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Post by Non Alum Dave on Nov 16, 2016 4:20:30 GMT -5
Some early morning pushback (new job, can't get to the board during the day for now ): While I agree in summary with most of you (yes, losing by 40+ sucks!), I'm not on board with any "the season is lost" sentiments, or "we had no game plan". It looked to me very early that 1) we knew we couldn't dribble drive through the zone, 2) we were going to have to hit some 3's, and 3) we needed to really try to get some baseline cuts and feeds from the high post. Problem, was, Syracuse did not allow it. In the old days, while we were sometimes overmatched in certain positions against the big boys, we at least had guys like Pat W, Szatko and Sankes that could match up some. Now, we have missmatches at all 5 positions, no matter what lineup we go to. Not easy to shoot when every single perimeter guy has like, 3-8 inches in height as an advantage (as well as wingspan). I suppose I could be mad at Malachi and JF for not being 6-10 (JF did fight, which I liked. As SoV mentioned, though, not having a face up game hurts). Defensively, while we used to be able to use the clock to our advantage against the big boys (by confusing them), we are not confusing anyone now. And even when we are in position, again, there's the size differential. I did not expect to lose by these margins, but I also wasn't expecting a Sweet 16 appearance either. It's early; lineups could very well be different 2 months from now. And really, last year we started out with a 3 point win against Marist and a 17 point loss to Brown. Are we really worse off now then at this time a year ago?
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Syracuse
Nov 16, 2016 5:09:32 GMT -5
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Post by ncaam on Nov 16, 2016 5:09:32 GMT -5
We had a low 20 loss to cuse a couple years ago. We competed better. The year before I believe AT and MA were frosh starters vs unc where we led in the 2nd half. This team would not lead unc in the second half. Why? Recruiting is down. Can you imagine CLS, JS or TC starting on that team? No way. We competed for Gasparini and Nelson two frosh starters for AU. They preferred AU over HC. Small sample, but..... Who replaces AT, MA and RC next year?
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 16, 2016 6:34:53 GMT -5
OK, you guys have convinced me. After our two big losses to start the season against top tier opponents, Carmody should be fired. I hope Nate has a low buy-out clause in his contract. Time to clean house.
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Syracuse
Nov 16, 2016 6:41:09 GMT -5
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Post by HC1843 on Nov 16, 2016 6:41:09 GMT -5
We had a low 20 loss to cuse a couple years ago. We competed better. The year before I believe AT and MA were frosh starters vs unc where we led in the 2nd half. This team would not lead unc in the second half. Why? Recruiting is down. Can you imagine CLS, JS or TC starting on that team? No way. We competed for Gasparini and Nelson two frosh starters for AU. They preferred AU over HC. Small sample, but..... Who replaces AT, MA and RC next year? Recruiting is on the upswing. AT will not be a big loss, a loss but more because he is a senior than a fantastic player. MA and RC will be losses, but the frosh are frosh and need time to develop. CLS is older and more ready to play, and let's not forget your analysis is based on us playing two top teams two games into year 2 of CBC's reign. He has a lot to fix from CMB. You also are asking if our new recruits - as frosh - would start on a team of which half its players were Willard's recruits. Btw, who is Matts? Cheers.
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Syracuse
Nov 16, 2016 7:25:12 GMT -5
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Post by lou on Nov 16, 2016 7:25:12 GMT -5
My first trip to the Dome. Great experience. Bumped into a few local alums, cuse fans but also had their purple on. Cuse was lights out so that was the game, and when they missed they got the rebounds so we had little chance.I liked our effort vs the zone, use up most of the clock then worked the the middle and the baseline, the passing was very crisp. CBC knew exactly what he was doing, and we are going to be pretty goodagainst zones this year. When su used man for a while in the 2nd our PO clicked again with great passing. Our D was OK, su was just too big. The team was prepared and when they are out there its all business so they were happy to be in the Dome, but they're trying to win, when they're not no one likes it. I enjoyed the evening
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Post by JRGNYR on Nov 16, 2016 7:55:59 GMT -5
OK, you guys have convinced me. After our two big losses to start the season against top tier opponents, Carmody should be fired. I hope Nate has a low buy-out clause in his contract. Time to clean house. It's a good thing I'm fluent in sarcasm.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Nov 16, 2016 8:32:02 GMT -5
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: MB's helter-sketler style was better suited for OOC play, which is merely lipstick in the grand scheme of things. These games mean nothing other than a 85K payday for HC, and a chance for the kids to play at places like Syr and Kan. AT gets to tell his grandkids someday that he dropped a dozen on the 'cuse. That's it.
Carm's style of play is MUCH better suited to the PL, and winning the PL is the ONLY way HC gets to the NCAA's. That is the goal, and it was accomplished in year one.
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Post by crusader1970 on Nov 16, 2016 8:50:40 GMT -5
Carm's style of play is MUCH better suited to the PL, and winning the PL is the ONLY way HC gets to the NCAA's. That is the goal, and it was accomplished in year one. Well said. I agree about 98%. The only thing that bothers me is that 40 pt losses kill our RPI if we win the PL and stick us with a 1 or 2 seed in the first round.
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Post by Ray on Nov 16, 2016 9:23:50 GMT -5
I think what we saw this week is consistent with what we saw vs. Oregon last year... we're completely exposed on the defensive end when playing up a level like this. We're too short/slow to play M2M. The 1-3-1, while effective in PL play, just gets shredded by bigger teams that can go over the top of it... and also leads to us getting crushed on the boards.
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Post by res on Nov 16, 2016 9:45:23 GMT -5
Carm's style of play is MUCH better suited to the PL, and winning the PL is the ONLY way HC gets to the NCAA's. That is the goal, and it was accomplished in year one. Well said. I agree about 98%. The only thing that bothers me is that 40 pt losses kill our RPI if we win the PL and stick us with a 1 or 2 seed in the first round. Losing by 40 has no greater effect on RPI than losing by one. Might it affect seeding later on? Possibly, but I doubt by much.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 16, 2016 9:47:55 GMT -5
Getting a 14 seed is a real long shot
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 16, 2016 9:51:07 GMT -5
Getting a 14 seed is a real long shot For this HC team or the PL in general? Average PL tournament seed going back to 2005 is exactly a 14.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Nov 16, 2016 9:53:29 GMT -5
KenPom's site has Syracuse as the tallest team in the country and Holy Cross at #277
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Post by Chu Chu on Nov 16, 2016 12:03:16 GMT -5
KenPom's site has Syracuse as the tallest team in the country and Holy Cross at #277 The tallest team in the country is right! The Orange height was a huge factor, and their long wing span really helped the famous Syracuse 2-3 zone. Our guys looked small out there, and they were really physically overmatched as far as inside scoring was concerned. AT had some initial success from beyond the arc, but SU answered right back with their own 3s, so we could never open things up. I am glad we play games like this, and I think it will help the team in the long run as they develop throughout the year. Remember, we improve with age! I'll bet we do much better against UMass!
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 16, 2016 15:54:59 GMT -5
I think what we saw this week is consistent with what we saw vs. Oregon last year... we're completely exposed on the defensive end when playing up a level like this. We're too short/slow to play M2M. The 1-3-1, while effective in PL play, just gets shredded by bigger teams that can go over the top of it... and also leads to us getting crushed on the boards. I echo the sentiments comparing these two games with the Oregon game last year. I don't think any expected to even be 1-1 through these first two games, and it is certainly a long season, but I can't help but see an ugly trend developing against good team, and fear that Carmody's system is some kind of cousin to Milan's. While Camrody actually at least has an offensive system, his overall coaching philosophy is similar in that we are not going to be a program that dissect's film on opponents and finds weaknesses that we can exploit. We are not going to be a team that has a defensive gameplan that is geared towards taking away strengths from our opponents and making them beat us elsewhere (i.e. holding Dwayne Wade to 8 points from the field and making Travis f****** Diener have the game of his life to beat us). We are just going to roll the Princeton O out there, maybe play a little 1-3-1, maybe play a little 2-3, maybe play a little man, and hope we make more shots that the opponent.
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Syracuse
Nov 16, 2016 15:58:15 GMT -5
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 16, 2016 15:58:15 GMT -5
Asked what he would take away from the game, Holy Cross coach Bill Carmody had a succinct response: "Nothing."
Well, that is a sardonic answer. I am sure we took away some $$$$ from the game.
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Post by dadominate on Nov 16, 2016 16:14:06 GMT -5
I think what we saw this week is consistent with what we saw vs. Oregon last year... we're completely exposed on the defensive end when playing up a level like this. We're too short/slow to play M2M. The 1-3-1, while effective in PL play, just gets shredded by bigger teams that can go over the top of it... and also leads to us getting crushed on the boards. I echo the sentiments comparing these two games with the Oregon game last year. I don't think any expected to even be 1-1 through these first two games, and it is certainly a long season, but I can't help but see an ugly trend developing against good team, and fear that Carmody's system is some kind of cousin to Milan's. While Camrody actually at least has an offensive system, his overall coaching philosophy is similar in that we are not going to be a program that dissect's film on opponents and finds weaknesses that we can exploit. We are not going to be a team that has a defensive gameplan that is geared towards taking away strengths from our opponents and making them beat us elsewhere (i.e. holding Dwayne Wade to 8 points from the field and making Travis f****** Diener have the game of his life to beat us). We are just going to roll the Princeton O out there, maybe play a little 1-3-1, maybe play a little 2-3, maybe play a little man, and hope we make more shots that the opponent. you speak with far too much confidence and authority on a subject about which you are clearly uninformed. i am as disappointed as anyone with our performances this year and carmody and the team need to do much better against big conference opponents. especially on the defensive end, where we have been pathetic against these teams. but your claim that this coaching staff does not prepare specifically for opponents and watch film, is quite frankly, utter BULL#@*&$~!. p.s. - nobody on this board liked rw more than i did. i would have taken him back in a new york minute after the kearney disaster. but rw got exactly as far as carmody has in the ncaa tournament in almost a decade at holy cross. close losses are still losses and rw was not able to get over the hump when it matters most. maybe carmody never will get over that hump either, but he did have a win in the ncaa tournament at princeton (similar academic requirements) following a season that finished in the top 10 in national polls.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 16, 2016 16:24:32 GMT -5
I echo the sentiments comparing these two games with the Oregon game last year. I don't think any expected to even be 1-1 through these first two games, and it is certainly a long season, but I can't help but see an ugly trend developing against good team, and fear that Carmody's system is some kind of cousin to Milan's. While Camrody actually at least has an offensive system, his overall coaching philosophy is similar in that we are not going to be a program that dissect's film on opponents and finds weaknesses that we can exploit. We are not going to be a team that has a defensive gameplan that is geared towards taking away strengths from our opponents and making them beat us elsewhere (i.e. holding Dwayne Wade to 8 points from the field and making Travis f****** Diener have the game of his life to beat us). We are just going to roll the Princeton O out there, maybe play a little 1-3-1, maybe play a little 2-3, maybe play a little man, and hope we make more shots that the opponent. you speak with far too much confidence and authority on a subject about which you are clearly uninformed. i am as disappointed as anyone with our performances this year and carmody and the team need to do much better against big conference opponents. especially on the defensive end, where we have been pathetic against these teams. but your claim that this coaching staff does not prepare specifically for opponents and watch film, is quite frankly, utter BULL#@*&$~!. p.s. - nobody on this board liked rw more than i did. i would have taken him back in a new york minute after the kearney disaster. but rw got exactly as far as carmody has in the ncaa tournament in almost a decade at holy cross. close losses are still losses and rw was not able to get over the hump when it matters most. maybe carmody never will get over that hump either, but he did have a win in the ncaa tournament at princeton (similar academic requirements) following a season that finished in the top 10 in national polls. Preview article for Oregon game last year: I didn't say that we don't prepare at all or watch any film, it just simply is not a point of emphasis. Comparing his second year at Princeton in 1997-98 where he was continuing 29 years of Pete Carril's Princeton O (following an NCAA win in Carril's last year) to Holy Cross in 2016-17 is like comparing apples to tractor trailer trucks.
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Post by Ray on Nov 16, 2016 16:42:40 GMT -5
you speak with far too much confidence and authority on a subject about which you are clearly uninformed. i am as disappointed as anyone with our performances this year and carmody and the team need to do much better against big conference opponents. especially on the defensive end, where we have been pathetic against these teams. but your claim that this coaching staff does not prepare specifically for opponents and watch film, is quite frankly, utter BULL#@*&$~!. p.s. - nobody on this board liked rw more than i did. i would have taken him back in a new york minute after the kearney disaster. but rw got exactly as far as carmody has in the ncaa tournament in almost a decade at holy cross. close losses are still losses and rw was not able to get over the hump when it matters most. maybe carmody never will get over that hump either, but he did have a win in the ncaa tournament at princeton (similar academic requirements) following a season that finished in the top 10 in national polls. Preview article for Oregon game last year: I didn't say that we don't prepare at all or watch any film, it just simply is not a point of emphasis. Comparing his second year at Princeton in 1997-98 where he was continuing 29 years of Pete Carril's Princeton O (following an NCAA win in Carril's last year) to Holy Cross in 2016-17 is like comparing apples to tractor trailer trucks. But on the flip side, the PO and the 1-3-1 do make us a tougher prep for the opponent. If they don't prep for US, they do so at their own peril... especially as CBC ramps up the recruiting to hopefully bring in a higher caliber of player that still fits in the PO.
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Post by HC1843 on Nov 16, 2016 16:53:07 GMT -5
Carmody and team review and breaks down tapes.
The point Carmody was making last year when quoted about Oregon is, these guys are tired and need to be awake for the game....they are exhausted and on fumes. As such, there is not much breaking down tape on Oregon is likely to do....sleep is more important now for them to have a shot.
Cheers.
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Post by ncaam on Nov 16, 2016 17:18:43 GMT -5
Every coach has a different emphasis on film watching....CMB and RW watched a lot of tape, CSK little and CBC somewhere in between. Preparation and planning takes a variety of forms. Anyone who thinks CBC didn't have a plan for this game is delusional. Unfortunately 'cuse shut down that plan early by nailing a number of 3's. HC got nothing from this game but a paycheck. Hopefully we cashed it immediately.
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Syracuse
Nov 16, 2016 20:09:02 GMT -5
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Post by HC1843 on Nov 16, 2016 20:09:02 GMT -5
Every coach has a different emphasis on film watching....CMB and RW watched a lot of tape, CSK little and CBC somewhere in between. Preparation and planning takes a variety of forms. Anyone who thinks CBC didn't have a plan for this game is delusional. Unfortunately 'cuse shut down that plan early by nailing a number of 3's. HC got nothing from this game but a paycheck. Hopefully we cashed it immediately. How does one measure/gather how much tape all these coaches watched...is it a matter of public record? Guarantee games are what they are....any indignation about them at our level seems overwrought. We get exposure and a check...if we can make them close great...we will get there again....and, who knows, hopefully steal an occasional game.
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Post by sarasota on Nov 16, 2016 21:11:20 GMT -5
Doing something you wouldn't otherwise do....only for money. Isn't there a name for that? Remember.....CBC said we took away nothing (except money).
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Post by Crosser on Nov 17, 2016 0:26:49 GMT -5
Doing something you wouldn't otherwise do....only for money. Isn't there a name for that? Remember.....CBC said we took away nothing (except money). A job?
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Post by lou on Nov 19, 2016 10:33:34 GMT -5
The last time two different Holy Cross teams played before crowds of 21000+ within 3 days? Yankee Stadium and Carrier Dome...
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