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Post by Tom on Aug 9, 2022 8:17:04 GMT -5
Some of the golfers who signed contracts with the LIV tour are suing the PGA for anti-trust violations. Some are also seeking injunctions so they can play in a PGA event in a couple of weeks
Golfers are independent contractors who work for the PGA. The PGA has rules for it's contractors about also working for the competition. Signing a contract to become an employee of the competitor violates those rules, so the PGA says they will not be using those contractors that are under contract to LIV.
Perhaps some lawyers on the board can explain to me how this is an anti trust violation. It seems to me that if these guys are signing contracts for more money than they make on the PGA, it's hard to claim the PGA is a monopoly. If a part time employee of Coke gets a full time job at Pepsi, is Coke being monopolistic by saying that guy can't work at Coke any more?
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 9, 2022 9:35:45 GMT -5
It's threads like this that make me even happier that I don't follow professional golf and don't give a hoot about the PGA or LIV. And, heaven forbid, I couldn't care less about Tiger Woods. Thanks, Tom, for reinforcing my feelings on the subject. A most useful post!  |
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Post by alum on Aug 9, 2022 11:47:43 GMT -5
I certainly don't practice antitrust law, but let me try to help and suggest some questions that need to be asked. First, I found this article: www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/an-employer-s-faq-guide-to-the-7610273/There is a pending request for an injunction allowing players who would otherwise be in the Fed Ex Cup playoffs to play. Typically, injunctive relief requires a showing that money damages are not available so it feels like injunctive relief ought not be necessary. It would seem to me that the Tour could argue that if they are held liable for antitrust violations, a trier of fact could award damages based upon what the players would have earned. Of course, if the LIV players argue they are losing sponsorships, etc. they will have to admit the LIV Tour isn't getting much publicity. I have a question about what damages the LIV players have as they are being paid (overpaid?) on their new tour. I wonder if the new tour has any restrictions on players playing in competing PGA Tour events. Finally, it seems to me that the biggest antitrust issue is going to be related to television contracts. Is the PGA Tour using its bargaining position to keep the LIV tour off the air? I am in a difficult position as a fan here. I really don't like a lot of the LIV tour guys, but I am also a fan of robust antitrust enforcement. Not sure what to do. |
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Post by bfoley82 on Aug 9, 2022 12:43:54 GMT -5
I certainly don't practice antitrust law, but let me try to help and suggest some questions that need to be asked. First, I found this article: www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/an-employer-s-faq-guide-to-the-7610273/There is a pending request for an injunction allowing players who would otherwise be in the Fed Ex Cup playoffs to play. Typically, injunctive relief requires a showing that money damages are not available so it feels like injunctive relief ought not be necessary. It would seem to me that the Tour could argue that if they are held liable for antitrust violations, a trier of fact could award damages based upon what the players would have earned. Of course, if the LIV players argue they are losing sponsorships, etc. they will have to admit the LIV Tour isn't getting much publicity. I have a question about what damages the LIV players have as they are being paid (overpaid?) on their new tour. I wonder if the new tour has any restrictions on players playing in competing PGA Tour events. Finally, it seems to me that the biggest antitrust issue is going to be related to television contracts. Is the PGA Tour using its bargaining position to keep the LIV tour off the air? I am in a difficult position as a fan here. I really don't like a lot of the LIV tour guys, but I am also a fan of robust antitrust enforcement. Not sure what to do. The PGA Tour is considered a non-profit for tax purposes....I wonder if the US government should take a peek at that! |
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Post by Tom on Aug 9, 2022 13:49:25 GMT -5
I read the article. I just don't see the monopolistic behavior. I imagine if there was proof of trying to keep the LIV off of TV that might mean something. A bigger factor would be when the LIV applies to have its events count toward world ranking. These LIV guys are getting so much money - more than they could have made even with sponsorships (for those that lost any), it seems hard to prove damages from monopolistic behavior. The only real hit these guys are taking is against their legacy - and that's a tough one to prove.
Sader 70 - One cool thing about golf is the players get paid for what they did that week. If LeBron James stinks the joint out all season or even for a week, he still takes home his guaranteed 41 million dollars. His income is based on his past accomplishments. In golf, they get paid for what they did this week. Tiger Woods played very poorly in the British Open. He got nothing that week. Golf is the ultimate in "what have you done for me lately"
Foley - I would not be surprised if the PGA Tour was really a non-profit. Like many charities, I'm sure the head honchos get paid a huge some - more than most people would think appropriate for a non-profit. Their operating expenses (with those big salaries) are probably higher than they should be. However, at the end of the day, I could easily see the PGA tour not actually having much money. My guess based on wild speculation and little fact is that the government wouldn't find much that would lead them to change the PGA Tour's status to a for profit institution
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 9, 2022 13:55:02 GMT -5
The LIV could probably get on the air but might get similar results as that NFL competitor league "He Hate Me" played for. I don't watch the PGA but I definitely wouldn't watch the LIV. For better or worse the LIV has been branded as a league that is sport washing the dismemberment of Jamal Khasoggi so it's repulsive to me.
Excellent work by human rights advocates. I don't know if that branding is effective on sports fans who aren't retired with time to follow the news like I have.
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Post by HC92 on Aug 9, 2022 14:12:56 GMT -5
The LIV can throw billions of dollars of Saudi money at golfers to take them from PGA events but the PGA can’t tell players that they can’t play PGA events? To paraphrase what President Bush said to Congress after 9/11: "Every golfer, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with the PGA, or you are with the LIV."
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Post by bfoley82 on Aug 9, 2022 14:22:02 GMT -5
Foley - I would not be surprised if the PGA Tour was really a non-profit. Like many charities, I'm sure the head honchos get paid a huge some - more than most people would think appropriate for a non-profit. Their operating expenses (with those big salaries) are probably higher than they should be. However, at the end of the day, I could easily see the PGA tour not actually having much money. My guess based on wild speculation and little fact is that the government wouldn't find much that would lead them to change the PGA Tour's status to a for profit institution The PGA Tour just bumped up the purses 53.8 million for 2023 season....Wonder where that money is coming from? The players should have questions about that. The PGA Tour only donated 3 percent of their 1.47 billion dollars in revenues in 2018. www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2021/12/22/lets_stop_pretending_that_the_pga_tour_is_a_charity_808930.html |
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Post by gks on Aug 9, 2022 15:14:03 GMT -5
If I'm the PGA I'm petrified. First time a professional sports entity is facing competition where money is not a factor at all.
Top LIV golfers can cash checks all year then just play in the three Majors which to them are the tournaments that really matter.
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 9, 2022 15:29:41 GMT -5
All true, Tom. Still doesn't appeal to me. Swing . . . . . walk . . . .walk . . . . walk . . . . walk . . . walk, swing . . . . walk . . . . . walk . . . . .and so on. Or some famous amateur golfers, ride your golf cart.
I've played. Not good because I didn't play 3 times a week like some of my Ohio co-workers (trivia: more golf courses in Ohio than any other state) but notice as I played more frequently, I got better. That said, I don't like to watch it. More fun to play than watch. That's me. If you like it, more power to you.
Also bowled (real bowling, not candlepin) and was on a team in high school. Like golf, play more frequently, got pretty good actually with 200+ games semi-frequently. Who'd a guessed that when you practice or play something frequently, you get better at it? Watch bowling? I avoid it like Monkeypox. Pretty fun to play, dreadful to watch.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Aug 9, 2022 16:50:27 GMT -5
A 200+ round of golf is actually not very good😛
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Post by Tom on Aug 9, 2022 20:36:13 GMT -5
If I'm the PGA I'm petrified. First time a professional sports entity is facing competition where money is not a factor at all. Top LIV golfers can cash checks all year then just play in the three Majors which to them are the tournaments that really matter. Still gotta qualify Mickelson can play in the Masters for life. Unless someone starts accrediting LIV events, Mickelson isn't doing anything to qualify for the U.S. Open. His resume has always gotten him a pass, but with nothing new on his resume, he'll have to win a qualifying tournament like the Fran Quinns of the world |
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Post by Tom on Aug 9, 2022 20:38:23 GMT -5
Also bowled (real bowling, not candlepin) and was on a team in high school. Like golf, play more frequently, got pretty good actually with 200+ games semi-frequently. Who'd a guessed that when you practice or play something frequently, you get better at it? Watch bowling? I avoid it like Monkeypox. Pretty fun to play, dreadful to watch. I'm from New England. Candlepin is real bowling |
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Post by alum on Aug 10, 2022 5:21:24 GMT -5
The judge denied the LIV players’ request for a temporary restraining order to play in the Fed Ex playoffs finding that they could not prove irreparable harm given the huge money they have been paid. More interestingly, it looks like the big payouts are really advances against future earnings. The contracts were not made public but a lawyer made reference to this fact.
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Post by alum on Aug 10, 2022 5:21:46 GMT -5
Also bowled (real bowling, not candlepin) and was on a team in high school. Like golf, play more frequently, got pretty good actually with 200+ games semi-frequently. Who'd a guessed that when you practice or play something frequently, you get better at it? Watch bowling? I avoid it like Monkeypox. Pretty fun to play, dreadful to watch. I'm from New England. Candlepin is real bowling We prefer duckpin in CT. |
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Post by Tom on Aug 10, 2022 8:49:55 GMT -5
The judge denied the LIV players’ request for a temporary restraining order to play in the Fed Ex playoffs finding that they could not prove irreparable harm given the huge money they have been paid. More interestingly, it looks like the big payouts are really advances against future earnings. The contracts were not made public but a lawyer made reference to this fact. The advance angle is interesting. These tournaments have small fields. As they grab more big names, some of the lesser stars might get shut out of tournaments that are full. But if you give me $10 million against future earnings, it's not my problem that you won't let me play. Unless there's some clause I have to give it back if I don't earn it fast enough |
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Post by clmetsfan on Aug 10, 2022 14:35:49 GMT -5
The judge denied the LIV players’ request for a temporary restraining order to play in the Fed Ex playoffs finding that they could not prove irreparable harm given the huge money they have been paid. More interestingly, it looks like the big payouts are really advances against future earnings. The contracts were not made public but a lawyer made reference to this fact. That's news to me. Who'd have thought that signing contracts to be paid in Saudi blood oil money would have a downside?? |
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Post by bfoley82 on Aug 10, 2022 23:43:54 GMT -5
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Post by alum on Jun 6, 2023 9:49:58 GMT -5
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jun 6, 2023 11:41:16 GMT -5
Morality goes out the door when beaucoup dollars are involved, huh Jay?
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jun 6, 2023 12:13:00 GMT -5
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Post by alum on Jun 6, 2023 12:31:02 GMT -5
So, are the Saudis just going to eat those massive upfront payments they made to get people to join their tour? And, if the PGA Tour was engaged in anti compeitive behavior as LIV alleged, how would an entity combining the PGA, LIV, and DP World (European) tours not be an even bigger example of this?
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jun 6, 2023 12:59:17 GMT -5
So, are the Saudis just going to eat those massive upfront payments they made to get people to join their tour? And, if the PGA Tour was engaged in anti compeitive behavior as LIV alleged, how would an entity combining the PGA, LIV, and DP World (European) tours not be an even bigger example of this? That's what I was thinking about the anti-trust lawsuit. If everyone is in the trust, who can fight it |
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Post by alum on Jun 6, 2023 14:12:35 GMT -5
I want somebody to ask the sponsors of the Tour events and all of the volunteers whether they want to stay involved if the Saudis own the tour. I would love to see the Travelers walk away. The Travelers executive who manages its relationship with the Tour is Andy Bessette who made the 1980 Olympic team and was unable to compete. I imagine he would have a perspective.
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Post by hcpride on Jun 6, 2023 14:29:49 GMT -5
Soooooo, all those sanctimonious PGA fellas loudly criticizing LIV fellas for taking Saudi cash are now happily taking Saudi cash. I've seen phoney-balonies and virtue-signalers ad nauseum of late but this one is really something.
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