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Post by hcpride on Feb 6, 2024 4:53:28 GMT -5
Don’t know if HC will ever reverse their current policy but Dartmouth cites two broad reasons for ditching theirs: 1. "Our bottom line is simple: we believe a standardized testing requirement will improve -- not detract from -- our ability to bring the most promising and diverse students to our campus." 2. “SAT and ACT scores are a "key method" to help determine which students will succeed at Dartmouth, according to a study commissioned by school president Sian Beilock. “ www.cbsnews.com/amp/boston/news/dartmouth-college-standardized-test-requirement-act-act/Interesting because “diversity” is often in the forefront of arguments against standardized testing relative to college admissions. And there has been enthusiastic scholarship in the direction of disproving a link between standardized test results and college academic success.
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Post by purplehaze on Feb 6, 2024 10:08:33 GMT -5
MIT also made the same announcement - will be interesting if this policy reversal has legs across academia
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 7, 2024 8:37:02 GMT -5
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Post by hcpride on Feb 22, 2024 7:02:21 GMT -5
While there is no expectation Holy Cross will ditch its ‘test score optional’ program (for a number of reasons), Yale is going back to requiring standardized tests. Yale to Require Standardized Test Scores for Admissions
Officials said test-optional policies might have harmed students from lower-income families.
Yale University will require standardized test scores for admission for students applying to enter in the fall of 2025, becoming the second Ivy League university to abandon test-optional policies that had been widely embraced during the Covid pandemic.
Yale officials said in an announcement on Thursday that the shift to test-optional policies might have unwittingly harmed students from lower-income families whose test scores could have helped their chances…www.nytimes.com/2024/02/22/us/yale-standardized-testing-sat-act.html
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 22, 2024 18:40:20 GMT -5
When Doctors make blood tests optional before they determine a treatment recommendation, I think Admissions Departments should follow suit and make the S.A.T. optional.
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Post by hcpride on Feb 23, 2024 8:50:45 GMT -5
While this may not startle everyone, it certainly flies in the face of what we've heard from a variety of sources: For its part, Yale said its research has found that test scores are the single best predictor of a student's grades at the university, even after controlling for income and other demographic data. www.cbsnews.com/news/yale-sat-scores-ivy-league-admissions-fairness/
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 23, 2024 19:28:54 GMT -5
A scale tests for who is the heaviest and lightest, the SAT tests for who has the best aptitude for college and the Achievement Exams (do they still have those?) test who has learned the most in high school (or from parents who might be history buffs or other learning opportunities) in a particular subject. It's not rocket science, although the Math SAT would help select good candidates to study that in college.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 23, 2024 19:38:14 GMT -5
A scale tests for who is the heaviest and lightest, the SAT tests for who has the best aptitude for college and the Achievement Exams (do they still have those?) test who has learned the most in high school (or from parents who might be history buffs or other learning opportunities) in a particular subject. It's not rocket science, although the Math SAT would help select good candidates to study that in college. Back in the day, IIRC, HC required pre-med applicants to take the SAT IIs in biology and chemistry. And scores in these tests were a significant factor when it came to admission. The AP exams have replaced the SAT IIs. apstudents.collegeboard.org/course-index-page
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Post by matunuck on Mar 5, 2024 19:55:47 GMT -5
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Post by hcpride on Mar 7, 2024 7:30:32 GMT -5
In its announcement, Brown said that test results were a clear indicator of future success.
“Our analysis made clear that SAT and ACT scores are among the key indicators that help predict a student’s ability to succeed and thrive in Brown’s demanding academic environment,” the Providence, R.I., university said in a statement.www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/us/brown-university-admission-test-optional.html
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Post by Tom on Mar 7, 2024 9:01:40 GMT -5
In its announcement, Brown said that test results were a clear indicator of future success.
“Our analysis made clear that SAT and ACT scores are among the key indicators that help predict a student’s ability to succeed and thrive in Brown’s demanding academic environment,” the Providence, R.I., university said in a statement.www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/us/brown-university-admission-test-optional.html Either the requirements for success at Brown are different than those at HC or someone is misinterpreting information. This is exactly opposite of what administration at HC said when they got rid of the requirement
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 7, 2024 9:42:24 GMT -5
Those tests at Yale may well belong to the subset that tests for whatever result works best for the institution. When involved as a counselor and a leader of the graduate counseling program at Mercy College, almost every test of the predictability of the SAT said it was not accurate and certainly not as accurate as the College Testing Service said it was. There was also evidence of inherent bias along racial lines. I guess times have changed.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 7, 2024 10:02:39 GMT -5
In its announcement, Brown said that test results were a clear indicator of future success.
“Our analysis made clear that SAT and ACT scores are among the key indicators that help predict a student’s ability to succeed and thrive in Brown’s demanding academic environment,” the Providence, R.I., university said in a statement.www.nytimes.com/2024/03/05/us/brown-university-admission-test-optional.html Either the requirements for success at Brown are different than those at HC or someone is misinterpreting information. This is exactly opposite of what administration at HC said when they got rid of the requirement Quite so. And there has always been a (very) strong suspicion that schools like Holy Cross did not go to 'test score optional' due to actual doubts regarding SAT/ACT scores as reasonable predictors of college student performance.
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Post by Tom on Mar 7, 2024 10:31:32 GMT -5
Either the requirements for success at Brown are different than those at HC or someone is misinterpreting information. This is exactly opposite of what administration at HC said when they got rid of the requirement Quite so. And there has always been a (very) strong suspicion that schools like Holy Cross did not go to 'test score optional' due to actual doubts regarding SAT/ACT scores as reasonable predictors of college student performance. Well that would be disturbing. I attended an alumni association meeting at the time and an administration official specifically said that this was done because the tests were not accurate predictors of success at the school. If those suspicions you mention are true, that would mean someone lied to my face. Jesuits and people at a Catholic college should not be lying to my face. I'll go as far as top say people with no affiliation to a Catholic college should not be lying to my face
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Post by hcpride on Mar 7, 2024 11:10:30 GMT -5
Quite so. And there has always been a (very) strong suspicion that schools like Holy Cross did not go to 'test score optional' due to actual doubts regarding SAT/ACT scores as reasonable predictors of college student performance. Well that would be disturbing. I attended an alumni association meeting at the time and an administration official specifically said that this was done because the tests were not accurate predictors of success at the school. If those suspicions you mention are true, that would mean someone lied to my face. Jesuits and people at a Catholic college should not be lying to my face. I'll go as far as top say people with no affiliation to a Catholic college should not be lying to my face "Accurate"? Hmmmm. Well, it has never been a perfect predictor of college academic performance. (Of course nobody ever said it was - but that is another story). Nor the only predictor of college academic performance. (Of course nobody ever said it was - but that is another story. You doubtlessly noted that Holy Cross did continue to accept SAT/ACT scores.... if the student wanted to submit them. There were certain advantages for Holy Cross to gain by becoming test score optional. I don't see Holy Cross returning to an ACT/SAT requirement.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 7, 2024 11:15:50 GMT -5
HC should have ample data to determine the relative academic success of (1) the HC students who did not submit test scores and (2) the HC student who did submit test scores. I’m sure we must be tracking that every year
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Post by alum on Mar 7, 2024 11:33:09 GMT -5
I understand the arguments regarding making test scores optional. I also understand the arguments about high schools not having class ranks. I also know that, at least when my kids were applying, that admissions staffs did not consider actual AP test scores in making decisions although they considered the rigor of the classes as a factor. I also know that a larger number of kids get A's in high school classes than did once upon a time. What I don't get is how an admissions office at a highly selective school sorts the applicants when it doesn't have any information on which to base its decisions.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 7, 2024 12:09:59 GMT -5
Here is a formula I found to predict college GPA using SAT: A college admissions office uses the following linear equation to predict the grade point average of an incoming student: x = 0.003x + 0.8y − 4 where z is the predicted college GPA on a scale of 0 to 4.3, and x is the student's total SAT score on a scale of 400 to 1600, and y is the student's high school GPA on a scale of 0 to 4.3. The college may then admit students whose predicted GPA is at least their minumum for acceptance.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 7, 2024 13:14:46 GMT -5
I understand the arguments regarding making test scores optional. I also understand the arguments about high schools not having class ranks. I also know that, at least when my kids were applying, that admissions staffs did not consider actual AP test scores in making decisions although they considered the rigor of the classes as a factor. I also know that a larger number of kids get A's in high school classes than did once upon a time. What I don't get is how an admissions office at a highly selective school sorts the applicants when it doesn't have any information on which to base its decisions. A very good question. Also consider that kids nowadays have considerable ‘help’ (AI-ish and human professional) with admission essays and high school faculty recommendations are uniformly glowing - so those two additional possible discriminators are not. Fun fact, a very good public school near me had 16 kids tie for valedictorian (based solely on having a ‘perfect’ GPA)…if they did rank, and they do not, that would be 16 kids tied for number 1. I’m not sure the recent high school grade inflation is fully grasped by all but that should give an inkling. Of course the strong academic kids know to send in their SAT/ACT to highly selective test score optional schools and highlight their AP 5’s. They ask themselves the very same question you asked.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 7, 2024 13:37:34 GMT -5
My old school guidance office used to break class rank (GPA) ties at the 5th decimal place. It was a number with no statistically significant difference but it was used anyway. One student (as I have posted here before) was dropped from a tie for first to 14th. Why? Two courses he took before school in 9th grade were not given "honors" credit. He was dropped because he learned Japanese and took an advanced economics class. Lacking the "magic" honors designation on these courses, he was dropped from 1st to 14th because he had learned more than any of the students with whom he had been tied. The head of the counseling ofice had no problem with that. The student? He saw class rank in his high school as a joke and settled for a degree from Harvard.
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Post by hcpride on Apr 12, 2024 3:55:41 GMT -5
Harvard and Caltech are bringing back the standardized test requirement: In explaining its decision to accelerate the return to testing, Harvard cited a study by Opportunity Insights, which found that test scores were a better predictor of academic success in college than high school grades and that they can help admissions officers identify highly talented students from low income groups who might otherwise had gone unnoticed.www.nytimes.com/2024/04/11/us/harvard-test-scores-admissions.html
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 12, 2024 20:16:16 GMT -5
In a related note, State Divisions of Motor Vehicles are bringing back eye tests to get a driver's license.
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Post by sader1970 on Apr 24, 2024 19:02:42 GMT -5
From Time:
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Post by hcpride on Apr 25, 2024 4:57:04 GMT -5
Cornell to reinstate standardized test requirements for fall 2026… Though standardized test scores are imperfect measures of a student’s aptitude and potential, the data suggests that when taken in context, these scores provide valuable insights into a student’s potential for academic success while at Cornell, and thereby help to ensure that admitted students are likely to thrive academically. After accounting for other predictors, including high school GPA, student demographics and high school characteristics, those who were admitted with test scores tended to have somewhat stronger GPAs and were more likely to remain in good academic standing.
The data also showed that test-optional policies may have inadvertent consequences. Cornell’s fall 2022 New Student Survey showed that 91% of matriculating first-year students took the SAT and/or the ACT at least once (and 70% had taken multiple tests), but only 28% of applicants opted to provide test scores even though doing so could have advantaged them.news.cornell.edu/stories/2024/04/cornell-reinstate-standardized-test-requirements-fall-2026#:~:text=To%20provide%20students%20with%20time,the%20School%20of%20Industrial%20and Wouldn’t surprise me if the 20-ish most selective/top rated schools move back to “test scores required’ within the next year. Of course the kids who do well on the tests and apply to other schools (like Holy Cross) will continue to submit them.
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