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Post by Crosser on Apr 21, 2021 17:36:10 GMT -5
I'm not sure whether it's been the UMass climb to the top or the Bruins having a good season, but I find myself watching a lot more hockey this season. And now I've just been told that Twitter is talking about Hockey East being willing to take in HC, but the Railers are blocking it. I'm not super informed about Twitter or the politics of hockey, but I thought I should throw this out here. If it turns out to be fake news or if I'm treading somewhere I shouldn't, just let me know and I'll jettison this thread.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 21, 2021 17:47:16 GMT -5
I'm not sure whether it's been the UMass climb to the top or the Bruins having a good season, but I find myself watching a lot more hockey this season. And now I've just been told that Twitter is talking about Hockey East being willing to take in HC, but the Railers are blocking it. I'm not super informed about Twitter or the politics of hockey, but I thought I should throw this out here. If it turns out to be fake news or if I'm treading somewhere I shouldn't, just let me know and I'll jettison this thread. Keep the thread. UMass illustrates that good things could happen with the right new coach and a new league. That concept of the Railers blocking HC from using the DCU Center for Big East hockey to avoid dilution of the hockey ticket buying public has been raised before. It has been explained that the Railers were given exclusivity but only for a finite period that has expired. Perhaps they renegotiated that into their agreement, but the DCU is city owned and that would seem to be against their community mission to block the public from seeing potential events.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 21, 2021 19:53:40 GMT -5
The question of Hockey East affiliation has been a subject on this board and its predecessor, and the topic has been explored and argued ad nauseum.
The newly minted strategic plan for athletics has no mention of a potential change of conference to Hockey East for the men. There is somewhat ambiguous language about improvements to facilities to make HC more competitive in hockey (possibly meaning, in part, to help recruiting.) This was said for both the men and women, and the women ain't playing at the DCU.
Holy Cross is about to spend $300 million on new and renovated residence halls. The cost of that is likely to put a crimp on grand and bold ideas that will not pay for themselves. Playing at the DCU is not likely to be a net revenue gain for HC.
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Post by trimster on Apr 21, 2021 20:32:39 GMT -5
The question of Hockey East affiliation has been a subject on this board and its predecessor, and the topic has been explored and argued ad nauseum. The newly minted strategic plan for athletics has no mention of a potential change of conference to Hockey East for the men. There is somewhat ambiguous language about improvements to facilities to make HC more competitive in hockey (possibly meaning, in part, to help recruiting.) This was said for both the men and women, and the women ain't playing at the DCU. Holy Cross is about to spend $300 million on new and renovated residence halls. The cost of that is likely to put a crimp on grand and bold ideas that will not pay for themselves. Playing at the DCU is not likely to be a net revenue gain for HC. As someone pointed out in relation to the 5 year plan, if HC were exploring new conferences, they wouldn’t come out and say it. As far as the DCU costs are concerned, I believe the cost to rent it for a day is $9,500 based on a line in a recent story in the Worcester Telegram.
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Post by bfoley82 on Apr 22, 2021 1:54:47 GMT -5
The question of Hockey East affiliation has been a subject on this board and its predecessor, and the topic has been explored and argued ad nauseum. The newly minted strategic plan for athletics has no mention of a potential change of conference to Hockey East for the men. There is somewhat ambiguous language about improvements to facilities to make HC more competitive in hockey (possibly meaning, in part, to help recruiting.) This was said for both the men and women, and the women ain't playing at the DCU. Holy Cross is about to spend $300 million on new and renovated residence halls. The cost of that is likely to put a crimp on grand and bold ideas that will not pay for themselves. Playing at the DCU is not likely to be a net revenue gain for HC. As someone pointed out in relation to the 5 year plan, if HC were exploring new conferences, they wouldn’t come out and say it. As far as the DCU costs are concerned, I believe the cost to rent it for a day is $9,500 based on a line in a recent story in the Worcester Telegram. That is probably before expenses like security, facility changeover, ticketing etc...
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 22, 2021 6:44:50 GMT -5
Holy Cross has an emerging Title IX problem. The class of 2024 was 42:58 M/F.
That ratio is approaching Boston U's 40:60. Boston U spends more on women's sports than it does on men's sports, and its athletically-related financial aid is also split 40:60. To play men's lacrosse, Boston University gave up wrestling. Play football? Forget it.
Georgetown's ratio is 44:56; and Georgetown struggles (unable to award merit scollies for football) when it comes to the athletics budget because men's hoops (where the cost of the men's basketball team playing in the Big East was $13.5 million in 2018-19, about $11 million more than HC spent) distorts their athletics finances. Georgetown probably gets away with spending that much on hoops because men's hoops is a significant source of revenue. That cannot be said of any HC sport.
For HC, spending another $1-2 million a year playing men's ice hockey in Hockey East probably would lead to HC having to spend $1-2 million more on women's sports, as a Title IX offset.
Accepting that HC could rent the DCU for $10,000 a game, that's 1,000 tickets per game at $10 each simply to cover rink rental. That's revenue foregone. All the members of HE play on a campus rink, except UConn, so they don't lose ticket revenue.
Men's ice hockey, 2018-19 BC expenses $4.5M (revenue was $2.5M) BU expenses $5.6M lost money Northeastern $3.1M lost money Providence $4.7M lost money HC $1.8M lost money
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Post by HC92 on Apr 22, 2021 7:28:12 GMT -5
Not sure what happened to HE and HC but something did and it doesn’t seem to bode well for us becoming a men’s hockey member anytime soon. At one point a few years back, a person who would know told me HE for the men was a done deal. Apparently not.
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Post by trimster on Apr 22, 2021 7:31:28 GMT -5
Holy Cross has an emerging Title IX problem. The class of 2024 was 42:58 M/F. That ratio is approaching Boston U's 40:60. Boston U spends more on women's sports than it does on men's sports, and its athletically-related financial aid is also split 40:60. To play men's lacrosse, Boston University gave up wrestling. Play football? Forget it. Georgetown's ratio is 44:56; and Georgetown struggles (unable to award merit scollies for football) when it comes to the athletics budget because men's hoops (where the cost of the men's basketball team playing in the Big East was $13.5 million in 2018-19, about $11 million more than HC spent) distorts their athletics finances. Georgetown probably gets away with spending that much on hoops because men's hoops is a significant source of revenue. That cannot be said of any HC sport. For HC, spending another $1-2 million a year playing men's ice hockey in Hockey East probably would lead to HC having to spend $1-2 million more on women's sports, as a Title IX offset. Accepting that HC could rent the DCU for $10,000 a game, that's 1,000 tickets per game at $10 each simply to cover rink rental. That's revenue foregone. All the members of HE play on a campus rink, except UConn, so they don't lose ticket revenue. Men's ice hockey, 2018-19 BC expenses $4.5M (revenue was $2.5M) BU expenses $5.6M lost money Northeastern $3.1M lost money Providence $4.7M lost money HC $1.8M lost money Just curious PP, can you look up what HC loses on athletics.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 22, 2021 7:36:10 GMT -5
If one invests in the health and entertainment of students, has sports to help recruiting students of all types, and if sports draw financial support from alumni, I am not sure it is really a "loss."
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Post by trimster on Apr 22, 2021 8:26:19 GMT -5
If one invests in the health and entertainment of students, has sports to help recruiting students of all types, and sports draw financial support from alumni, I am not sure it is really a "loss." All good points which bring up the benefits of a successful athletic program.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 22, 2021 8:26:59 GMT -5
Holy Cross has an emerging Title IX problem. The class of 2024 was 42:58 M/F. That ratio is approaching Boston U's 40:60. Boston U spends more on women's sports than it does on men's sports, and its athletically-related financial aid is also split 40:60. To play men's lacrosse, Boston University gave up wrestling. Play football? Forget it. Georgetown's ratio is 44:56; and Georgetown struggles (unable to award merit scollies for football) when it comes to the athletics budget because men's hoops (where the cost of the men's basketball team playing in the Big East was $13.5 million in 2018-19, about $11 million more than HC spent) distorts their athletics finances. Georgetown probably gets away with spending that much on hoops because men's hoops is a significant source of revenue. That cannot be said of any HC sport. For HC, spending another $1-2 million a year playing men's ice hockey in Hockey East probably would lead to HC having to spend $1-2 million more on women's sports, as a Title IX offset. Accepting that HC could rent the DCU for $10,000 a game, that's 1,000 tickets per game at $10 each simply to cover rink rental. That's revenue foregone. All the members of HE play on a campus rink, except UConn, so they don't lose ticket revenue. Men's ice hockey, 2018-19 BC expenses $4.5M (revenue was $2.5M) BU expenses $5.6M lost money Northeastern $3.1M lost money Providence $4.7M lost money HC $1.8M lost money Just curious PP, can you look up what HC loses on athletics. The public data on HC revenue and expenses does not reveal the amount. That's because the revenue by sport column includes generated revenue (ticket sales, booster clubs, broadcast rights, NCAA distributions) and the college subsidy. The subsidy is how much the college spends to make up the difference between generated revenue and expenses. As BC shows generated revenue for some sports, one can gauge how much BC lost (or profited), so M/W hoops lost $3.3 million Football made $7+ million All other sports lost $2.1 million (though there is likely some subsidy for non-revenue sports). BC lost money in 2018-19, total amount unknown. HC spent $33 million on athletics in 2018-19. I am guessing that generated revenue was probably no more than $7-8 million. If my guess is in the ballpark, HC lost about $25 million. The best picture is obtained by looking at schools with athletic programs that run a profit. Notre Dame: >lost about $10 million on M/W hoops > had a profit of $65 million from football > lost $28 million on all sports other than football and basketball. Generated revenue for the all other sports was $8 million. (BC's revenue was more than 3x that, which is why I suggested it included subsidies for the 'Olympic' sports.)
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Post by trimster on Apr 22, 2021 8:36:07 GMT -5
Thank you. I assume merit based scholarship money is a big expense but that can probably be discounted by the average of need-based aid those students would have received if they didn’t receive a free ride via athletics.
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Post by matunuck on Apr 22, 2021 8:39:56 GMT -5
If one invests in the health and entertainment of students, has sports to help recruiting students of all types, and sports draw financial support from alumni, I am not sure it is really a "loss." Very true. Athletics add an important dimension to the college experience and shouldn't be assessed through a purely dollars and cents lens as one would for a for-profit business.
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Post by trimster on Apr 22, 2021 8:51:31 GMT -5
If one invests in the health and entertainment of students, has sports to help recruiting students of all types, and sports draw financial support from alumni, I am not sure it is really a "loss." Very true. Athletics add an important dimension to the college experience and shouldn't be assessed in a purely dollars and cents lens as one would for a for-profit business. Unfortunately, athletics looks to be an area of low hanging fruit when it comes to colleges saving money. Look at the number of sports colleges have announced they are eliminating in the last year as COVID induced financial problems have hit.
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Post by alum on Apr 22, 2021 10:12:12 GMT -5
Very true. Athletics add an important dimension to the college experience and shouldn't be assessed in a purely dollars and cents lens as one would for a for-profit business. Unfortunately, athletics looks to be an area of low hanging fruit when it comes to colleges saving money. Look at the number of sports colleges have announced they are eliminating in the last year as COVID induced financial problems have hit. I think some of that was along the lines of "don't let a good crisis go to waste."
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Post by crusader12 on Apr 22, 2021 10:39:11 GMT -5
We have no chance getting into HE and I am no longer speculating on it. Look what Sacred Heart and Bentley has done with their hockey facilities while we did NOTHING!!!! Throw a coat of paint on the walls and bury the rink in the Luth and call it an improvement. HE was not impressed that I can tell you! This is a waste of time and once again we will see another New England college jump over us on their way to a real conference. Gee where have I seen that before??? HC Athletics is a joke.
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Post by breezy on Apr 22, 2021 11:03:16 GMT -5
Not sure what happened to HE and HC.... At one point a few years back, a person who would know told me HE for the men was a done deal. Apparently not. I had the same experience; it was two or three years ago. A person in position to know told me that HE for the men was a done deal and that there was an agreement with the Railers regarding use of the DCU. But -- at least to date -- nothing has happened.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 22, 2021 11:36:23 GMT -5
Based on PP's info about Title IX, winning the AHA and getting to the NCAA tournament is the realistic goal. Much depends on the coaching hire.
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Post by trimster on Apr 22, 2021 12:12:30 GMT -5
We have no chance getting into HE and I am no longer speculating on it. Look what Sacred Heart and Bentley has done with their hockey facilities while we did NOTHING!!!! Throw a coat of paint on the walls and bury the rink in the Luth and call it an improvement. HE was not impressed that I can tell you! This is a waste of time and once again we will see another New England college jump over us on their way to a real conference. Gee where have I seen that before??? HC Athletics is a joke. While I feel and agree with your frustration, your closing statement is a bit harsh, especially to the current staff and student-athletes who had nothing to do with past choices including the Luth. I am confident in saying the individuals in our athletic department are busting their tails on a daily basis to represent the college well and bring pride to HC in their efforts. I have spent far too much time lamenting the decisions made by the HC powers that be with regards to the athletic program but despite that I have always been proud of the way my alma mater conducts itself in the ever-changing world of college athletics.
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Post by HC92 on Apr 22, 2021 14:52:09 GMT -5
Title IX does not require equal budgets for men’s and women’s sports. The % of female students in the population relative to the percentage of female student athletes could be an issue if there is an unmet need among our women students and the male:female ratio of students is different than the male:female ratio of athletes.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Apr 22, 2021 16:17:51 GMT -5
We have no chance getting into HE and I am no longer speculating on it. Look what Sacred Heart and Bentley has done with their hockey facilities while we did NOTHING!!!! Throw a coat of paint on the walls and bury the rink in the Luth and call it an improvement. HE was not impressed that I can tell you! This is a waste of time and once again we will see another New England college jump over us on their way to a real conference. Gee where have I seen that before??? HC Athletics is a joke. While I feel and agree with your frustration, your closing statement is a bit harsh, especially to the current staff and student-athletes who had nothing to do with past choices including the Luth. I am confident in saying the individuals in our athletic department are busting their tails on a daily basis to represent the college well and bring pride to HC in their efforts. I have spent far too much time lamenting the decisions made by the HC powers that be with regards to the athletic program but despite that I have always been proud of the way my alma mater conducts itself in the ever-changing world of college athletics. In today’s economic landscape, not having gone all in with Hockey East appears to be a prudent decision. The Big East and Hockey East are shiny objects, that allure the casual fan, but in reality they are a fools gold regarding a financial windfall for a college or university. In particular, citing Forbes Magazine, and their assessment of Providence, in their article regarding College Financial Grades 2021 for Private Colleges and Universities Quoting Forbes..... “ Providence College is one of the most prominent schools in the bottom third of the rankings,sliding to a C- grade, after posting a B five years ago.” Providence College has a 1.63 rating with a C- grade. Note...Providence College participates in both The Big East and Hockey East. Another Big East school, Seton Hall University, has a 1.89 rating and a C grade. DePaul University has a financial GPA of 2.37 and a grade of C+. Butler has a GPA of 2.42 and a C + grade. In Hockey East, Northeastern has a 2.82 GPA and a B- grade. Boston College with a 3.92 GPA and A grade and Boston University with a 3.82, with a grade of A- HC priorities and current athletic plan are properly aligned considering today’s economic landscape. Holy Cross Forbes Rating is A+ with a score of 4.32. Yale, Princeton, MIT, Notre Dame, Dartmouth, Amherst, Rice, Harvard, Stanford, for example, have a Grade of A+ and achieved a GPA with the top score being 4.50. HC has spent 250 million in the last five years on facilities and will be spending 300 million more in the next five for renovation and new construction for on campus housing. My two cents, the need for upgrading on campus housing to accommodate the entire student population supersedes spending 30-50 million or more on a Hockey Rink. Sacred Heart has an endowment of 189.8 million and is spending 70 million on a Hockey Rink? They should be building an facility that can accommodate Men’s and Women’s basketball and Men’s and Women’s Volleyball as well as Hockey. Sacred Heart University Forbes rating is 2.20 with a C+ grade. Hockey East stipulation of a 4,000 seat on campus arena, particularly when we are seeing a decline in overall attendance, seems like a deal breaker. Another point, parking will be an issue. The days when school busses ran from the old Carlin Parking lot to the Hart Center from 1975-1980 have passed. The campus footprint can not accommodate that much space being dedicated to parking including students, staff, and fans without another garage being built.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 22, 2021 17:33:05 GMT -5
Two cents doesn't seem that valuable coming right after $300 million and $250 million. However your points are solid. Similarly there is no actual deficiency in the Hart Center arena, it's just in comparison to what other schools have chosen to do it appears to have low value. In reality it supports two varsity sports (M&W Hockey) as well as other uses, is fully paid for, and handles the crowds that HC currently gets. A larger arena is right downtown if our new coach turns the program around and we start turning fans away.
A case can also be made that getting to the NCAA out of the AHA has more value than not getting there out of HE. The irony is we aren't doing that in the easier league to do it in. The right coach should be able to at least get the team into contention in our current league.
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Post by beachbound on Apr 22, 2021 22:29:59 GMT -5
The hockey program is going to get worse before it gets better. As HC continues a search for a new coach, most of the other schools in the AHA are bringing in both good recruits and getting players from the transfer portal. SHU has 5 players coming in via transfer and Bentley has four, for example. ADMB has a monumental task getting us to a place where we are competitive in the AHA. I think that should be the focus for the 5yr plan. HE should be a consideration in the future as we helped them by adding and funding a women’s team when the UMass schools don’t offer women’s hockey but we need to stabilize our men’s program first. We give 18 scholarships and need a new coach that can sell HC and the benefits of being an HC grad long after leaving the Hill.
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Post by beachbound on Apr 22, 2021 22:33:49 GMT -5
Btw, UConn’s new facility is $70mm and less than 3,000 occupancy. 1,300 seats and the rest benches. Solely for the women’s team and the men will continue to play in Hartford, so I think the on campus 4,000 seat requirement is a pre-covid requirement that will die in this new environment.
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Post by bfoley82 on Apr 22, 2021 23:41:05 GMT -5
The hockey program is going to get worse before it gets better. As HC continues a search for a new coach, most of the other schools in the AHA are bringing in both good recruits and getting players from the transfer portal. SHU has 5 players coming in via transfer and Bentley has four, for example. ADMB has a monumental task getting us to a place where we are competitive in the AHA. I think that should be the focus for the 5yr plan. HE should be a consideration in the future as we helped them by adding and funding a women’s team when the UMass schools don’t offer women’s hockey but we need to stabilize our men’s program first. We give 18 scholarships and need a new coach that can sell HC and the benefits of being an HC grad long after leaving the Hill. Then you aren't going to be good in hockey ever....Hockey student athletes are mostly 20 year old freshmen and have dreams of still playing in the NHL or in the minors. When you compare it to baseball or football, those kids are highly unlikely to ever lace them up again when compare to hockey and so many leagues around the world.
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