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Post by bfoley82 on Feb 16, 2023 11:37:14 GMT -5
One thing I have seen this year in the mid-major/lower D-1 levels is just terrible basketball being played in the Women's game. Tons of missed layups, poor shooting etc...
Is the play getting worse or is it just me?
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Post by HC13 on Feb 16, 2023 12:23:19 GMT -5
I agree the play is getting very bad, many players seem to have very poor fundamentals. Bad decision making abounds. Don't know if it's the AAU plague of individual play vs team or what. High school play is even worse off.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Feb 16, 2023 12:34:12 GMT -5
Not just WBB, the play in MBB also has had a significant downgrade in basic fundamentals as well. Unless you have a strong interest in a particular team, most games are unappealing to watch until March.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 16, 2023 12:35:08 GMT -5
This indicates that the portal will offer no big help. If you teach the kids you have well over four years, that's the opportunity for an advantage at a Holy Cross level.
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Post by bison137 on Feb 16, 2023 13:54:21 GMT -5
One thing I have seen this year in the mid-major/lower D-1 levels is just terrible basketball being played in the Women's game. Tons of missed layups, poor shooting etc... Is the play getting worse or is it just me? It's just you. Some teams are up, some are down - but collectively it has not changed. |
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Post by HC13 on Feb 16, 2023 13:58:19 GMT -5
One thing I have seen this year in the mid-major/lower D-1 levels is just terrible basketball being played in the Women's game. Tons of missed layups, poor shooting etc... Is the play getting worse or is it just me? It's just you. Some teams are up, some are down - but collectively it has not changed. No, it's not. Play is mediocre across many leagues right now. |
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Post by purplehaze on Feb 16, 2023 15:10:59 GMT -5
The undisputed fact with women's bball is that the gap from the top teams to the mid-low major level is very wide and maybe wider than ever. The 1st and 2nd round ncaa games are most often 'name the score' affairs.
If the point of this topic is that the gap in getting wider, I think that might be true - I would have hoped that the mid-low majors would have narrowed the gap but it seems not to be so.
As for HC I think we are an unfortunate example of our quality of play not improving over the years. I was mistaken when I thought we would regain annual prominence at the mid-major level with our facilities and tradition.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 16, 2023 15:25:25 GMT -5
I agree the play is getting very bad, many players seem to have very poor fundamentals. Bad decision making abounds. Don't know if it's the AAU plague of individual play vs team or what. High school play is even worse off. May, in part, be a consequence of COVID at the high school level, with cancelled seasons, reduced schedules, etc. |
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 16, 2023 15:28:00 GMT -5
I agree the play is getting very bad, many players seem to have very poor fundamentals. Bad decision making abounds. Don't know if it's the AAU plague of individual play vs team or what. High school play is even worse off. May, in part, be a consequence of COVID at the high school level, with cancelled seasons, reduced schedules, etc. Finally a logical explanation. That makes sense. |
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 16, 2023 15:33:07 GMT -5
The undisputed fact with women's bball is that the gap from the top teams to the mid-low major level is very wide and maybe wider than ever. The 1st and 2nd round ncaa games are most often 'name the score' affairs. If the point of this topic is that the gap in getting wider, I think that might be true - I would have hoped that the mid-low majors would have narrowed the gap but it seems not to be so. As for HC I think we are an unfortunate example of our quality of play not improving over the years. I was mistaken when I thought we would regain annual prominence at the mid-major level with our facilities and tradition. HC had a shot early on of becoming a prominent program but I think that would have taken a decided strategy of being flexible with admissions and TPTB decided to treat WBB the same way as other scholarship sports and perhaps that was the responsible track. |
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Post by purplehaze on Feb 16, 2023 19:15:35 GMT -5
I disagree - HC would not have to compromise their standards - women are generally better students than men, athletics is no exception
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Post by oldschoolhoops on Feb 16, 2023 19:26:53 GMT -5
Bfoley's question raises a good point. And I think most of us can agree that the game play is in decline, and has been in decline for a few years (for men and women). I don't know how many posters here are former or current teachers or coaches, but I would enjoy hearing views on how the fundamentals of teaching/coaching have changed in the last decade or so. In the interim, I share my view:
1. AAU has changed basketball. Spring and summer is full of games and less practices. That's what kids are used to. They don't want to attend 2 hour practices. They want to play. So they play. And this has impacted learning and skill development. Playing has its place but it's not the best place to learn all the aspects of a sport.
2. More emphasis from parents on "getting their child seen" rather than putting them in spots where they can learn the game. Not too many point guard camps and big man (or woman) development camps anymore. Parents don't send kids to them much anymore. Lots of team camps though...more games, games, games (and please visit the canteen!).
3. More and more coaches at the high school level are leaving coaching. And those skills and knowledge are leaving with them. They don't want to deal with the parents (and sometimes the kids)
4. More and more coaches at the college level are leaving coaching. All the skills and years of experience are leaving with them too.
5. Colleges are hiring less experienced coaches. Now, 2 or 3 years as an assistant somewhere gets you an interview for a job you would never have had a chance to get 15 years ago.
6. Colleges aren't hiring coaches with the best skill set or experience; it's not the top priority in hiring in higher ed.
7. Students in the classroom or on the court are much more challenging to teach. Parent intervention combined with a focus on making a young person having a 24/7 positive experience makes it very difficult to be a teacher that needs to teach, correct, and maintain accountability.
8. Players in general don't want to put the work in for skill development as much as they may have in the past. And no one is making them accountable for it because they can't. The players can go right to the administration if they have an issue and coaches want to avoid that. We've seen that in this league.
9. Admins don't care much about the quality of play/performance of a team for women's hoops.
10. Players/students have the power in the dynamic between teacher/coach-student and it is out of balance. As a result, standards get lowered.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 16, 2023 20:24:11 GMT -5
I disagree - HC would not have to compromise their standards - women are generally better students than men, athletics is no exception Then why didn't HC WBB become a national power? |
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Post by bfoley82 on Feb 16, 2023 21:03:32 GMT -5
Bfoley's question raises a good point. And I think most of us can agree that the game play is in decline, and has been in decline for a few years (for men and women). I don't know how many posters here are former or current teachers or coaches, but I would enjoy hearing views on how the fundamentals of teaching/coaching have changed in the last decade or so. In the interim, I share my view: 1. AAU has changed basketball. Spring and summer is full of games and less practices. That's what kids are used to. They don't want to attend 2 hour practices. They want to play. So they play. And this has impacted learning and skill development. Playing has its place but it's not the best place to learn all the aspects of a sport. 2. More emphasis from parents on "getting their child seen" rather than putting them in spots where they can learn the game. Not too many point guard camps and big man (or woman) development camps anymore. Parents don't send kids to them much anymore. Lots of team camps though...more games, games, games (and please visit the canteen!). 3. More and more coaches at the high school level are leaving coaching. And those skills and knowledge are leaving with them. They don't want to deal with the parents (and sometimes the kids) 4. More and more coaches at the college level are leaving coaching. All the skills and years of experience are leaving with them too. 5. Colleges are hiring less experienced coaches. Now, 2 or 3 years as an assistant somewhere gets you an interview for a job you would never have had a chance to get 15 years ago. 6. Colleges aren't hiring coaches with the best skill set or experience; it's not the top priority in hiring in higher ed. 7. Students in the classroom or on the court are much more challenging to teach. Parent intervention combined with a focus on making a young person having a 24/7 positive experience makes it very difficult to be a teacher that needs to teach, correct, and maintain accountability. 8. Players in general don't want to put the work in for skill development as much as they may have in the past. And no one is making them accountable for it because they can't. The players can go right to the administration if they have an issue and coaches want to avoid that. We've seen that in this league. 9. Admins don't care much about the quality of play/performance of a team for women's hoops. 10. Players/students have the power in the dynamic between teacher/coach-student and it is out of balance. As a result, standards get lowered. And nowhere did I bring up Holy Cross....I had Vermont (top 2 team in America East this year) play at UMass-Lowell (backend of America East) last weekend. There was a ton of missed layups including off the side of the backboard and poor play. Final score was 58-39. They followed up that game beating UNH 43-36. That is just horrible basketball to watch. |
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Post by purplehaze on Feb 16, 2023 22:19:56 GMT -5
LS, the league we’re in will always hold us back.
I’m not talking about national prominence but only talking about being a mid major power - in Gibbons’ heyday our teams were at that level
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 17, 2023 0:46:34 GMT -5
LS, the league we’re in will always hold us back. I’m not talking about national prominence but only talking about being a mid major power - in Gibbons’ heyday our teams were at that level Agree that HC was among the top mid majors in the BG heyday, which is somewhat similar to FB being near the top of FCS under Carter/Duffner and Chesney, and a very positive place for an HC program to be. Where I was thinking admissions was a major roadblock from going higher, I understand you to be saying that we could find top skilled WBB players who are academically qualified, but they don't want to play in a low ranked conference like the PL. Makes sense. |
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Post by HC92 on Feb 17, 2023 8:41:06 GMT -5
Good post by oldschool. I think he’s spot on. Part of the challenge is also that the talent gets diluted when all of the girls (and boys) sports are year-round and all the best athletes are playing club/premier/AAU in their sport of choice. In many cases, hoops is the second or third choice behind soccer and lax. I have a really good 6th grade girls team. Last year, two of them played outside of the winter season. This year, a third is joining those two for the Spring AAU season. There’s also a lot of emphasis on winning at young ages in travel and AAU so that you see a lot of full court press from athletic teams and packed in 2-3 zone from the less athletic teams. That results in many of the games being a crapshow with 40 turnovers and/or a lot of terrible shots being taken. Two of the teams with the best records in our league are absolutely awful at basketball but one full court presses and one packs it in. They win a lot of games that way even though they are completely devoid of skill.
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Post by timholycross on Feb 17, 2023 15:17:01 GMT -5
I'm not sure what problems affect the college level.
At the high school level, most of what's been posted is pretty spot on. The defense I see some teams play is hideous.
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Post by HC92 on Feb 17, 2023 15:43:03 GMT -5
I'm not sure what problems affect the college level. At the high school level, most of what's been posted is pretty spot on. The defense I see some teams play is hideous. High school feeds college. If kids aren’t getting better in travel, high school and AAU, the quality of play in college isn’t going to be very good. |
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Post by DiMarz on Feb 17, 2023 16:22:04 GMT -5
Oneof the problems I see is the best athlete can get away on athleticism through high school, and the very athletic can get tot the pro level being more athletic...I watch all kinds of games, from HS to pro..and I see players who don't know basic fundamentals, and yet can succeed.. Jehevy Floyd was not a good m2m defender, he would get beat off the dribble, but then recover and block a shot from behind....His athletic ability took over....Jason Tatum goes by defenders and then scores right handed on the left side of the hoop...faster, quicker and stronger..My town HS team is ranked #2 in the State in their division, they have no great athletic players, but they have many that work their buttts off..they are undefeated. Their top scorer is the grandson of a college hockey teammate of mine..He gets up at 4, goes to his gym to lift. Then to the HS to shoot by 6 am, by himself for an hour.If he was 4 or 5 inches taller he would be a D-1 recruit, now a D-3. He had 7 3's in the first period of a blowout win Wednesday.. We don't see players like him very often anymore..Batch is one of them...
Girls hoops has taken a nose dive in the last years. HS to college...Kids just don't want to put in the time, and they want to be the star, not just on the team
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Post by timholycross on Feb 17, 2023 18:21:06 GMT -5
Girls hoops has taken a nose dive in the last years. HS to college...Kids just don't want to put in the time, and they want to be the star, not just on the team As you're a Central Mass guy, there's one question I have for you. Why with a merged and larger school is the descendent of Holy Name/St. Peter's not very good in basketball....both genders had great teams year after year; now they are both doormats. |
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Post by purplehaze on Feb 17, 2023 20:30:24 GMT -5
Our program should strive to do what Quinnipiac has done in the MAAC - although a little down this season they play a challenging ooc schedule and have established themselves as a strong mid major
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Post by HC92 on Feb 18, 2023 0:15:21 GMT -5
Our program should strive to do what Quinnipiac has done in the MAAC - although a little down this season they play a challenging ooc schedule and have established themselves as a strong mid major Massey has us in the same ballpark as Q the last few years. This year, they’re 156 and we’re 178. Last year, they were 162 and we were 191. Year before that, we were 215 and they were 212. |
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Post by purplehaze on Feb 18, 2023 9:39:41 GMT -5
Then let’s play their ooc schedule (much more interesting) as those losses don’t effect the ranking - take a look and let me know what you think
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Post by HC92 on Feb 18, 2023 10:30:13 GMT -5
Then let’s play their ooc schedule (much more interesting) as those losses don’t effect the ranking - take a look and let me know what you think I like playing a harder schedule. The kids like to have those games on the schedule and we get a little money out of it which is great. But I don’t want to overstate the benefits. This year Q played nationally ranked NC State and Indiana and lost to both by 37 points. They also played a decent mid-major in Kent State and lost by 3. I think we should play 1-2 guarantee games each year as a recruiting tool and source of income (no idea how much such game pay) but it’s not like playing those games has caused Q to move dramatically ahead of us in the northeast low-mid major power rankings. |
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