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Post by mm67 on Aug 28, 2023 20:18:48 GMT -5
The Pope added the US Church has replaced faith with ideology. He sounds like some of the posters on this board. Was he in Worcester? Honestly, I don't usually pay much attention to the internecine back biting within the Church. But, when the Pope speaks...
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Post by Crucis#1 on Aug 28, 2023 20:55:40 GMT -5
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 28, 2023 20:57:21 GMT -5
The Pope added the US Church has replaced faith with ideology. He sounds like some of the posters on this board. Was he in Worcester? Honestly, I don't usually pay much attention to the internecine back biting within the Church. But, when the Pope speaks... Well, he's not exactly speaking ex cathedra, but social media has amplified the pushback in the US dioceses of his shutdown of the Tridentine Mass. Pope Francis is the last of the Popes of the Vatican II era, one who knew Rev. Arrupe and witnessed Arrupe's evolution of the Jesuits from what was once called "the Pope's private army" to a focus on the poor and marginalized. In the US that coincided with a left turn politically among its membership. By contrast, those Jesuits of the 1960s and 1970s are now in their 80s and above, and the younger clerics are now more doctrinally traditional then it was coming out of Vatican II. The Pope's messaging is often more "Jesuit" than "traditional" and that is a point of grumbling in some quarters.
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Post by hchoops on Aug 28, 2023 20:58:26 GMT -5
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Post by mm67 on Aug 28, 2023 21:39:25 GMT -5
" a very strong reactionary attitude" in the US catholic Church. No doubt he was referring to religiously conservative groups such as those who favor the Tridentine Mass and their criticisms of his pontificate. I suspect these differences of opinion have very little bearing on the faith of average Catholics many of whom have varying interpretations of their Catholic faith, eg. death penalty, birth control, nuclear war, immigration, LGBQT inclusiveness and a myriad of other practices. Years ago on campus an elderly Jesuit explained to me the evolution of understanding of the truths of Catholicism. Round & round.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Aug 29, 2023 7:15:42 GMT -5
He has stuffed the ballot box when it comes to the next conclave.
'Francis has now named nine batches of new cardinals in his 10-year papacy. Even before this latest group, he had already appointed the large majority of those eligible to elect the next pontiff — those aged under 80. With the latest appointments, the number of cardinals who meet that condition stands at 137.' [My guess, 90+ of the 137 were appointed by Francis.]
'That means, increasingly, the men who will vote for whoever succeeds Francis, in the event of his resignation or death, are churchmen supportive of his values, priorities and perspectives and who share his vision for the future of the Catholic Church.'
Only six cardinals head American archdioceses. Of the six, there are at least three who are in the Francis camp, the cardinals for Boston, Chicago, and Washington DC.
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Post by hchoops on Aug 29, 2023 8:00:48 GMT -5
He has stuffed the ballot box when it comes to the next conclave. 'Francis has now named nine batches of new cardinals in his 10-year papacy. Even before this latest group, he had already appointed the large majority of those eligible to elect the next pontiff — those aged under 80. With the latest appointments, the number of cardinals who meet that condition stands at 137.' [My guess, 90+ of the 137 were appointed by Francis.] 'That means, increasingly, the men who will vote for whoever succeeds Francis, in the event of his resignation or death, are churchmen supportive of his values, priorities and perspectives and who share his vision for the future of the Catholic Church.' Only six cardinals head American archdioceses. Of the six, there are at least three who are in the Francis camp, the cardinals for Boston, Chicago, and Washington DC. Phreek,, Not usual for you to leave out the important fact that Francis is far from the only Pope to appoint (in your words, “stuffed the ballot box”) like minded bishops to red hats. You could use your quote(uncited ) in the second paragraph for many/ most popes. I do not have the statistics, but JPII’s 26 year tenure allowed him to appoint many conservative bishops to the College of Cardinals.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Aug 29, 2023 8:20:12 GMT -5
I can't say I'm an expert in these matters but I have read that the politics played in the Vatican are of the hardball variety. I've also read (maybe Russ Douthat in NYT?) that some fear there is a danger of a schism in the Church between (simply stated) Team Francis and Team Benedict.
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Post by hchoops on Aug 29, 2023 8:33:58 GMT -5
Douthat loves to stir things up. As an arch Conservative, Catholic as well as politics ( anti Trump) he has consistently blamed Pope Francis for many of the theological issues he disagrees with .His schism nonsense is just that.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 29, 2023 9:47:06 GMT -5
He has stuffed the ballot box when it comes to the next conclave. 'Francis has now named nine batches of new cardinals in his 10-year papacy. Even before this latest group, he had already appointed the large majority of those eligible to elect the next pontiff — those aged under 80. With the latest appointments, the number of cardinals who meet that condition stands at 137.' [My guess, 90+ of the 137 were appointed by Francis.] 'That means, increasingly, the men who will vote for whoever succeeds Francis, in the event of his resignation or death, are churchmen supportive of his values, priorities and perspectives and who share his vision for the future of the Catholic Church.' Except that the College of Cardinals does not work like a political party and priorities change with each conclave: Pius XII to John XXIII, for example, or Paul VI to (a month later) JP II. Or, for that matter, from Benedict XVI to Francis.
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Post by Tom on Aug 29, 2023 12:01:54 GMT -5
I wonder if this kind of statement bodes will for the Nativity School in Worcester and their appeal of the decision saying it was no longer a Catholic school
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 29, 2023 12:44:08 GMT -5
Let’s just say I am not shocked that neither McManus nor Tobin, especially the latter was not named a cardinal before he retired. His editorials/columns were thinly veiled attacks on Francis’ positions.
I learned a long time ago that to advance, it helps greatly if you can “manage your manager,” a trait that I never inherited from my father. I had a bad habit of telling my bosses, “if you don’t like or want my opinions, stop asking for them.” 😂
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Post by alum on Aug 29, 2023 12:46:35 GMT -5
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Post by Tom on Aug 29, 2023 13:48:31 GMT -5
Sort of The bishop never asked St Johns or Notre Dame to adopt any policy. New policies on the topic have been instituted in all of the Worcester diocesan schools. St Johns and Notre Dame are not diocesan schools. It was pretty clear in the announcement that these policies were only being instituted at the diocesan schools and were not meant to go beyond that. St Johns and Notre Dame officials did come forward and say they can take care of these issues on their own and will not independently adopt these policies. However, I think it is important to remember that neither St Johns nor Notre Dame is going against the bishop or refusing to comply with a request/edict from the chancery
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Post by alum on Aug 29, 2023 14:31:12 GMT -5
Sort of The bishop never asked St Johns or Notre Dame to adopt any policy. New policies on the topic have been instituted in all of the Worcester diocesan schools. St Johns and Notre Dame are not diocesan schools. It was pretty clear in the announcement that these policies were only being instituted at the diocesan schools and were not meant to go beyond that. St Johns and Notre Dame officials did come forward and say they can take care of these issues on their own and will not independently adopt these policies. However, I think it is important to remember that neither St Johns nor Notre Dame is going against the bishop or refusing to comply with a request/edict from the chancery I am not sure that I agree with you that the letter was only intended to apply to diocesan schools. It says "Catholic schools." He picked on the Nativity school which is in the same situation as these two high schools. Of course, the bishop is a bully and he probably figured the Nativity School has a lot fewer alums than these two mainstays of Worcester Catholicism. I guess we will wait and see.
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Post by mm67 on Aug 29, 2023 16:00:37 GMT -5
Reduced to simplicity. Why can't we all get along? Overly pompous edicts inevitably fail.The bishop's intolerance is derived from his narrow culture and is not faith-based. He is a blind man. He can't help himself. Pray for him or is it, it.
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Post by dadominate on Aug 30, 2023 7:02:18 GMT -5
Reduced to simplicity. Why can't we all get along? Overly pompous edicts inevitably fail.The bishop's intolerance is derived from his narrow culture and is not faith-based. He is a blind man. He can't help himself. Pray for him or is it, it. would you consider this to be a tolerant perspective of someone with a different opinion? i certainly wouldn't. ironically, it appears that some of the least tolerant perspectives today are those who beat their chests about the intolerance of others and intolerantly launch ad hominems without knowing the individual. we need to respect and understand differing opinions, even/especially if we disagree with them. i say this respectfully, of course, as i appreciate your perspectives. however, the irony in this thread is difficult to escape as the intolerance of the diversity of ideas (not just superficial characteristics) is dividing not only our faith community but our world more generally. i agree with the wish that we could all get along, but it starts with genuine tolerance... not just tolerance of those with whom we agree. because one side will always feel that the other side is intolerant, and vice versa.
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Post by alum on Aug 30, 2023 7:28:19 GMT -5
Reduced to simplicity. Why can't we all get along? Overly pompous edicts inevitably fail.The bishop's intolerance is derived from his narrow culture and is not faith-based. He is a blind man. He can't help himself. Pray for him or is it, it. would you consider this to be a tolerant perspective of someone with a different opinion? i certainly wouldn't. ironically, it appears that some of the least tolerant perspectives today are those who beat their chests about the intolerance of others and intolerantly launch ad hominems without knowing the individual. we need to respect and understand differing opinions, even/especially if we disagree with them. i say this respectfully, of course, as i appreciate your perspectives. however, the irony in this thread is difficult to escape as the intolerance of the diversity of ideas (not just superficial characteristics) is dividing not only our faith community but our world more generally. i agree with the wish that we could all get along, but it starts with genuine tolerance... not just tolerance of those with whom we agree. because one side will always feel that the other side is intolerant, and vice versa. There is no need to be tolerant of some attitudes and actions. If the bishop said that Asian students had to sit in the back of the class, or Hispanic students had to Anglicize their names, or black students had to straighten their hair, would we have to be tolerant of his opinions? Many, here and elsewhere, view the discrimnation against the LGBTQ+ community as being no different than that racism. We have told ourselves in recent years that it is not enough to not be racists ourselves, but instead we have to be antiracist in our lives. I would suggest that the same rules apply to this civil rights issue. Tolerance of ideas is great, but not when it is used to justify discrimination and if Catholic teaching is that mistreatment of our LGBTQ+ friends and family is allowed, I would suggest that Catholics are obligated to speak out against the Church just as Catholics spoke out against segregated Catholic elementary schools during the 1940s to the 1960s.
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Post by Tom on Aug 30, 2023 7:35:19 GMT -5
I can't seem to find that article I originally read, or my memory fails me. I really think I read that the policy was going to be literally written into the student handbook at diocesan schools. All well and good, the bishop is the head of all diocesan schools and can put whatever he wants into the student handbook.
Back in the 20th century neither SJ nor NDA even had student handbooks. 15 years ago, they might have had them, but if they did, no one but over zealous parents actually read them.
I don't see the bishop writing paragraphs in any potential student handbooks at SJ or NDA.
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Post by mm67 on Aug 30, 2023 7:40:07 GMT -5
I appreciate your giving me an opportunity to further explicate my comment. Agree with much of what you wrote about the need to appreciate and might I add understand others' perspectives. Most certainly your comment was an attempt at furthering tolerance of diverse viewpoints. And, I applaud you. Nevertheless, I thought my comment was quite tolerant. Do we reject or dismiss the blind man? Most certainly not. Mine was merely an explanation of the source of his views in an attempt to understand him. His views are rooted in culture as evidenced by the fact that his position is largely an American phenomenon not widely adopted in the universal church.. Certainly, one can listen, appreciate & try to understand which is what I did. And, one can also disagree and find his opinions & behavior offensive which I do. Looking at the behavior of this man, one in no way can claim he has exhibited tolerance of others. I reject out of hand any equivalence between my attempt at understanding and his willful rejection of others. I can get along with others including this bishop. But, can he get along with me and others? Would he extend the same respect to me as I would to him? I, sincerely doubt it. Thanks for your thought provoking response. Peace. Now let's beat Merrimack on Saturday.
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Post by alum on Aug 30, 2023 7:42:33 GMT -5
I can't seem to find that article I originally read, or my memory fails me. I really think I read that the policy was going to be literally written into the student handbook at diocesan schools. All well and good, the bishop is the head of all diocesan schools and can put whatever he wants into the student handbook. Back in the 20th century neither SJ nor NDA even had student handbooks. 15 years ago, they might have had them, but if they did, no one but over zealous parents actually read them. I don't see the bishop writing paragraphs in any potential student handbooks at SJ or NDA. The policy is linked in the article I posted above and you are right that it includes language for use in diocesean schools' handbooks. Based on his actions with the Nativity School, I don't think that he would limit himself to those schools if he thinks this is important but, as I noted above, I think he will pick his battles.
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Post by Tom on Aug 30, 2023 8:11:27 GMT -5
I can't seem to find that article I originally read, or my memory fails me. I really think I read that the policy was going to be literally written into the student handbook at diocesan schools. All well and good, the bishop is the head of all diocesan schools and can put whatever he wants into the student handbook. Back in the 20th century neither SJ nor NDA even had student handbooks. 15 years ago, they might have had them, but if they did, no one but over zealous parents actually read them. I don't see the bishop writing paragraphs in any potential student handbooks at SJ or NDA. The policy is linked in the article I posted above and you are right that it includes language for use in diocesean schools' handbooks. Based on his actions with the Nativity School, I don't think that he would limit himself to those schools if he thinks this is important but, as I noted above, I think he will pick his battles. Fair enough. I agree he would go after what he considers bad things under his role as shepherd for everyone in Worcester County no matter who is doing them. In the case of the Nativity School, they were openly flying a symbol that he interpreted as an endorsement of an activity that is sinful. Everyone driving down I-290 saw that "endorsement" from a Catholic school. No one really knows who is dancing with whom at the next SJ dance. I don't know everything going through the bishop's head, but I can see a potential difference between publicizing something and what happens behind closed doors
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 30, 2023 8:58:34 GMT -5
Well, I like our new bishop in Rhode Island. And, no, you can't have him. We already sent you Bishop McManus. Wasn't that enough?
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Post by cross1965 on Aug 30, 2023 12:02:32 GMT -5
Gloating like that is very unbecoming. No, that wasn't enough.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Aug 30, 2023 16:39:08 GMT -5
Can the good parishioners of Worcester County give him back…..with a player to be named later? 🤣
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