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Post by hc6774 on Apr 24, 2020 10:26:16 GMT -5
In his webinar ADMB went off script early in his presentation because 35% of the submitted questions were about the 'transfer culture' in basketball, specifically MBB. A transactional culture as opposed to a transformational culture.
He went on to set out 2/3 categories of types who transfer out of D1 basketball programs.
What did others hear?
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Post by lou on Apr 24, 2020 10:35:02 GMT -5
I was waiting to hear him explain why so many were leaving HC. He didn't.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Apr 24, 2020 10:48:36 GMT -5
Transfer Culture may be a thing, but it keeps HC even more honest. Now more than ever, the value of the education, the success of the program, the culture, the PR, the institutional support, the fan support, and everything else is under assault. It's the free market economy, and what it will support. If HC can't withstand that competition, then maybe they aren't as deserving for any top flight players. It won't get any easier as colleges more broadly face macroeconomic challenges.
With more options to leave, what options and angles is HC adding to the mix to continue to get AND keep players? They should be thinking about that if they haven't already.
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Post by hchoops on Apr 24, 2020 10:52:00 GMT -5
The May 20 NCAA transfer decision will prompt more to many to a ridiculous number of transfers. Hopefully we will not lose any more players. We could be in a hold position in recruiting seniors / JCs until then to see if we can get one or two transfers. They would be eligible to play immediately, whenever that may be.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Apr 24, 2020 11:03:22 GMT -5
I was waiting to hear him explain why so many were leaving HC. He didn't. Which is pretty shocking, to be honest. Every single person who was on that webinar has a real interest in HC basketball. The reason they were invited to the damn thing was because they have donated money to HC athletics! Barring sanctions against a program that either limit scholarships or ban postseason play, I can't imagine all of these defections have ever happened at a school in one year. To be frank, it's embarrassing. Did ADMB and HCBN not see the elephant sitting in the corner of the room? The PL ROY just announced he was leaving the program and many other players also have left the program all under Nelson's watch. I think it's pretty tone deaf not even to address it. They could have been cryptic about mentioning reasons as to departures, but to act as if having SEVEN OF ELEVEN non-senior scholarship players leave the program since the beginning of the 2019-20 season doesn't warrant some commentary is bizarre. In fact, I would surmise that there would be an uncomfortable feeling in the "room" by not doing so.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 24, 2020 11:14:17 GMT -5
I heard him say that HCBN does things the right way. I scratched my head about that.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 24, 2020 11:18:31 GMT -5
In context, he was speaking about the process of recruiting (amid NCAA investigations of multiple programs) and we needed someone who would do things the right way. BN had no such marks against his record.
IMHO we won't be able to judge some of this current upheaval until we are down the road a bit and do so in hindsight.
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Post by trimster on Apr 24, 2020 11:20:11 GMT -5
I was waiting to hear him explain why so many were leaving HC. He didn't. Which is pretty shocking, to be honest. Every single person who was on that webinar has a real interest in HC basketball. The reason they were invited to the damn thing was because they have donated money to HC athletics! Barring sanctions against a program that either limit scholarships or ban postseason play, I can't imagine all of these defections have ever happened at a school in one year. To be frank, it's embarrassing. Did ADMB and HCBN not see the elephant sitting in the corner of the room? The PL ROY just announced he was leaving the program and many other players also have left the program all under Nelson's watch. I think it's pretty tone deaf not even to address it. They could have been cryptic about mentioning reasons as to departures, but to act as if having SEVEN OF ELEVEN non-senior scholarship players leave the program since the beginning of the 2019-20 season doesn't warrant some commentary is bizarre. In fact, I would surmise that there would be an uncomfortable feeling in the "room" by not doing so. What would you expect him to say in a public forum other than what he offered.
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Post by trimster on Apr 24, 2020 11:21:48 GMT -5
In context, he was speaking about the process of recruiting (amid NCAA investigations of multiple programs) and we needed someone who would do things the right way. BN had no such marks against his record. IMHO we won't be able to judge some of this current upheaval until we are down the road a bit and do so in hindsight. Did I hear correctly as to a reference made in passing to the FBI investigation.
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Post by Ray on Apr 24, 2020 11:23:29 GMT -5
In context, he was speaking about the process of recruiting (amid NCAA investigations of multiple programs) and we needed someone who would do things the right way. BN had no such marks against his record. I thought it was particularly interesting that he highlighted BN's "do things the right way" approach as being particularly important in light of the "FBI investigation" dating back to the prior season. Was that the first time that incident was publicly acknowledged by HC?
I also thought it was very disappointing that he didn't acknowledge anything specific to HC as a contributing factor in the transfer epidemic. According to ADMB, it's all just reflective of the current landscape (in both men's/women's hoops) and HC isn't immune.
Even if you accept that premise, then the followup question could/should have been: how do we *make* HC (more) immune?
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 24, 2020 11:23:37 GMT -5
You did hear that - but without any further explanation. I am not sure what (or who) such an investigation involved.
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Post by Ray on Apr 24, 2020 11:32:26 GMT -5
You did hear that - but without any further explanation. I am not sure what (or who) such an investigation involved. I took it to be the Karl Charles/Stevens/etc matter from 2017-18....
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 24, 2020 11:33:06 GMT -5
Could be.
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Post by hc6774 on Apr 24, 2020 11:46:02 GMT -5
I was waiting to hear him explain why so many were leaving HC. He didn't. I was one of the 35% [approx. 70 of 200+ tuned into the webinar] that ask a question on the subject. Later I got an email response that apologized for not getting all question saying that 'we' will share answers to the remaining questions soon. I thought his generalized categories of D1 transfers shed a little light on how some of the recent transfers were handled... I believe he said 'we help them in some cases'. Also overall HC needed to recruit athletes that are interested in a transformational experience [very Jesuit] vs a transactional experience.
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Post by hc6774 on Apr 24, 2020 11:49:16 GMT -5
You did hear that - but without any further explanation. I am not sure what (or who) such an investigation involved. I took it to be the Karl Charles/Stevens/etc matter from 2017-18....
I took it to be more about Patino's alleged interest in the opening.
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Post by alum on Apr 24, 2020 11:51:02 GMT -5
In context, he was speaking about the process of recruiting (amid NCAA investigations of multiple programs) and we needed someone who would do things the right way. BN had no such marks against his record. IMHO we won't be able to judge some of this current upheaval until we are down the road a bit and do so in hindsight. Did I hear correctly as to a reference made in passing to the FBI investigation. I understood that to mean that he wasn't going to hire a coach during the summer of 2019 who had been even been tainted by the FBI investigation into recruiting.
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Post by lou on Apr 24, 2020 11:51:20 GMT -5
In context, he was speaking about the process of recruiting (amid NCAA investigations of multiple programs) and we needed someone who would do things the right way. BN had no such marks against his record. I thought it was particularly interesting that he highlighted BN's "do things the right way" approach as being particularly important in light of the "FBI investigation" dating back to the prior season. Was that the first time that incident was publicly acknowledged by HC?
I also thought it was very disappointing that he didn't acknowledge anything specific to HC as a contributing factor in the transfer epidemic. According to ADMB, it's all just reflective of the current landscape (in both men's/women's hoops) and HC isn't immune.
Even if you accept that premise, then the followup question could/should have been: how do we *make* HC (more) immune?
I jotted down "FBI scandal". And I was pretty surprised to hear it. I also thought that was the first time we heard that coming from an HC administrator.
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Post by Tom on Apr 24, 2020 11:58:29 GMT -5
I took it to be the Karl Charles/Stevens/etc matter from 2017-18....
I took it to be more about Patino's alleged interest in the opening. Pitino makes way more sense, although it could be expanded to any one associated with any program under that investigation. The FBI is not looking into anything concerning the 2017-18 basketball team
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Post by hc89 on Apr 24, 2020 12:03:52 GMT -5
You did hear that - but without any further explanation. I am not sure what (or who) such an investigation involved. I took it to be the Karl Charles/Stevens/etc matter from 2017-18....
I don’t think so. I believe it was the Christian Dawkins scandal.
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Post by Ray on Apr 24, 2020 12:21:52 GMT -5
AH, could have been the FBI/sneaker thing. That didn't occur to me at the time, but certainly makes sense.
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Post by trimster on Apr 24, 2020 12:26:18 GMT -5
AH, could have been the FBI/sneaker thing. That didn't occur to me at the time, but certainly makes sense. I didn’t connect that dot either.
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Post by princetoncrusader on Apr 25, 2020 8:44:16 GMT -5
I also listened to the webinar. Agree, there is only so much Marcus could say in a public forum. Nevertheless, I was hoping to hear something along these lines: "The players who transferred left for a variety of reasons. Some wanted to be closer to home or wanted a different academic program or wanted to play in a higher profile conference or realized they would see more playing time at a lower division. These moves had nothing to do with the coaching staff." Instead, we got a vague, doublespeak non-answer. The whole situation leaves me very troubled.
I am surprised why some enterprising journalist hasn't written a story on this topic or included it as part of a broader story on D1 transfers. This has to be the highest number of transfers of any program in the country.
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Post by joe on Apr 25, 2020 9:11:02 GMT -5
So a kid plays AAU from age 7. Maybe his dad coaches his teams and makes sure he plays point guard and gets the most touches. Maybe he’s pretty good and works hard. Gives up all other sports and majors in hoops. Every weekend of the year there are tournaments in all corners of the state, some out of state requiring airplane rides and hotels. Family vacations are cancelled. Along the way he’s told over and over he’s the best around. Every now and then he finds himself on a team where he isn’t billed as the top star so he bounces.
Flash forward a few years and he’s played for maybe 4-5 AAU teams, transferred in junior high and again in high school. He is constantly recorded on video and over the years he has a nice mix tape. He’s invested so much time by now that not playing college ball would be absurd. He starts getting recruited and tweets how blessed he is to have so much lover from everyone. He creates a basketball related twitter handle and an online persona. His grades are decent and he gets offers from low majors down to D3. But he’s been playing for so long and been told he’s the best for so long that’s not good enough. Doesn’t think too much about adulthood and getting a job, just living up to expectations as an athlete.
To get higher offers be preps for a year and this goes well. Adds a few plays to his mix tape. Now he gets mid-major offers but that’s still not good enough. He’s maybe an inch too short or a step too slow. Ends up getting an offer from Holy Cross University, some little Catholic school up north that his family doesn’t know from Adam. His father says, “Hey there’s nothing wrong with Holy Cross. It’s not Duke but it’s D1. Did you know Bob Cousey went there?” Kid is like, “Who’s that?” Kid ends up buying into the recruitment chatter and signs a LOI. He knows it’s a great academic school but doesn’t really care about that. Dad says out of the corner of his mouth, “By the way if you do well there you can always transfer up.” Kid has had full permission to think of himself first and this just reinforces it, but knows how to talk the talk as it relates to being a teammate.
He shows up to HC with good enough intentions but with a little bit of a chip on his shoulder. Finds HC to be hard academically. Does OK as the hoops seasons go on but finds HC to be a far less glamorous place to play D1 basketball. No much fan support, losses pile up, crappy gym, apathetic students and fans, no celebrity status, not even a score board with video. Now maybe the kid isn’t getting much playing time and becomes unhappy. Or maybe he’s doing so well that he is again convinced he should have been given a high major offer. Starts to think about bouncing and maybe starts looking for things to complain about. Maybe he decides he wants to go to a warmer place or have an easier course load or major. Decides his hoop dreams are not coming true and that’s a heavy load to bear after all these years of work and being told how great he is. It’s now or never. Enter the transfer portal. He gets interest from a high major school whose top two players just went pro after 1-2 years and he wouldn’t even have to sit out a year. He bounces and never again thinks of Mt. St. James, his teammates, or the value of degree he just crapped on. Rinse and repeat.
For HC, this may be how it goes indefinitely.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Apr 25, 2020 9:20:28 GMT -5
I am surprised why some enterprising journalist hasn't written a story on this topic or included it as part of a broader story on D1 transfers. This has to be the highest number of transfers of any program in the country. This is Worcester. We don't have one of those.
The only program at this level experiencing a comparable exodus recently was Maine under Bob Walsh. He also loved to talk about "culture," and pretty much the entire roster walked within 2-3 years. He went 3-27 in his initial season - then 8-22, 7-25, and 6-26.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Apr 25, 2020 9:22:12 GMT -5
Yikes!
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