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Post by hc87 on Oct 8, 2016 20:06:55 GMT -5
We got hot for a week...it was great, yes.....let's not stahht printing "The Cross is Back" bumpah-stickahs just yet....
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Post by Ray on Oct 8, 2016 20:14:41 GMT -5
We got hot for a week...it was great, yes.....let's not stahht printing "The Cross is Back" bumpah-stickahs just yet.... We got hot for a month. And it was made possible because ADNP upgraded the basketball coach and infrastructure. He's completely overhauled the coaching staffs on campus (are Gibbons and Gilmore the only two holdovers from Regan? Pretty close at least.) He's overhauled the marketing/communications and the dept infrastructure. He's dramatically improved the fundraising, which as we speak is being turned into facilities improvements. That's the sum-total of his job. He doesn't directly win games on the field. He's unquestionably creating an environment that fosters better results on the field. That's going to take a little longer... but if you can't see that, you're just not paying attention. I know you're a football-first guy, and things aren't good there. But try using your eyes to see the bigger picture.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 8, 2016 20:19:52 GMT -5
We still lose...often badly.....in most sports.
Not saying NP isn't doing his job, but let's keep things in perspective, sports on the Hill haven't changed that much since Pine took ovah......a little more gloss/glitter? Yes, but we are still losing in most sports and are still an after-thought in D1 basketball and football.
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Post by Ray on Oct 8, 2016 20:35:26 GMT -5
You understate how deep the hole was. You can't see some glitzy new edifice on the horizon yet because you have to build from the ground up. Stop being willfully ignorant. The future of HC athletics is brighter now than it has been in a generation.
Most importantly, Pine has done a fantastic job in hiring coaches. He has giant amounts of credibility in finding the next FB coach, assuming that's what he decides to do.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 8, 2016 20:38:51 GMT -5
And to that I say, who the hell is Nate Pine? He should have fired Gilmore two years ago.....the Pine love here is a little ovah the top imo....have HC athletics (on the playing fields) really improved that much undah his tutelage? Asking this question is roughly as embarrassing as your "ovah" schtick. Or were you in a coma last March? Carmody hire was pretty simple. Hiring a former Big10 basketball coach who had success as an IVY head coach off the street is one thing, finding a FCS head coach is a whole 'nother ballgame. Pine hasn't done anything yet to show that he should have carte blanche to make this hire without consultation. If Gilmore is let go, I would like to see a search committee established with football minds and a Holy Cross background (Gordie Lockbaum, etc.) to fully vet the candidates for this extremely important position that will be walking into the primary target of our $85M investment in facilities. Let's not forget, Pine's mentor Kevin Anderson had no luck hiring coaches at Army and made a disastrous decision in bringing Randy Edsall to Maryland. What is Pine's football background? With schools like Oregon St, Cal, Army, and Maryland on the resume, we're not exactly talking about football powerhouses.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 8, 2016 20:41:54 GMT -5
Please....the hole has always been "deep".....most sports at HC not named football, basketball and baseball were after-thoughts long before Nate Pine stepped on campus.
Nate Pine wasn't hired to improve women's volleyball....he just wasn't.....if he can't get football strightened out, it's a major failing on his part imo.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 8, 2016 20:42:33 GMT -5
We got hot for a week...it was great, yes.....let's not stahht printing "The Cross is Back" bumpah-stickahs just yet.... We got hot for a month. And it was made possible because ADNP upgraded the basketball coach and infrastructure. He's completely overhauled the coaching staffs on campus (are Gibbons and Gilmore the only two holdovers from Regan? Pretty close at least.) He's overhauled the marketing/communications and the dept infrastructure. He's dramatically improved the fundraising, which as we speak is being turned into facilities improvements. That's the sum-total of his job. He doesn't directly win games on the field. He's unquestionably creating an environment that fosters better results on the field. That's going to take a little longer... but if you can't see that, you're just not paying attention. I know you're a football-first guy, and things aren't good there. But try using your eyes to see the bigger picture. With all that marketing improvement and black ops Fitton Field security added, what was attendance at Fitton today?
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Post by realism on Oct 8, 2016 20:53:49 GMT -5
And to that I say, who the hell is Nate Pine? He should have fired Gilmore two years ago.....the Pine love here is a little ovah the top imo....have HC athletics (on the playing fields) really improved that much undah his tutelage? Although I think it's too early to pass judgment on AD Pine's actual results, it may be appropriate to clarify that what "he has done and can do" doesn't insure performance improvement. A simple way to explain this is to examine the new football scheduling. On one level, some see the future schedules as solely a p.r. achievement at this time. Some would argue that even with consistent sub .500 results within the "new schedules," just the association with these name institutions will be a major accomplishment for H.C, as an institution. That, indeed, may be good enough for TPTB. Other constituents, like on this board, are under the impression that ADNP is miraculously orchestrating a new golden era for H.C. football that rivals the "glory days." Another sizable portion of the H.C. community has no interest in the subject at all. I gues we'll have to wait and see as the cover rolls off of the ADNP model to see what the expectations should have been back in 2016.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 8, 2016 21:09:09 GMT -5
You're smoking the same weed as the guy who wanted to replace Pujals with Bell.
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Post by alum on Oct 8, 2016 21:11:53 GMT -5
While I think that NP will try to hire a non HC person, if he were to consider someone with ties to the program, isn't Bill McGovern '85 an obvious choice?
Oh, and please stop with the "let's get GL and others involved in the decision" stuff. Leave it to the professionals.
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Post by bikeman on Oct 8, 2016 21:12:08 GMT -5
Les Miles??😊
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Post by hc87 on Oct 8, 2016 21:12:25 GMT -5
Seriously, it all basically comes down to: Do you want Gilmore leading the team onto Alumni Field in 2018 against BC?
I, for one, do not.
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Post by alum on Oct 8, 2016 21:16:39 GMT -5
Not going to happen, but one of my non HC brothers said that Brian Kelly would be a good choice....it does kind of make some sense....very, very unlikely though, but who knows? He's making a lot of money selling coffee. I don't think he would be interested.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 8, 2016 21:34:28 GMT -5
I think Pine is in a pickle.....though he may not want to hire someone with HC ties (Duff, Hull, McGovern etc)...the program almost needs one of those guys to return to it its former glory.....to sell it, embrace it etc etc
It'll be an interesting few months for sure.....
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 8, 2016 21:35:45 GMT -5
While I think that NP will try to hire a non HC person, if he were to consider someone with ties to the program, isn't Bill McGovern '85 an obvious choice? Oh, and please stop with the "let's get GL and others involved in the decision" stuff. Leave it to the professionals. The "FCS Head Coach Picker" professionals? The next football coach Pine hires will be his first, and there won't be a coach who won the Ivy and was a head coach in the Big10 sitting on the side of the road this time around the neighborhood. This idea that we shouldn't have anyone with a past connection to HC is preposterous. We should hire the best available coach for Holy Cross. Whether that is a current assistant at HC, former assistant at HC, former player at HC, or someone who couldn't even spell Worcester before they heard about this job is TOTALLY irrelevant. Eliminating names just because they have a past connection to the school would be idiotic.
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Post by crusader1970 on Oct 9, 2016 5:03:16 GMT -5
As a matter of interest, what does the head FB coach at HC pay? How does it compare to the same position at other PL and Ivy League schools?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 9, 2016 6:51:15 GMT -5
As a matter of interest, what does the head FB coach at HC pay? How does it compare to the same position at other PL and Ivy League schools? The head coach at HC makes less than the head hoops coach. Several years ago, by the process of subtraction from the Title IX dataset on HC football, I guesstimated the entire football coaching staff was paid around $1 million, IIRC. In 2014-15, the median head football coaching salary for all of FCS is $245,000; the median value of salaries for all football assistant coaches is $614,000. For the football HC, HC very likely pays less than all the Ivies, and less than the CAA. In the PL, HC very likely pays less than Fordham, and probably Lehigh. In 2014-15, the average salary for a head coach of a men's sport at HC was about $115,000. (There were nine such head coaches.) For Colgate, 8.5 head coaches, average salary was $112,000. Cornell, 13 such head coaches, average salary was $144,000. William & Mary, 7.5 such head coaches, average salary $146,000. Lehigh, 9 head coaches, $107,000 average. Richmond, 7 head coaches, $279,000 (distorted by basketball), UNH, 5.5 head coaches, $134,000.
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Post by CHC8485 on Oct 9, 2016 7:16:13 GMT -5
According to the latest available IRS 990 filing from GuideStar, for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2014, Tom Gilmore made $191,520 in reportable compensation and $50,774 in other compensation from the organization and related organizations.i
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Post by alum on Oct 9, 2016 8:14:20 GMT -5
While I think that NP will try to hire a non HC person, if he were to consider someone with ties to the program, isn't Bill McGovern '85 an obvious choice? Oh, and please stop with the "let's get GL and others involved in the decision" stuff. Leave it to the professionals. The "FCS Head Coach Picker" professionals?The next football coach Pine hires will be his first, and there won't be a coach who won the Ivy and was a head coach in the Big10 sitting on the side of the road this time around the neighborhood. This idea that we shouldn't have anyone with a past connection to HC is preposterous. We should hire the best available coach for Holy Cross. Whether that is a current assistant at HC, former assistant at HC, former player at HC, or someone who couldn't even spell Worcester before they heard about this job is TOTALLY irrelevant. Eliminating names just because they have a past connection to the school would be idiotic. Yes, the FCS Head Coach Picker professionals. They are called athletic directors, human resources professionals and search firms. You let the alums and donors get involved at the end in hopes that you can get their support, but they don't really get to pick the coach.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 9, 2016 8:53:40 GMT -5
For Georgetown, it should be easy to guesstimate the salary of the coaching staff. Georgetown reports zero athletically-related financial aid for football, football operating expenses of $400,000 and total football expenses of $1.7 million. Of the $1.3 million remainder, the two unknowns are recruiting expenses for football, and coaches salaries.
Brown, no financial aid; operating expenses for football $541,000, total expenses, $2,118,000. The Ivies spend a lot on recruiting, so recruiting costs would likely be substantially higher than Georgetown. My guesstimate would be that coaching salaries at Brown would be around $1.35 million. Brown may be the cheapest of the Ivies. _______________________________
Its my belief ADNP looks at the resources provided to a team, and how those resources compare with competitors. I do not know whether the PL shares the member schools NCAA revenue and expense reports with all the member schools, but, if it does, those reports would be a very important gauge of HC's financial competitiveness with its peers, in all sports.
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Post by crusader1970 on Oct 9, 2016 8:56:50 GMT -5
If I were HC, I would OVERPAY for this position (and the assistants) in order to better ensure that we would get applications from all those who might be interested in HC. With all the money we are spending on facilities, we need to get a first class coach and would not want to discourage some potential top applicants because of the salary offered. The amount of money positive publicity that this program could generate with a truly successful run would pay this back to the college several times over.
Then, if after another 5-6 seasons, there was not noticeable improvement, I would definitely consider dropping the sport.
In summary, spending money will not guarantee success, but going in with low budget numbers will almost certainly continue the present malaise.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 9, 2016 9:26:59 GMT -5
crusader1970, three (of 125) FCS schools reported that their generated revenue for football exceeded expenses. The median net revenue (the middle school of the three) was $201,000. HC will always lose money on football, ice hockey, and basketball. The only way to escape is to be in a conference with a lucrative broadcast contract. ________________________
Of the 125 FCS schools, only one reported that its generated revenue exceeded expenses for all men's sports. (I think its probably Dayton.)
For football, the FCS school with the highest generated revenue garnered $6.6 million (the FCS median was $991,000). The school with the highest expenses spent $8.9 million, median was $3.2 million.
69 FBS schools reported that football generated revenue exceeded expenses.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 9, 2016 9:29:29 GMT -5
I think we have well established that football loses money at our level. Its benefits are intangible to Holy Cross.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 9, 2016 9:40:27 GMT -5
I think we have well established that football loses money at our level. Its benefits are intangible to Holy Cross. Agreed. IMO, the issue is whether and when the resources allocated for HC football will be above the median for the PL, and approach the median for the CAA. When it came to M/W basketball, the allocated resources have been above (at times, well above) the PL median. CMB was not successful with those resources, and was sent on his way.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 9, 2016 11:33:16 GMT -5
The intangibles include, but not limited to, a deeper connection of alums to alma mater (to maintain and hopefully enhance the recent historic 50+% alumni giving - goal of 60%) and greater name recognition of Holy Cross nationally and beyond the narrow confines of New England, mid-Atlantic states and Chicago. The latter benefit includes the hope of getting a more national geographic distribution of the student body. Holy Cross has been viewed as a "national liberal arts college" in the past but as we have discussed here many times, that has really been a misnomer and one the president and Board have wanted to "correct" for some time. Fr. McFarland did not see athletics (success) as a vehicle towards that end, Fr. Boroughs absolutely does. They both had the same goal but have very different positions on the means to accomplish that goal.
Fr. Boroughs, IMHO, is not content for Holy Cross teams to simply "participate" in many sports as participation gets you very little recognition payback. He wants to "win" and will do everything legally and ethically possible to make that happen. With that philosophy, which I am sure has been communicated to Nate Pine, every coach, not just the football coach, will be expected to get results given the resources allocated to the particular sport.
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