinert, Cavataio, Brown, Evans, Stevens, Beans, and Dudzinksi -- all guys with very impressive offers coming out of high school (indicating that they had demand as D1 talent). Aside from Lowder and Pridgen, and maybe Wade + Hargris, Nelson does not really have any pieces to work with assuming he is trying to implement a style that requires more than just shooting. Even with those players, RW still went 10-18 in his first year. Nelson winning 6-8 games this year (2-4 less than RW) with a SIGNIFICANTLY worse roster does not strike me as something to be overly concerned about. Ralph Willard’s first team was decimated by injuries to 4 starters. Curry, Pegues, Whearty and Serravalle missed major portions of the season. If those 4 players were healthy, they would have started a total of 112 games. I believe they started somewhere around 30 games. (Curry played limited minutes in x amount of games due to a season long back problems). Pegues and Whearty suffered season-ending injuries early on in the schedule. Serravalle suffered a knee or ankle injury and missed a good chunk of the middle of the season.
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Post by bison137 on Dec 12, 2019 15:15:13 GMT -5
The returning players were on teams that had a .389 winning percentage in the pL the last two years, or just a .333 winning percentage if we only look back for one year. No offense to AB, but there is nothing unique about a D1 athlete rehabbing from a surgery/injury. My points were also not singling anyone out. The fact that Nelson is still offering players in the 2020 class tells me that there is some question about who will be on the team going forward. I think "running off" comes down to playing time; those that don't get that much might decide they have a shot to play more elsewhere (not necesarily D1) and decide to take advantage of that. Or even decide that giving the time and effort to be a good basketball player is not bearing fruit and give up the game and get on with the rest of their (academic and otherwise) life.. Nothing wrong with that unless there's something disingenuous about who Coach Nelson decides to give minutes to. There have been a lot of generalizations about this subject, but I'd like to make the question more black and white. Specifically, if a scholarship player wants to return - regardless of potential playing time - and is willing to do the work and has no attitude problems, is it OK for Coach Nelson to non-renew that player's scholarship if Nelson doesn't think that player is as good as available recruits?
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