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Post by sarasota on Dec 12, 2019 22:20:34 GMT -5
HC is perhaps unique in the universe of college athletics......a very small religious liberal arts college that has won national championships in two major sports and a major bowl participant in a third major sport, but due to profound changes in college athletics and in Society in the last 60+ years, is finding it increasingly difficult to succeed in Div 1 athletics. The major causes are, first, the mushrooming number of colleges intent on upgrading their athletic programs thereby becoming competitive with HC, second, more selective admissions standards than most of HC's athletic opponents, and third, the growing secularity of US Society. The major resources HC has to solve this problem are a healthy size endowment per student, above average academic reputation, above average physical athletic facilities, and healthy alumni financial support. What are we getting for this obsession with Div 1? HC has no sports identity with the 17 yr olds in the U.S. who would apply to HC. There is no interest in HC sports among HC's students except in the varsity team a student happens to play on. There is no interest among the Worcester public as our empty arena/stadia attest. There is no perfect solution to this problem. And it's made doubly hard because college are held captive to a gargantuan monopoly called the NCAA that enforces cookie-cutter rules that make it impossible for colleges to solve their often unique problems. Then there is the annual $7 Million bribe we have to pay sports scholarship athletes to play at HC. I believe the goal of becoming successful in Div 1 is a chimera. The changes HC would have to make to achieve this goal have not been faced up to and if faced up to would not be supported by all HC's constituencies.....except one, the old alums like me who remember the glory sports days. Fortunately for HC we will die off. HC's current Div 1 program is like a tumor that will continue to drain resources away from more productive areas. It's throwing our whole institution out of balance.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 12, 2019 22:42:53 GMT -5
If there are any phone booths still available in the US you should reserve one to hold a meeting of all the people who will support your proposal
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Dec 12, 2019 23:06:25 GMT -5
Rather than spewing this nonsense here sarasota, why don't you contact the BoT and see what they think of your assessment.
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Post by sarasota on Dec 13, 2019 0:26:09 GMT -5
You're naive if you think I'm a lone voice. This Spots Board, which I love, does not represent all of HC's constituencies. And Boards....all kinds of Directors/Trustees....have been known to be out of touch with their constituents.
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Post by td128 on Dec 13, 2019 6:06:36 GMT -5
Mr. Sarasota, as a longtime reader and somewhat regular commentator at this site, I welcome the fact that you are back on this board and I welcome sharing with you that I have real respect for your spirit and concern for Alma Mater. A few comments: 1. You are correct that there are many within our ranks of alumni and on the Board who would choose to move to a D3 status tomorrow. I think an overwhelming number of our faculty fall within this camp. While there are many highly respected individuals in this camp, there are certainly some cancers within our midst as well including those who knew of a prospective professor's writings defiling the good name and honor of our Lord and Savior prior to hiring said individual and still moved forward with the recommendation to hire. What do you do with cancer? You localize it, degrade it and then ultimately cut it out. 2. With all due respect, though, you could not be more wrong with your assessment that: "HC has no sports identity with the 17 yr olds in the U.S. who would apply to HC". On that note, I can introduce you to 90 of the most remarkable young current Crusaders from truly incredible families representing a vibrant cross-section of our American social fabric who have chosen to matriculate at Holy Cross given ALL that it represents. To think otherwise simply is not an accurate statement. What is missing and why does Holy Cross seem to perpetually under perform within this realm? A lack of real leadership and commitment on campus and within the ranks of our Board of Trustees which understands and embraces the fact that the vision for Holy Cross as THE preeminent Catholic undergraduate institution in America can be meaningfully advanced with a truly vibrant, healthy and competitive athletics program that is defined by a commitment to excellence in winning on and off the field. Please do not think that a move to D3 means that we might win at that level. Those with an antipathy for competitive athletics at the D1 level are not about to have an epiphany and aspire for athletic excellence at the D3 level. In very short order, IMO Alma Mater would likely take on the patina of Vassar, Bates, and Connecticut College. There is NO shortage of schools within our geographic target area to compete for students aspiring to matriculate at these sorts of institutions. ( See more under the heading: Show me a good loser and I'll show you a LOSER!!) We can go that route and accede to the wishes of the faculty, selected alums and many within our administration OR . . . . We can truly commit ourselves to excellence and develop future leaders for our college and our country. This is ALREADY happening (perhaps against the better wishes of some) and our 90-Wide Mentoring program is playing a very meaningful role in delivering on this. While selected programs on campus are wallowing in mediocrity at best and a certain few far worse that that, our Holy Cross Crusader Football program is THRIVING. Might this be replicated across all our programs? That is a ground ball BUT it requires a desire on the part of the administration to do so. To wit, I hope anybody who might read this comment and thread will take a few minutes and read the following as examples of what I mean: chuchurahrah.blogspot.com/2018/07/90-wide-mentoring-impact-report.htmlIf you do not want to read all 15 profiles of the Crusaders on that link, please scroll forward and read about Gary Acquah '14, Jon Smith '14 and Tyler Zeoli '15. Special, special, special. These individuals are simply examples of what Holy Cross can produce and they have a LOT of company of other similarly outstanding Crusaders who at this very hour are bringing glory and honor to Alma Mater. IHS
AMDG
LET'S WIN!!
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Post by hcbball on Dec 13, 2019 9:17:14 GMT -5
I'm not a HC alumni and don't have the historical knowledge many of you do, but wanted to offer my perspective. My son is a freshman athlete and is having an incredible experience. Aside from the athletics, the team has engaged in countless volunteer activities, he's receiving tremendous mentoring from the upperclassmen and creating bonds that will last a lifetime. He targeted HC early on due to the academic and athletic combination and ended up turning down multiple D1 and NESCADC offers.
Having said that, I do believe the college landscape is changing, which will create opportunity for HC, either good or bad. The NCAA rule changes are certainly geared towards the P5 schools, whether it be transfer rules, paying of players, etc. Make no mistake, those will never benefit a mid-major school or athlete. There's a strong push to have P5 be their own classification, and I think we will see that in the near future.
What does that mean for the mid-majors? I think some will drop their D1 affiliation, but I think that will allow others to prosper. That's where I hope HC seizes the opportunity. I believe the HC and PL brand is strong, but only regionally. But looking at recruiting classes, we're getting more kids across the country. That should help. So should the Luth.
Scholarships are an issue, outside of football, basketball and lacrosse/soccer (going off memory, I might be wrong here). But they're in the same situation as other PL schools and Ivies. We turned down a lot of money to come to HC, but not every family can make that decision. That decision was based more on academics and alumni network with a hope there would be a payoff down the road. I don't have an answer for this, other than our peer schools are in the same boat, so let's start by regularly beating them. Personally, I would prefer competing with these schools than the NESCAC in D3.
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Post by HC16 on Dec 13, 2019 9:34:49 GMT -5
Sarasota, something to keep in mind is that somewhere in the vicinity of 25% or more of recent alums (I'll say 2012 on, but I can't imagine the ratio changed that much from the preceding 10-15 years) are former D1 athletes. I would imagine most of them would be upset if we dropped to D3. Heck, a good chunk of them would have never considered attending HC if we were D3.
Like Phreek discussed with Lafayette, moving down is a non-starter and that won't change soon.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 13, 2019 9:35:02 GMT -5
Well said, hcbball...solid argument based on logic. Even if not an HC alum, might you have Jesuit training somewhere in your background?
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Post by Tom on Dec 13, 2019 10:14:25 GMT -5
I'm not a HC alumni and don't have the historical knowledge many of you do, but wanted to offer my perspective. My son is a freshman athlete and is having an incredible experience. It is nice to hear a parent's perspective. Thank you for sharing Please be aware that this board has a full spectrum of opinions, and as such, some might seem harsh. As someone who has a very personal stake in this, there might be occasions when you'll need a thick skin I'm glad your son is having an incredible experience. I hope he still says that next week after his first experience with college finals
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 13, 2019 14:31:30 GMT -5
Get off the computer.
But seriously, welcome back. Definitely missed seeing you regularly on the board.
Has it been a really rainy week on the Gulf Coast of Florida or something?
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Dec 13, 2019 14:44:12 GMT -5
Move to Div III and we will eventually be complaining about losses to WPI, Worcester State and Anna Maria. Not a good idea.
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Post by sarasota on Dec 13, 2019 14:44:12 GMT -5
Get off the computer. But seriously, welcome back. Definitely missed seeing you regularly on the board. Has it been a really rainy week on the Gulf Coast of Florida or something? We have helluva lot better weather than you, assuming you're in NY. Remember, this Sunny Florida. Skin cancer not withstanding.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 13, 2019 14:47:07 GMT -5
...do you count the Hurricanes in the "better weather" of Sunny Florida?
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Post by sarasota on Dec 13, 2019 15:04:05 GMT -5
Average Salaries for Full Professors based on American Association of University Professors data: Boston $190,000 American 172,800 Fordham 171,900 Lehigh 161,700 Amherst 153,200
Colgate 151,500 Williams 147,900
Holy Cross 135,800 Loyola 127,300 Lafayette 117,000 You get what you pay for. (I'm a little slanted because I was a college professor for eight years.)
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 13, 2019 15:17:50 GMT -5
Not necessarily. At Mercy College, profs got about half (to 60% of)that amount. We wanted to help students afford college without crushing debt after graduation.
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Post by sarasota on Dec 13, 2019 15:23:51 GMT -5
Not necessarily. At Mercy College, profs got about half (to 60% of)that amount. We wanted to help students afford college without crushing debt after graduation. How many Mercy grads got into top med schools, top dental schools, top law schools, top PhD and MBA programs, top management programs at top financial and industrial companies, etc?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 13, 2019 15:38:53 GMT -5
Average Salaries for Full Professors based on American Association of University Professors data: Boston $190,000 American 172,800 Fordham 171,900 Lehigh 161,700 Colgate 151,500 Holy Cross 135,800 Loyola 127,300 Lafayette 117,000 You get what you pay for. (I'm a little slanted because I was a college professor for eight years.)
'sota---If you don't mind revealing it, would you tell us what subject you taught?
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Post by Tom on Dec 13, 2019 15:59:33 GMT -5
Average Salaries for Full Professors based on American Association of University Professors data: Boston $190,000 American 172,800 Fordham 171,900 Lehigh 161,700 Colgate 151,500 Holy Cross 135,800 Loyola 127,300 Lafayette 117,000 You get what you pay for. (I'm a little slanted because I was a college professor for eight years.)
I find Lehigh and Colgate more telling than the top 3 Cost of living in Boston, DC, or NYC is a lot higher than in Worcester. Compensation has to be inflated to match
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 13, 2019 16:11:10 GMT -5
Average Salaries for Full Professors based on American Association of University Professors data: Boston $190,000 American 172,800 Fordham 171,900 Lehigh 161,700 Colgate 151,500 Holy Cross 135,800 Loyola 127,300 Lafayette 117,000 You get what you pay for. (I'm a little slanted because I was a college professor for eight years.)
I find Lehigh and Colgate more telling than the top 3 Cost of living in Boston, DC, or NYC is a lot higher than in Worcester. Compensation has to be inflated to match I thought it was more the grad school factor myself. Plenty of HC professors live in what would be considered Metro Boston.
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Post by Tom on Dec 13, 2019 16:14:40 GMT -5
I find Lehigh and Colgate more telling than the top 3 Cost of living in Boston, DC, or NYC is a lot higher than in Worcester. Compensation has to be inflated to match I thought it was more the grad school factor myself. Plenty of HC professors live in what would be considered Metro Boston. Grad school is very possibly a larger factor than address. Just making an observation
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 13, 2019 16:33:11 GMT -5
Not necessarily. At Mercy College, profs got about half (to 60% of)that amount. We wanted to help students afford college without crushing debt after graduation. How many Mercy grads got into top med schools, top dental schools, top law schools, top PhD and MBA programs, top management programs at top financial and industrial companies, etc? "Top" is an interesting qualifier. I cannot put my hands on my copy of "Snob Acceptances" right now so I am afraid you will have to wait to find the answer to your question. Surely you are not so shallow as to think that salaries of faculty are the sole judge of their ability or the accomplishments of their students. Are you?
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Post by sarasota on Dec 13, 2019 16:42:49 GMT -5
Average Salaries for Full Professors based on American Association of University Professors data: Boston $190,000 American 172,800 Fordham 171,900 Lehigh 161,700 Colgate 151,500 Holy Cross 135,800 Loyola 127,300 Lafayette 117,000 You get what you pay for. (I'm a little slanted because I was a college professor for eight years.)
'sota---If you don't mind revealing it, would you tell us what subject you taught? Philosophy, with specialties in Analytic Philosophy, Philosophy of Mind, Philosophy of Science, Symbolic Logic.
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Post by sarasota on Dec 13, 2019 16:45:20 GMT -5
HC needs to raise salaries substantially. However, are the salaries for the schools solely for the profs. on the undergraduate level or are grad school salaries included? Obviously this question would apply to BU, AU, FU and Lehigh. LoveHC Will try to check, but the AAUP data reports are difficult to dig into. (They also break out by gender.)
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Post by sarasota on Dec 13, 2019 16:46:30 GMT -5
Average Salaries for Full Professors based on American Association of University Professors data: Boston $190,000 American 172,800 Fordham 171,900 Lehigh 161,700 Colgate 151,500 Holy Cross 135,800 Loyola 127,300 Lafayette 117,000 You get what you pay for. (I'm a little slanted because I was a college professor for eight years.)
I find Lehigh and Colgate more telling than the top 3 Cost of living in Boston, DC, or NYC is a lot higher than in Worcester. Compensation has to be inflated to match agree
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Post by sarasota on Dec 13, 2019 16:59:07 GMT -5
How many Mercy grads got into top med schools, top dental schools, top law schools, top PhD and MBA programs, top management programs at top financial and industrial companies, etc? "Top" is an interesting qualifier. I cannot put my hands on my copy of "Snob Acceptances" right now so I am afraid you will have to wait to find the answer to your question. Surely you are not so shallow as to think that salaries of faculty are the sole judge of their ability or the accomplishments of their students. Are you? In our non-Socialistic society in the U.S., I believe it is fair to say, as a generalization, that, in all areas of endeavor, meritocracy is measured in dollars. In an institution of higher learning, faculty compensation is one indicator of the school's values. Also, it should be recognized that HC probably values teaching performance more than publishing performance. For better or worse, in the college universe, Professors who publish can command higher compensation than those who don't.
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