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Post by hcpride on Sept 23, 2021 11:37:14 GMT -5
Anyone care to speculate regarding the root cause of this dilemma? Any suggestions to remedy this issue, and to grow the applicant numbers? On another thread we predicted this recent (covid) admissions cycle would see the more prestigious Catholic schools increasing in application numbers and the less prestigious decreasing - the only question (for some) was which side HC would fall on. We now know. Georgetown, ND, BC and Nova increased while Fordham, HC, and Providence decreased. While I agree that our overtly Catholic name may be a disadvantage nowadays (Chu Chu's well taken point), I have to point out that other Catholic schools without overtly Catholic names also saw a decline in applications this cycle (Fordham, Providence, etc.). The same phenomena generally occurred this cycle with the secular non-state schools (the more prestigious saw a gain in admissions - sometimes quite dramatic - while the less prestigious saw a loss in applications). So, why have we lost prestige over the last 30-40 years or so? At the risk of offending my fellow alums, we are very well established as a Catholic, uber-woke, D-1 sports playing, undergraduate, liberal arts, college. No need to double down on any of that in terms of messaging. But are we still known as a place for strong academic kids? That's the shortest route to prestige.
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Post by mm67 on Sept 23, 2021 15:01:50 GMT -5
Is it possible that Fr. Brooks' vision of HC in an elite DIv. III league and not dependent on athletics for its rep was the right way to go.? See Bowdoin, Wesleyan, etc.Was this the only way to salvage our academic reputation? Would the academic profile of the entire student body be on a higher level? Or, does the Catholic nature & athletics bent of the school preclude any such outcome? Sadly, this avenue of academic excellence was not open to HC. Sometimes, a vision is merely a fantasy. Maybe, HC being HC is the only way to go. Ardently Catholic. Big on sports. Strong workmanlike academics. And revel in who we are rather trying to be something we are not.
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Post by purplehaze on Sept 23, 2021 19:01:45 GMT -5
Your last point is correct - we proceed proudly as only HC can be - we are a very unique institution and let’s embrace it
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bpob55
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 114
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Post by bpob55 on Sept 24, 2021 14:08:43 GMT -5
Another thing that has not been mentioned much on this thread is the allocation of aid. With an endowment pushing $1B, HC is able to give out plenty of aid. Almost all of this is devoted to need-based aid as the school is one of only a few that meets all demonstrated need. The school gives out almost no merit aid to applying students. This tremendously decreases the yield rate of the highest achieving applicants and also discourages many from applying all together. For a top-notch student whose family's income is only marginally above $100,000, the cost of the school with no merit or financial aid is a tremendous challenge. This same student would be receiving huge aid packages from many of the schools that we are competing against. Schools like Fordham and Providence are so much better than us in this area. We have developed a reputation for this, and that is something that I do not think should be overlooked.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Sept 24, 2021 14:22:26 GMT -5
Is it possible that Fr. Brooks' vision of HC in an elite DIv. III league and not dependent on athletics for its rep was the right way to go.? See Bowdoin, Wesleyan, etc.Was this the only way to salvage our academic reputation? Would the academic profile of the entire student body be on a higher level? Or, does the Catholic nature & athletics bent of the school preclude any such outcome? Sadly, this avenue of academic excellence was not open to HC. Sometimes, a vision is merely a fantasy. Maybe, HC being HC is the only way to go. Ardently Catholic. Big on sports. Strong workmanlike academics. And revel in who we are rather trying to be something we are not. One man's thoughts: 1. Don't hide from a Catholic identity, but I don't think I would be "ardent" about it. Find more ways to make people of other faiths feel welcome. 2. Big on sports, but fewer of them. I've started randomly looking at large schools athletic sites and so far they all have far fewer sports than HC. 3. Elite academics with an accomplished engaged faculty. Expanded research opportunities. 4. Relentlessly build the endowment to provide more financial aid. 5. Endow merit based scholarships 6. Out of the box aggressive marketing to other parts of the country
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 24, 2021 14:32:18 GMT -5
While I have long supported "meeting all financial need" of our students, I too would like to see more academic scholarships based on academic performance over and above "financial need." Guess that all comes down to money.
Years ago, Fairfield gave more money to my younger son for attending than Holy Cross did for my older son despite the stronger financial position of HC over FU and the higher cost of going to HC. Never could quite figure how HC was meeting our financial need. Fairfield seems to do a better job even though they weren't advertising meeting financial need like HC did.
In any case, academic scholarships might be a way to entice better students to apply and attend Holy Cross. And that, my friends, would be a way to help enhance HC's reputation and rankings.
So, who's got $100 million for the cause?
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Post by newfieguy74 on Sept 24, 2021 14:41:30 GMT -5
We live in CT but my daughter applied to a number of small liberal arts schools in the Midwest. Every one gave her generous merit based financial aid. If a family has an income of, say, 200-300K, they may be comfortable but they are not wealthy and merit based aid is like a magnet.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Sept 24, 2021 14:45:54 GMT -5
Is it possible that Fr. Brooks' vision of HC in an elite DIv. III league and not dependent on athletics for its rep was the right way to go.? See Bowdoin, Wesleyan, etc.Was this the only way to salvage our academic reputation? Would the academic profile of the entire student body be on a higher level? Or, does the Catholic nature & athletics bent of the school preclude any such outcome? Sadly, this avenue of academic excellence was not open to HC. Sometimes, a vision is merely a fantasy. Maybe, HC being HC is the only way to go. Ardently Catholic. Big on sports. Strong workmanlike academics. And revel in who we are rather trying to be something we are not. One man's thoughts: 1. Don't hide from a Catholic identity, but I don't think I would be "ardent" about it. Find more ways to make people of other faiths feel welcome. 2. Big on sports, but fewer of them. I've started randomly looking at large schools athletic sites and so far they all have far fewer sports than HC. 3. Elite academics with an accomplished engaged faculty. Expanded research opportunities. 4. Relentlessly build the endowment to provide more financial aid. 5. Endow merit based scholarships 6. Out of the box aggressive marketing to other parts of the country I would suggest that you send your points to Chairman of the Board Rick Patterson regarding the future plans to be implemented by President Rougeau, Provost Freije and Vice Provost LeSane. The only point I disagree, is the elimination of any sports that are currently sponsored. There was a day in the month of November, (November 10, 2007) that I attended five athletic events that were held on campus during that particular day, football, (vs Lafayette), men’s basketball, (vs Hofstra) volley ball men’s soccer and men’s ice hockey. Certainly was an exciting day to be on campus from morning through night. Let’s continue to build a solid foundation to support all of out teams. We have the facilities on campus, current and newly proposed that should provide success.
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Post by Xmassader on Sept 24, 2021 16:08:49 GMT -5
newfieguy74. To supplement another post, I suggest that you send your thoughts to Stan Grayson ‘72, a Trustee and the head of the Committee to select a new President of the Board of Trustees who would take office early next year.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 25, 2021 5:38:26 GMT -5
Ann has retired. I suspect her approach to admissions was retired with her.
Class of 2023 / Class of 2024 Enrolling students: 829 / 736 (I recall that about 80 students took a gap year.) Residents of other countries: 33 / 21 Hispanic 119 / 74 Black 44 / 22 White 531 / 564 Asian 43 / 22 Massachusetts residents 38% / 56%
It may be that the pandemic is the primary reason for the shift in admissions toward White residents of Massachusetts, and that future years will revert back to a path of greater diversity and a more national student body.
But this shift may also reflect an admissions office organizationally focused on one region. When seven of the 11 HC admissions staff have a geographic assignment that includes schools in Massachusetts, the likely result is an overweight of Massachusetts residents applying to HC, --which is the exact opposite of what the college seeks. One of the 11 admissions staff covers California, along with several other states. Boston College, with a 3x larger undergraduate enrollment, has 19 admissions staff, five of whom are assigned to cover California.
I consider the class of 2025 to be a pandemic class, from an admissions standpoint. Any post-Ann changes in admissions strategy could not be put in place until she was out the door.
The other factor is the M:F ratio, which has slid in recent years from near parity to about 45:55. Boston U and Georgetown are about 40:60.
It would be a big mistake to cut sports. Because of Title IX, the only sports you would cut are male sports, and sports are critical to expanding the geographic reach of Holy Cross.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Sept 25, 2021 6:26:39 GMT -5
There was an article in the WSJ on Sept. 6 which discussed the alarming gender disparity in higher education. The F/M ratio is now 60/40 and getting worse. Many young men, even ones who have been accepted to colleges, are giving up on college. It's a disturbing trend and has no easy solution.
As for sports, I'm not necessarily advocating for eliminating any but it seems worthy of discussion. I understand that Title IX drives the discussion. This may be a stupid question, but wouldn't big schools offering far fewer sports also have dealt with Title IX and somehow made it work?
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Post by mm67 on Sept 25, 2021 6:55:11 GMT -5
Some random thoughts. Numbers don't lie. TBT overall the school has been in a decline in admissions for many yearsThe most recent report on admissions is a continuation of a trend dating from the pre - pandemic days. Many years ago the school adopted an SAT optional policy in an attempt to attract more applicants. It was a short term fix for a long term "problem." HC is on the way to becoming a regional LAC. Possibly, the traditional model HC has been following for decades can no longer maintain HC's national footprint & academic excellence. Sadly, ethnic & racial diversity numbers declined in this most recent report. Rah rah fight on for Holy Cross does not seem to have much staying power these days. For instance, we keep promoting sports as a way to expand the school's reach yet few students attend games. Sports apparently serve to attract mainly the participants. Clearly what works for Alabama & others may not work for HC. Maybe, HC should merely continue to do what it has always done. Do what it has done best & let the chips fall where they may. Maybe these numbers are worrisome because many of us worry about them Maybe there would be no problem if we let it go and stopped paying any attention to these numbers. Stop viewing these numbers as a problem. Ignore the numbers, accept reality and move on.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 25, 2021 7:14:15 GMT -5
Some excellent points there.
As for: This is exactly right for all the "minor" sports as I was told that specifically by a higher up at HC. Obviously, if someone goes to a college just to be sitting in the stands of a football stadium, they are not likely to go to Holy Cross and more likely to go to Notre Dame or Alabama or Ohio State (and, yes, there were a lot of them when I lived in the Buckeye State). And they sure aren't coming to sit on the sidelines to watch field hockey.
We aren't changing Title IX anytime soon. So any reduction in sponsored sports has to be done carefully.
Holy Cross should do another up-to-date study reflecting today's situation on the role of athletics. While I was told minor sports "costs us practically nothing," I find that hard to believe. Compared to football, obviously? And basketball with the high coaches salaries (men's anyway), also obviously.
But could some dropped minor sports money go to academic scholarships?
I don't agree that we should just do nothing and watch the reputation of the College sink. I am hopeful that Vince R will have the ambition and wherewithal to pull us out of the inertial decline.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 25, 2021 7:56:51 GMT -5
There was an article in the WSJ on Sept. 6 which discussed the alarming gender disparity in higher education. The F/M ratio is now 60/40 and getting worse. Many young men, even ones who have been accepted to colleges, are giving up on college. It's a disturbing trend and has no easy solution. As for sports, I'm not necessarily advocating for eliminating any but it seems worthy of discussion. I understand that Title IX drives the discussion. This may be a stupid question, but wouldn't big schools offering far fewer sports also have dealt with Title IX and somehow made it work? The big schools offering far fewer sports do so because they are relying on football revenues to support an entire athletic program, and they are not in the business of losing money on athletics. I remember discovering that, some years back, Colgate offered more scollie aid than did the University of Texas at Austin. 500 student athletes among an U/G student population of 40,000 means the athletes are largely anonymous among the student body; 700 student athletes in an U/G population of 3,000 means everyone on campus knows classmates who play a sport. If you are serious about cutting back on sports, then you cut football or M/W ice hockey. FADMB has it easier at Creighton than at HC. More money, and he has only one priority. Fill the seats for men's basketball. It is my understanding that HC looked at cutting back on sports recently, and decided not to do so. And ADMB got the go-ahead to spend x millions on top of the hill to rebuild and expand M/W soccer, M/W lacrosse venues; move the field events venues; build a new softball field, and eventually replace the field hockey field and 400 meter track.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 25, 2021 8:14:28 GMT -5
The Jo appears to get more use than does the student recreation center at Colorado State University, which has about 25,000 U/Gs and 33,000 students total. CSU updates facility use continually, and use webcams to let students know how much of the facility is currently being used. csurec.colostate.edu/facility/rec-cams/
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Post by mm67 on Sept 25, 2021 8:17:17 GMT -5
Change is a constant. Indeed, HC has changed over the years. No doubt the school will continue to change perhaps as of necessity in a more dramatic fashion. Will HC need to move to a vastly different paradigm? The poor attendance by students at f-ball & b-ball is a noteworthy change. Does the increased emphasis on so-called minor sports portend further changes in the school's profile? Is it possible that we are a dying breed of HC football/basketball fanatics? Could it be the younger posters are the last generation of passionate alum sports fans?
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Post by Crucis#1 on Sept 25, 2021 8:36:06 GMT -5
The statistics cited provides a clear picture that Cornell LeSane has an enormous series of tasks that must be accomplish to rectify the myopia that was ingrained in the admissions office. Very sad that the bell that has been rung for years regarding applications numbers and demographics was not listened by the BOT. This trend is clearly unacceptable for strong academic viability.
Class of 2023 / Class of 2024 Enrolling students: 829 / 736 (I recall that about 80 students took a gap year.) Residents of other countries: 33 / 21 Hispanic 119 / 74 Black 44 / 22 White 531 / 564 Asian 43 / 22 Massachusetts residents 38% / 56%
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Post by hcpride on Sept 25, 2021 8:36:20 GMT -5
Your last point is correct - we proceed proudly as only HC can be - we are a very unique institution and let’s embrace it As a Catholic, uber-woke, D-1 sports playing, strictly undergraduate, liberal arts, college we are indeed unique. It is unfortunate unique and desirable are not synonyms. If we consider tweaking some of our identity to become more desirable to the high school seniors, I'm betting Catholic, uber-woke, and strictly undergraduate are not on the table. Adjusting sports might nibble at the margins in terms of cost. Perhaps there is some promise in supplementing the traditional liberal arts? (To forestall any strawmen, there is no suggestion we will fail to fill our undergraduate slots going forward. The question, in my mind, is one of applicant numbers, academic quality of our applicants, and recapturing academic prestige/reputation.)
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Post by newfieguy74 on Sept 25, 2021 8:49:04 GMT -5
If you think HC is "uber-woke" I suggest you're not very familiar with American higher education.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 25, 2021 8:58:01 GMT -5
If you think HC is "uber-woke" I suggest you're not very familiar with American higher education. If you don't think HC is "uber-woke" I suggest you are not very familiar with Holy Cross the last few years (I won't recite the list - it's all on the web...but you can check out the elongated mascot hand-wringing, Professor Lew, and a whole host of other public events and controversies. The new president is very much in line with that reputation.) They've got that reputation and have assiduously cultivated it. And I am not even suggesting it is a big turnoff for potential applicants nowadays. (FYI I have two daughters in college, work with high school seniors every day, and otherwise have some familiarity with American higher education.)
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Post by mm67 on Sept 25, 2021 9:15:47 GMT -5
Are there many small LACs in Div.1? Maybe, sports is not the way to increase the number of applicants? Maybe, sports are superficial and the problems at HC are based on deeper, more fundamental issues some of which may be out of the school's control? The school has more $ and better more varied facilities than it has ever had in its history. Even the once unfairly derided "ugly" Worcester "40 miles up the butt of Boston" has evolved into a very attractive place. Yet the school is dogged by a continued decline in the number of applicants. Can a small, historically narrow-based, Catholic liberal arts college survive As It Once Was in today's rapidly changing college landscape? Is the name of the school the "kiss of death"? Should the school sacrifice its core academic & religious values, lose its soul to achieve success? If we changed would we face the prospect of becoming another in a long list of second rate Catholic colleges? Can HC return & sustain its past role as one of the premier colleges in the US? Does our future rest in the stars or ...?
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Post by hcpride on Sept 25, 2021 9:41:44 GMT -5
The other factor is the M:F ratio, which has slid in recent years from near parity to about 45:55. Boston U and Georgetown are about 40:60. It would be a big mistake to cut sports. Because of Title IX, the only sports you would cut are male sports, and sports are critical to expanding the geographic reach of Holy Cross. The most recent CDS (2020-2021) posted for HC is about 42-58 for the new class. (This would be the current sophomore class, I believe). 40:60 might be in our future (although admissions could doubtlessly control this). Georgetown seems to be 44-56 BTW. Our large proportion of student athletes (assuming we either are at parity m-f in this large group or the large group skews a bit male) helps with our m-f ratio.
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Post by matunuck on Sept 25, 2021 10:22:03 GMT -5
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 25, 2021 10:34:41 GMT -5
So, what is the issue and what is/are the solution(s)?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 25, 2021 10:46:50 GMT -5
We need a big increase in PR efforts to raise awareness and build brand image--maybe even spend some $$$ on marketing
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