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Post by sader1970 on Jan 7, 2020 20:01:08 GMT -5
Over the years there's been deflatgate and alleged inappropriate filming by the Patriots. Now, the Red Sox are being accused of illicit activities. Something in the Boston water?
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Jan 7, 2020 22:09:40 GMT -5
Cora learned how to cheat in Houston
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 13, 2020 15:48:32 GMT -5
Hinch and Astros GM first suspended by Commissioner Manfred, then fired by their owner. Full commissioner ruling on Cora not yet out (given this was just the outcome for the Astros in particular), but expected to be harsher given A) Red Sox second violation after B) the initial violation promised worse punishment for future offenses and C) Cora's involvement on a repeated basis.
BYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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Post by purplenurple on Jan 14, 2020 13:41:45 GMT -5
Hinch and Astros GM first suspended by Commissioner Manfred, then fired by their owner. Full commissioner ruling on Cora not yet out (given this was just the outcome for the Astros in particular), but expected to be harsher given A) Red Sox second violation after B) the initial violation promised worse punishment for future offenses and C) Cora's involvement on a repeated basis. BYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE The Sox should ax Cora now.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 14, 2020 13:45:27 GMT -5
And the Mets should axe Beltrán now. Coming from a big Mets fan
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Post by rickii on Jan 14, 2020 14:02:47 GMT -5
And the Mets should axe Beltrán now. Coming from a big Mets fan Is the full report on line yet ?
Don't know how you treat a player ( Beltran ) versus 'management' ( Hinch, Astro GM, Cora ) in all this.
AIR, Beltran told NY media he knew nothing....that seems very, very unlikely now. Did he lie to Mets in the job interview ? Probably.
MLB needs this to just go away and hope this 'virus' is confined to just two teams being naughty....but is it ? I doubt that.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 14, 2020 14:24:49 GMT -5
I doubt it also. Beltrán was the only player mentioned in the report. He cooperated, but did lie to the media and maybe to the Mets. He will be a distraction and the shroud of this scandal, esp if it spreads, will be with him and the Mets. Not only will the NY media haunt him, but so will the media at every city the team visits Firing him is the correct ethical and practical choice.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 14, 2020 14:36:57 GMT -5
I felt bad at first for Hinch, who reportedly was not a fan of the scheme and smashed some monitors that were found to be supporting the operation on two occasions. However, "not being a fan" is much different from "telling the players to stop"-- a fact that was mentioned by the violating players as one reason why they continued. Also, I remembered the interview either just before or during the playoffs where this was brought up, and Hinch was smug and lying through his teeth. So, he has to fall on the axe as the "field general" and let's go Yankees in 2020.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 14, 2020 14:46:31 GMT -5
And the GM has his axe to fall on as well.
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Post by timholycross on Jan 14, 2020 17:08:49 GMT -5
Speaking of GMs, is it possible that Dombrowski's departure had some connection to this?
Regardless of the answer to that, one would assume he knew a great deal about the situation. Hard to figure otherwise.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 14, 2020 19:34:57 GMT -5
Cora gone
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 14, 2020 22:56:32 GMT -5
I have not been an MLB fan for many years now. But as I understand this, the issue in hand was electronic cheating (i.e. video, communicating via texts or other electronic form and then beating a trash can top a certain number of times so that batter knew from the stolen sign what kind of pitch was coming). However, there is apparently no rule against a runner on second from "stealing" the catcher's sign and communicating it to the batter. Of course, an additional advantage is stealing a sign when there is no runner on second.
Regardless, seems much ado about nothing. Thought that's why catchers don't just flash one sign for each pitch; 3rd base coaches flash multiple signs to the batter; just like football sidelines have multiple people flashing signs to the QB - to make it harder to know which is the correct "sign" that counts.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 14, 2020 23:00:25 GMT -5
Tell the 3 people without jobs today that it was much ado about nothing
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 14, 2020 23:28:09 GMT -5
You've again missed my oblique point. If you are allowed to "steal" signs using the runner on second, you should not have a rule against stealing signs any other way simply because it is more efficient. My point is, no one should be fired for this. The much ado about nothing is the rule.
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Post by Tom on Jan 15, 2020 12:56:49 GMT -5
I have not been an MLB fan for many years now. But as I understand this, the issue in hand was electronic cheating (i.e. video, communicating via texts or other electronic form and then beating a trash can top a certain number of times so that batter knew from the stolen sign what kind of pitch was coming). However, there is apparently no rule against a runner on second from "stealing" the catcher's sign and communicating it to the batter. Of course, an additional advantage is stealing a sign when there is no runner on second. Regardless, seems much ado about nothing. Thought that's why catchers don't just flash one sign for each pitch; 3rd base coaches flash multiple signs to the batter; just like football sidelines have multiple people flashing signs to the QB - to make it harder to know which is the correct "sign" that counts. There is no rule against stealing signs with your eyes. There is a rule against using electronic equipment to steal signs. While using electronic equipment you are also recording and can analyze the tape for patterns to break the code. For what it's worth, there is a penalty for the runner on second stealing signs even though it's not against the rules. Perhaps Cora could step into the batters box and get drilled by an opposing pitcher
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Post by Tom on Jan 15, 2020 13:00:39 GMT -5
On a related note, Pete Rose wants to know why none of the players are being help accountable. I am in the camp that thinks Pete Rose's suspension is correct and he should never be allowed in the Hall of Fame in spite of all of his arguments to the contrary.. However, even I think he brings up a valid point in this case
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 15, 2020 13:01:40 GMT -5
What’s the penalty if no rule against it (runner stealing the sign)?
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Post by Tom on Jan 15, 2020 13:34:02 GMT -5
What’s the penalty if no rule against it (runner stealing the sign)? Getting drilled by the pitcher in your next at bat
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Post by hchoops on Jan 15, 2020 13:46:54 GMT -5
On a related note, Pete Rose wants to know why none of the players are being help accountable. I am in the camp that thinks Pete Rose's suspension is correct and he should never be allowed in the Hall of Fame in spite of all of his arguments to the contrary.. However, even I think he brings up a valid point in this case Reasons players were not punished 1- very hard to get reliable evidence 2- players union
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Post by timholycross on Jan 15, 2020 15:08:28 GMT -5
Why not come up with a different way for the catcher to tell the batter what pitch he wants thrown?
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Post by CHC8485 on Jan 15, 2020 15:50:23 GMT -5
There's a thought, Tim. They've been using fingers to signal pitches for what, ever?, and stealing signs since the day after that? How about innovating and using technology to allow pitcher & catcher to communicate. Or maybe change things up once in a while and make 2 a fastball.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 15, 2020 16:19:30 GMT -5
What’s the penalty if no rule against it (runner stealing the sign)? There is no rule prohibiting a player/coach on the field from interpreting a sign, or even attempting to signal a teammate. There is a rule, first broken in 2017 I believe (or at least fractured by the Yankees, Red Sox, and perhaps others) prohibiting teams from using technology/video/Apple watches/lights in center field/etc. to either obtain and decode opponents' signs, and to relay information to batters in the box. The fact that this occurred in 2017 and the commissioner said, "Don't do this again," and then it did happen, is partly the reason for the hardened response.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jan 15, 2020 16:33:01 GMT -5
The sign stealers can at least say they were trying to win. Can Pete say that?
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 15, 2020 17:17:57 GMT -5
Yes, he can. Only he was trying to win money (on his bets).
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Post by timholycross on Jan 15, 2020 19:39:22 GMT -5
If you want to read about sign stealing in a very low tech fashion, read The Echoing Green about the 1951 National League pennant race which ended in a 3 game playoff, won by the New York Baseball Giants on Bobby Thomson's walkoff homer.
Anyone who reads it will be amazed at the way pitchers were overused (and careers ruined prematurely in a lot of cases) in those days.
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