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Post by rgs318 on Oct 13, 2023 7:32:25 GMT -5
hcpride, Your last point is a strong one. That is not because I believe all such opinions, but because they serve as one side for a dialogue and can help to offset extreme views on the other side. I have seen some tragic examples of people being denied the right to express their research (or views about it) just because someone on the other side disagrees. Such disagreement. is reacted to if their opinion were fact. I hate to admit it but when Barry Goldwater's family members came to the HC campus back when I was there, I felt exactly that way - feeling some sort of moral/intellectual superiority because my liberal views were commonly held at that time. I now see my error, cutting off all dialogue, and have tried to do better in that regard - opening lines of communication. Mea culpa.
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Post by dadominate on Oct 13, 2023 8:14:36 GMT -5
hcpride, Your last point is a strong one. That is not because I believe all such opinions, but because they serve as one side for a dialogue and can help to offset extreme views on the other side. I have seen some tragic examples of people being denied the right to express their research (or views about it) just because someone on the other side disagrees. Suchj disagreement. is reacted if their opinion were fact. I hate to admit it but when Barry Goldwater's family members came to the HC campus back when I was there, I felt exactly that way - feeling some sort of moral/intellectual superiority because my liberal views were commonly held at that time. I now see my error, cutting off all dialogue, and have tried tlo do better in that regard - opening lines of communication. Mea culpa.right on across the board, rgs! mea culpa for my naive views for almost the same exact reasons (and in the same direction) several decades later. open dialog is the key. the marketplace of ideas will settle right and wrong, not suppression of dialog. per the bolded material above, i know you also spent time in academia, but the situation is even worse when research harms the financial gain of influential entities. such research WILL be suppressed and fought tooth and nail at every level, until it becomes "obvious" (e.g. tobacco smoking and cancer). rest assured 20+ years from now we will look back on current affairs (especially the censorship during the past three years) with a similar lens. the energy, telecommunications, chemical - and most gravely - pharmaceutical industries will not be viewed favorably.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Oct 13, 2023 8:38:50 GMT -5
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 13, 2023 8:55:22 GMT -5
I read a quote from GK Chesterton this week (soap written on a high school student's car actually) about why men fight. Is it haste. or love? He said: "Men fight NOT because they hate those in front of them. They fight because they love those behind them."
OK, discuss.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 13, 2023 16:57:52 GMT -5
Yes, the public is starting to learn that the 'fringe' pro palestine/anti-Israel folks on some of our elite campuses are actually not fringe or even extreme relative to the academic left. It is the old Marxist view of oppressor v oppressed and Israel is an irredeemable oppressor. Colonizers! And there is no sympathy for oppressors/colonizers. No matter the slaughter. Only cheers for the oppressed. And the intersectional allies are happy to join in. That also explains the rather squishy wordsmithing and re-wordsmithing (see Cornell) and re-re-wordsmithing (see Stanford). Columbia had quite a large demonstration yesterday and there is a huge crowd of the pro-Palestine/anti-Israel crew marching in NYC as we speak. With the intersectionals and left wing academics in the fore. HC thankfully doesn't have that issue on campus and PVR was able to do the right thing.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Oct 13, 2023 17:28:22 GMT -5
I read a quote from GK Chesterton this week (soap written on a high school student's car actually) about why men fight. Is it haste. or love? He said: "Men fight NOT because they hate those in front of them. They fight because they love those behind them." OK, discuss. Chesterton never met Hamas.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 13, 2023 19:00:58 GMT -5
Not speaking for Chesterton, but even in this case I believe he would point out that the members of the IDF are fighting for those "behind" them...women, babies, children, the elderly the families of those who were killed/slaughtered by Hamas. That is why they are now in the field.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 14, 2023 12:01:13 GMT -5
I know I'll regret this but . . . .
I am 100% against Hamas and what they did and continuously try to do.
I am against Israel setting up internationally illegal, what I'll call "homesteads".
I am against both sides who will not support a two-state solution, which, IMHO, is the only conceivable way that this decades long conflict will ever peacefully resolve.
It is appalling what Hamas did, killing innocents, raping and taking hostages. They are effectively holding their own people hostage as well.
I am also appalled at what, on the face of it, appears to be Israeli indiscriminate bombing (just look at all the kids and elderly in Gaza hospitals and dead bodies) and giving a "warning" for innocents to evacuate under almost impossible conditions and Hamas for telling those in northern Gaza to stay as they seem to want more of their own people to be killed.
A lot of blame to go around but, yes, the immediate cause was Hamas and while almost all of this is "on them," it's not 100% as Israel needs to do a better job at least trying to find peace . . . . not with Hamas but the Palestinian people, the vast majority who just want to live in peace and security. Just like the Israeli people.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Oct 14, 2023 15:36:57 GMT -5
I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but I would add:
1. There was a two state solution in 1948, but only Israel accepted.
2. Who does one negotiate a solution with nowadays? Fatah is in the West Bank, Hamas runs Gaza, and the Palestinian Authority is feckless and corrupt.
3. Unfortunately, with Hamas (as with Putin) the barbarism isn't a consequence but the point. The savagery was such that Israel was left with no choice but to invade Gaza. What does Hamas want? I think to derail any peace agreements between Israel and Arab states, and to ignite a broader war that decimates Israel.
4. I don't know that Israel is being indiscriminate with its bombing. I think the opposite, but since Gaza is one of the most densely populated places in the world it's inevitable (and tragic) that innocents will suffer. I don't think this is random bombing a la Putin.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 14, 2023 15:45:41 GMT -5
Whether accurate or not, some of the former U.S. general pundits say Hamas is underground with the hostages likely there with them. As such, arial bombíng is likely to hit more innocents than Hamas. Destroying infrastructure is about all it will accomplish. Not that that isn’t important but it is being done at the expense of innocents.
I have no clue how this can be accomplished without “collateral damage” - what a euphemism - implies bloodless.
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Post by mm67 on Oct 14, 2023 15:55:07 GMT -5
This discussion is extremely interesting and stimulating. If only people could bring to the front the same well-informed intelligence and listening skillson display on this board. The posters are a true role model for others, myself included.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 14, 2023 18:31:58 GMT -5
Whether accurate or not, some of the former U.S. general pundits say Hamas is underground with the hostages likely there with them. As such, arial bombíng is likely to hit more innocents than Hamas. Destroying infrastructure is about all it will accomplish. Not that that isn’t important but it is being done at the expense of innocents. I have no clue how this can be accomplished without “collateral damage” - what a euphemism - implies bloodless. The IDF goal is destruction of Hamas. Full stop. Undoubtedly, any hostages still alive are deep underground if they are still in Gaza. (One imagines Hamas developed some VERY detailed plans for these unfortunates and surely anticipated a massive invasion/aerial bombardment by Israel.) Of course that doesn't mean Hamas won't produce some Israeli bodies and claim Israel killed them in an IDF invasion/aerial attack. Not that it matters to Hamas (it doesn't) but Israel actually holds 2,000,000 Palestinians hostage (in the sense it can kill them with very little effort at any time and for any reason). With any luck, we (the US government including military) are working feverishly to bring the killers of the 27 slaughtered US citizens to justice. There are also 14 US citizens hostage. We would ordinarily be VERY engaged in that sort of thing so I'm assuming we are now (with little fanfare).
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 14, 2023 21:54:02 GMT -5
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 15, 2023 15:47:17 GMT -5
And since we've already strayed far from the original topic, let me suggest that while what is happening in the Middle East is horrendous, we should not forget the people of Ukraine. The difference, of course, is that in Ukraine, it is a state-on-state war, while in Israel/Gaza, it is terrorists vs. state. For the dead, wounded, raped, hostages, it is perhaps a distinction without a difference. Both Israel and Ukraine are fighting for their very existence. As always, it's the innocents who pay the price. Let's pray for them all. www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/gaza-evacuations-catholic-parish/675639/?utm_source=apple_news
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Post by mm67 on Oct 15, 2023 18:16:24 GMT -5
Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. Their platform of destroying Israel & establishing a Muslim Caliphate was clearly stated in the Hamas Covenant. Israel in effect is dealing with a terrorist state sworn to kill Jews and destroy Israel. . Israel is at war. Hamas must be destroyed.
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Post by td128 on Oct 15, 2023 20:26:08 GMT -5
I wonder when Hamas was established, what prompted their being founded and who helped in making that happen?
Probably worthy of serious review in light of current developments.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Oct 15, 2023 22:13:29 GMT -5
Trying to get back on topic regarding this thread, and why the history of Native American people must be truly explored, CBS Sunday Morning profiled a movie that will be released this week called “Killers of the Flower Moon”. The movie is based on a book by David Gann, staring Leo DiCaprio, Robert DeNiro and Lily Gladstone. www.cbsnews.com/news/killers-of-the-flower-moon-martin-scorsese-leonardo-dicaprio-lily-gladstone/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killers_of_the_Flower_Moon#:~:text=Killers%20of%20the%20Flower%20Moon%3A%20The%20Osage%20Murders%20and%20the,ten%20nonfiction%20books%20of%202017. “The book investigates a series of murders of wealthy Osage people that took place in Osage County, Oklahoma, in the early 1920s—after big oil deposits were discovered beneath their land.[10][11] After the Osage are awarded headrights in court to the profits made from oil deposits found on their land, the Osage people prepare to receive the wealth to which they are legally entitled from sales of their oil deposits. The Osage are viewed as the "middle man" and a complex plot is hatched to eliminate the Osage inheritors on a one-by-one basis by any means possible. Officially, the count of the wealthy Osage victims reaches at least twenty, but Grann suspects that hundreds more may have been killed because of their ties to oil.[12] The book details the newly formed FBI's investigation of the murders, as well as the eventual trial and conviction of cattleman William Hale as the mastermind behind the plot.” Over 50 years ago, I had a friend who attended Clark University and was an enrolled member of the Osage Nation. Unfortunately we lost touch. Wish I could have a conversation now regarding the book and the movie.
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