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Post by zambonihomie13 on Nov 2, 2016 12:34:27 GMT -5
A lot to unpack in this discussion:
First, it seems unfair to compare Union to UConn. One has a student enrollment of 2,242 and is located over 2 hours away, the other has a student enrollment of almost 30,000, is located less than an hour away, has four national championships, and is a top 10 all-time program. Additionally, and this is the most important part, UConn will never ever ever play at the Hart Center.
Second, the reality of the situation is this: the Women are going D1 and the Atlantic Hockey Conference is expanding to 18 scholarships. So unless HC men remains at 14 and chooses to be the worst team in the worst conference in the country, there will be budget increases in hockey. This would also put HC Women's team in a bind, as their is no AH Women's equivalent. This paragraph is essentially the crux of the issue.
Third, this is in nowhere near the UMass situation. 1. There is already a top tier conference awaiting our arrival. UMass was booted from the freaking MAC. 2. We've beaten 2 out of the last 3 national champions this year, with four less scholarships than them. We can absolutely compete and already are. And as an aside, we are never joining the Big East in basketball. I wish I was wrong, but that ship has sailed.
I am disappointed in the attendance. But to point to it as reason why HE will never work is laughable. First, it ignores the attendance against BC (an actual HE opponent.) Second, it ignores the fact that for years, HC hockey has been playing in the nation's worst conference against no name teams. That doesn't exactly engender the kind of support that will sell out for a Tuesday night game in November against a largely D3 school. Does that mean that support cannot be cultivated through a conference schedule with local, elite teams, exciting & televised games, etc.? Imagine if Duquesne refused to join the PL in football because it once hosted North Dakota State (the 2014 national champion) and didn't sell out (despite the fact it's been in the worst conference for years prior)? Or better yet, imagine if HC didn't join the BE because it can't sell out the Hart? Because in the 2015-2016 seasons, basketball averaged only about 500 more people per game than hockey at HC.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 2, 2016 13:31:00 GMT -5
Would the Hart be packed if Iona, Yale, Temple, Long Beach State or Boise State played HC? Because, again, that's the CBB equivalent of Union. Now, if North Dakota, BC, or BU played at the Hart, I'm confident it would be SRO. If the hoops team started as well as the hockey team has, they would have more than 900 vs those teams you mention
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Post by zambonihomie13 on Nov 2, 2016 14:08:22 GMT -5
Would the Hart be packed if Iona, Yale, Temple, Long Beach State or Boise State played HC? Because, again, that's the CBB equivalent of Union. Now, if North Dakota, BC, or BU played at the Hart, I'm confident it would be SRO. If the hoops team started as well as the hockey team has, they would have more than 900 vs those teams you mention Yes, if the hoops team beat two of the last 3 national champions, they would have more than 900 against Long Beach State. Basketball will always be more popular than hockey. But in the current athletic landscape, the chances of HC beating two of the last 3 national champions in basketball in a single season are slim to none. But this isn't zero sum, we can root for both hockey and basketball, and want the best for both.
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Post by zambonihomie13 on Nov 2, 2016 14:09:26 GMT -5
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 2, 2016 14:20:03 GMT -5
Would the Hart be packed if Iona, Yale, Temple, Long Beach State or Boise State played HC? Because, again, that's the CBB equivalent of Union. Now, if North Dakota, BC, or BU played at the Hart, I'm confident it would be SRO. If the hoops team started as well as the hockey team has, they would have more than 900 vs those teams you mention No kidding. They also would have more than 900 versus PL competition, like they averaged last season. It's on a relative scale. Hart hockey capacity is around 1,200 - 1,400 for hockey, right? Basketball is 4,000?
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Post by HC92 on Nov 2, 2016 15:45:22 GMT -5
If the hoops team started as well as the hockey team has, they would have more than 900 vs those teams you mention No kidding. They also would have more than 900 versus PL competition, like they averaged last season. It's on a relative scale. Hart hockey capacity is around 1,200 - 1,400 for hockey, right? Basketball is 4,000? Why does the capacity of the arenas matter to the issue of who is drawing better if we're not selling out?
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 2, 2016 15:57:53 GMT -5
No kidding. They also would have more than 900 versus PL competition, like they averaged last season. It's on a relative scale. Hart hockey capacity is around 1,200 - 1,400 for hockey, right? Basketball is 4,000? Why does the capacity of the arenas matter to the issue of who is drawing better if we're not selling out? You're right, it doesn't. What I should have said is that regardless of how both program's are performing, basketball tends to draw more than basketball due to the sport's popularity among students and with locals. Interestingly enough though, in recent years, the hockey attendance has actually been similar to basketball.
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Post by HC92 on Nov 2, 2016 16:03:57 GMT -5
I hope the attendance for both keeps going up to the point where capacity limitations are impacting attendance. Should be a fun winter in the Hart Center.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 3, 2016 9:45:00 GMT -5
Third, this is in nowhere near the UMass situation. 1. There is already a top tier conference awaiting our arrival. UMass was booted from the freaking MAC. 2. We've beaten 2 out of the last 3 national champions this year, with four less scholarships than them. We can absolutely compete and already are. . It's a huge leap to think that because we beat two teams that were successful in previous years, in games that were a "low priority" for them versus the Stanley Cup for us, we can now make an enormous leap to competing in the Hockey East every weekend for a full season. We haven't even made it through a round of the Atlantic Hockey tournament the past two years, have we?
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 3, 2016 10:02:42 GMT -5
Uh, I am not a huge hockey fan but think the "Stanley Cup" for Holy Cross was the win against #1 seed Minnesota in the NCAAs. And while no one would successfully argue against the games against the nationally ranked teams meant more to us than them, I am sure neither their players nor coaches really didn't care whether they won or not, if for no other reason than pride not to lose to such a lowly team as the Cross. And while it was posted that they were past national champs, the success was because they are now nationally ranked not because of their past laurels.
As for competing in the HE every weekend, I don't think anyone expects that would happen overnight. But playing at that level of competition would enhance the attractiveness of playing for the Crusaders among recruits.
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Post by bfoley82 on Nov 3, 2016 10:11:07 GMT -5
A lot to unpack in this discussion: First, it seems unfair to compare Union to UConn. One has a student enrollment of 2,242 and is located over 2 hours away, the other has a student enrollment of almost 30,000, is located less than an hour away, has four national championships, and is a top 10 all-time program. Additionally, and this is the most important part, UConn will never ever ever play at the Hart Center. Second, the reality of the situation is this: the Women are going D1 and the Atlantic Hockey Conference is expanding to 18 scholarships. So unless HC men remains at 14 and chooses to be the worst team in the worst conference in the country, there will be budget increases in hockey. This would also put HC Women's team in a bind, as their is no AH Women's equivalent. This paragraph is essentially the crux of the issue. Third, this is in nowhere near the UMass situation. 1. There is already a top tier conference awaiting our arrival. UMass was booted from the freaking MAC. 2. We've beaten 2 out of the last 3 national champions this year, with four less scholarships than them. We can absolutely compete and already are. And as an aside, we are never joining the Big East in basketball. I wish I was wrong, but that ship has sailed. I am disappointed in the attendance. But to point to it as reason why HE will never work is laughable. First, it ignores the attendance against BC (an actual HE opponent.) Second, it ignores the fact that for years, HC hockey has been playing in the nation's worst conference against no name teams. That doesn't exactly engender the kind of support that will sell out for a Tuesday night game in November against a largely D3 school. Does that mean that support cannot be cultivated through a conference schedule with local, elite teams, exciting & televised games, etc.? Imagine if Duquesne refused to join the PL in football because it once hosted North Dakota State (the 2014 national champion) and didn't sell out (despite the fact it's been in the worst conference for years prior)? Or better yet, imagine if HC didn't join the BE because it can't sell out the Hart? Because in the 2015-2016 seasons, basketball averaged only about 500 more people per game than hockey at HC. Couple of issues here.... UMass was FORCED out of the MAC because the MAC wanted them to become a FULL member of the conference including basketball, field hockey etc which would of added even more money to their athletic department. Yea, Holy Cross drew 3884 against Boston College but only 2142 against Providence College as both programs are DEFENDING Hockey East champs last season. How many people are going to show up for Maine? Vermont? UConn? UNH (absolute disaster at how bad they have become)? Hockey is bigger in all the Hockey East schools except for Providence, UConn, UMass, and Notre Dame (leaving Hockey East). The rest of the conference Basketball is a secondary sport. We all know Boston College basketball only draws against Duke and UNC. My opinion on Holy Cross Hockey is the fact they have the BEST chance to win a national championship out of all the athletic teams. Only four wins needed to get that title and RIT (one of your no-name schools) made a Frozen Four in 2010.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Nov 3, 2016 10:12:13 GMT -5
Would the Hart be packed if Iona, Yale, Temple, Long Beach State or Boise State played HC? Because, again, that's the CBB equivalent of Union. Now, if North Dakota, BC, or BU played at the Hart, I'm confident it would be SRO. Pretty shaky logic trying to keep everything to scale there.
But I do think that this speaks to the fact that College Hockey just isn't all that popular, and thus why we need to be very careful about spending significant money to make the jump to Hockey East. I worry that this is far closer to UMASS football jumping to 1-A football and not being competitive in games in front of nobody at Gillette Stadium than it is to a move like the basketball team making the jump to the Big East and truly exciting a Central Mass fan base. How is SoV's logic shaky? He makes a valid comparo. The shaky logic is yours in comparing HC to HE as to UMass to 1A,
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Post by HC92 on Nov 3, 2016 10:27:59 GMT -5
"Yea, Holy Cross drew 3884 against Boston College but only 2142 against Providence College as both programs are DEFENDING Hockey East champs last season. How many people are going to show up for Maine? Vermont? UConn? UNH (absolute disaster at how bad they have become)?"
If we join Hockey East, we will have to do a lot of re-branding/re-marketing of HC Hockey as a big-time program in arguably the best league in the country. The expectation would be that, with the elevated profile of the program, we'd get to the point where fans are coming to see HC rather than the opponent. It would take time and energy, but there's no reason we couldn't draw 3000 against the lower half of HE and 5000 against the upper half.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Nov 3, 2016 10:43:17 GMT -5
For those squawking about attendance - anyone who thinks the ferkakta Railers will draw more than a thousand on a Tuesday nite in October for anyone other than possibly the Manchester Whatevers, you are nuts.
The opposing teams fans in HE will come, and they did for the BC game. That's what aids the viability of HE. The fans of an ECHL team in Ft. Wayne Indiana coming to Worc.? Not so much. The owner of the Railers better be ready for a rude awakening if he thinks he's gonna draw.
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Post by HC92 on Nov 3, 2016 11:39:51 GMT -5
As a comparison, on a Saturday night in late October 2012, UConn played #8 Union before an announced crowd of 946 in Storrs. The next year, they played before an announced crowd of 1048 on a Friday night in Storrs. The next year, UConn's first in Hockey East, they played Union before 3570 on a Saturday night in December in Bridgeport.
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Post by joe on Nov 3, 2016 12:15:36 GMT -5
How this is still a discussion and hasn't actually happened yet is mind boggling. What more can people ask of HC other than beating Providence to prove that we belong in the HE? And how unfathomable is it that people are still actually talking about the pros and cons of utilizing a major site like the DCU which is around the corner as a means of making that happen? It's not like the DCU has a backup of million dollar acts and teams that are climbing over each other to get in. Stop with the million excuses and half baked data culled from google and just get it done ADNP - for crying out loud!
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Post by zambonihomie13 on Nov 3, 2016 13:08:15 GMT -5
A lot to unpack in this discussion: First, it seems unfair to compare Union to UConn. One has a student enrollment of 2,242 and is located over 2 hours away, the other has a student enrollment of almost 30,000, is located less than an hour away, has four national championships, and is a top 10 all-time program. Additionally, and this is the most important part, UConn will never ever ever play at the Hart Center. Second, the reality of the situation is this: the Women are going D1 and the Atlantic Hockey Conference is expanding to 18 scholarships. So unless HC men remains at 14 and chooses to be the worst team in the worst conference in the country, there will be budget increases in hockey. This would also put HC Women's team in a bind, as their is no AH Women's equivalent. This paragraph is essentially the crux of the issue. Third, this is in nowhere near the UMass situation. 1. There is already a top tier conference awaiting our arrival. UMass was booted from the freaking MAC. 2. We've beaten 2 out of the last 3 national champions this year, with four less scholarships than them. We can absolutely compete and already are. And as an aside, we are never joining the Big East in basketball. I wish I was wrong, but that ship has sailed. I am disappointed in the attendance. But to point to it as reason why HE will never work is laughable. First, it ignores the attendance against BC (an actual HE opponent.) Second, it ignores the fact that for years, HC hockey has been playing in the nation's worst conference against no name teams. That doesn't exactly engender the kind of support that will sell out for a Tuesday night game in November against a largely D3 school. Does that mean that support cannot be cultivated through a conference schedule with local, elite teams, exciting & televised games, etc.? Imagine if Duquesne refused to join the PL in football because it once hosted North Dakota State (the 2014 national champion) and didn't sell out (despite the fact it's been in the worst conference for years prior)? Or better yet, imagine if HC didn't join the BE because it can't sell out the Hart? Because in the 2015-2016 seasons, basketball averaged only about 500 more people per game than hockey at HC. Couple of issues here.... UMass was FORCED out of the MAC because the MAC wanted them to become a FULL member of the conference including basketball, field hockey etc which would of added even more money to their athletic department. Yea, Holy Cross drew 3884 against Boston College but only 2142 against Providence College as both programs are DEFENDING Hockey East champs last season. How many people are going to show up for Maine? Vermont? UConn? UNH (absolute disaster at how bad they have become)? Hockey is bigger in all the Hockey East schools except for Providence, UConn, UMass, and Notre Dame (leaving Hockey East). The rest of the conference Basketball is a secondary sport. We all know Boston College basketball only draws against Duke and UNC. My opinion on Holy Cross Hockey is the fact they have the BEST chance to win a national championship out of all the athletic teams. Only four wins needed to get that title and RIT (one of your no-name schools) made a Frozen Four in 2010. I should have clarified what I meant with UMass. They were joining a less than ideal conference, which didn't end amicably. Their move was shortsighted and not a good parallel for ours with HE. Of course, HC will draw less against school not named BC. But as HC92 notes, attendance will presumably rise with the elevation of the program. PC, UConn, UMass and Notre Dame all play other sports (basketball) in conferences that HC will unfortunately never even sniff. All things being equal, I agree that basketball will be more popular than hockey, even in the PL. If HC is dominating and bringing in quality OOC opponents, basketball will reign supreme. But, if they're simply good, I would be love to see the attendance comparison between a January game against Colgate in basketball and a HC hockey game against a bad HE opponent like UNH. Not that HC would suddenly become a hockey school, just that the hockey game in that scenario would be more desirable than the basketball game to students, alumni, and locals. Despite the username and arguments I make, I prefer basketball to hockey. If the option was to drop hockey and every other sport not named football in order to get basketball into the BE, I would do it in a heartbeat. But that is not an option now nor will it be in the foreseeable future. But we do have an opportunity to join an elite conference in the 4th most popular college sport, and think we should find a way to make it work.
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Post by bfoley82 on Nov 3, 2016 13:12:27 GMT -5
BTW, I am for Holy Cross in Hockey East...I just wish people that can make a difference see the opportunity they have here.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Nov 3, 2016 13:17:55 GMT -5
BTW, I am for Holy Cross in Hockey East...I just wish people that can make a difference see the opportunity they have here. They DO see it, and are trying to get it done. It will just take more time than hoped.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 3, 2016 13:52:09 GMT -5
How many the 900 or so who attended the Brown and Union games were students?
Is not on-campus rink attendance, regardless of the school, largely dependent on whether students are on extended break? Looking at the academic calendar, students are gone / studying from mid-December to the fourth week of January. And toss in Thanksgiving week as a lost cause when it comes to attendance.
In 2016-17, HC students are away / hitting the books from December 10 through January 24. Also there is nearly a two week break in the beginning of March.
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Post by CHC8485 on Nov 3, 2016 14:41:37 GMT -5
... Also there is nearly a two week break in the beginning of March. Wait. What??? I was planning on renting out HC19's room to help pay tuiition and thought I only had to kick the tenants out for 9 days in March. When did they extend it to nearly 2 weeks??
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 3, 2016 15:58:52 GMT -5
... Also there is nearly a two week break in the beginning of March. Wait. What??? I was planning on renting out HC19's room to help pay tuiition and thought I only had to kick the tenants out for 9 days in March. When did they extend it to nearly 2 weeks?? HC19, surely being a diligent student, will be present for every scheduled class on Friday. Others, though, will mentally and physically be far from the ice and cold of Worcester. ______ I do believe that HC's shifting from a calendar where the first semester ended in January (followed by a short break) put the kibosh on ever again averaging 4,000 for hoops at the Hart.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Nov 3, 2016 18:05:26 GMT -5
Wait. What??? I was planning on renting out HC19's room to help pay tuiition and thought I only had to kick the tenants out for 9 days in March. When did they extend it to nearly 2 weeks?? HC19, surely being a diligent student, will be present for every scheduled class on Friday. Others, though, will mentally and physically be far from the ice and cold of Worcester. ______ I do believe that HC's shifting from a calendar where the first semester ended in January (followed by a short break) put the kibosh on ever again averaging 4,000 for hoops at the Hart. Your thinking students actually drive the attendance at the Hart clearly shows that you haven't seen a game in almost 10 years.
Ever banging out the Hart again has a LOT more to do with locals than it does with students.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 3, 2016 18:20:11 GMT -5
HC19, surely being a diligent student, will be present for every scheduled class on Friday. Others, though, will mentally and physically be far from the ice and cold of Worcester. ______ I do believe that HC's shifting from a calendar where the first semester ended in January (followed by a short break) put the kibosh on ever again averaging 4,000 for hoops at the Hart. Your thinking students actually drive the attendance at the Hart clearly shows that you haven't seen a game in almost 20 years.
Ever banging out the Hart again has a LOT more to do with locals than it does with students.
So in the glory days of attendance at the Hart, students in the stands were few and far between? Supposedly, for the NIT semi-final in 1961, HC bused 1100 students to/from MSG. That would have been about half the enrollment.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Nov 3, 2016 18:33:04 GMT -5
Your thinking students actually drive the attendance at the Hart clearly shows that you haven't seen a game in almost 20 years.
Ever banging out the Hart again has a LOT more to do with locals than it does with students.
So in the glory days of attendance at the Hart, students in the stands were few and far between?Supposedly, for the NIT semi-final in 1961, HC bused 1100 students to/from MSG. That would have been about half the enrollment. Ah - no...
But that is the case these days - and that is what you were referring to, as you stated that filling the Hart would be impossible ever again due to the new academic calendar; and the academic calendar has little to do with ever filling the Hart for hoops again.
Obviously you don't realize this - but students don't exactly fill the bleachers these days (though attendance was up last season). Hockey is BY FAR the best student-supported sport on campus, surpasses every hoop game, and has for years.
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