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Post by lou on Feb 15, 2017 10:20:28 GMT -5
Bucknell has two serious candidates for POY among their starting five and a deep bench, we don't ...
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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 15, 2017 10:25:48 GMT -5
BBC-- compare shooting percentages (just one stat, but the most important one)of the players you align with each other--HC vs Bucknell--and then come back and tell us if you still think we are not overmatched One thing you may be overlooking when you make the case for giving JF 20-25 minutes ( I do agree that it would be good to see more of him) is his tendency to commit a lot of personal fouls. Yes, they shoot the ball a little better than us, but I wouldn't say that shooting percentage is the most important stat. Our size on the wing with Champion and Charles (both 6'6) should present significant matchup problems for Toomer (6'3) and McKenzie (6'1) if our offense would run sets to get them the ball in the right spot. I think either of those guys would have a lot of trouble if we isolated Charles on the block against them. Isolate Charles on the block against a smaller guard, draw help from other defenders, and those perimeter jump shots become significantly easier on an inside-out-pass without a defender in your face. Yes, Floyd has had some foul trouble, but doubling Foulland and giving JF help in the paint should mitigate those issues. It's very difficult to stay out of foul trouble if you're stuck guarding 2-3 guys in the paint after the rest of the defense over-extended itself on the 3-point line. Long story short, if the good HC, Bucknell, and American teams 01-09 were at the top of the league, I would be very worried. However, there is not a team in league right now that would scare me in any way close to those teams. We certainly have some flaws ourselves, but the forced narrative that we don't have any talent whatsoever is just silly.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 15, 2017 14:05:42 GMT -5
Take a look at Ken Pomeroy's website--well worth the modest annual subscription fee-- and you'll see that his data show that "effective field goal percentage" has by far the highest correlation to winning of any statistic (turnovers, offensive rebounding, free throw rate, etc) he tracks.
this does not mean, of course, that the player with the higher effective fg percentage is always the better player, but it is very important
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Post by hc2489 on Feb 15, 2017 15:16:59 GMT -5
BBC, Has AT been used in more than one way ? In his 32.9 minutes, when I have seen him, he has almost always played the point. On d he always plays the top of the 1-3-1. On the matchup, he starts off on the man with the ball. How do you want to play him ? disagree with your estimation of our talent. Bucknell and Lehigh both have more talent. Would not a team with talent have some past Pl all stars ? we may not have any this year either. AT has played the PG all 4 years, but it is my opinion that Carmody has used "pushed his buttons" effectively to maximize his potential. He is not Jave, he is not Torey, but he is also not a stiff. While not a prototypical Point Guard, and not necessarily how you would draw one up if you could start from scratch, there are certainly some positives in his game that should be further accentuated with more effective coaching. Regarding the talent, do you think Malachi would go 4 years without making an all-league team if he had competent coaching for his entire career? Karl Charles averaged 10.6 PPG and made the all-rookie team. How many guys in PL history averaged 10+ as a frosh and were on the all-rookie team without going on to be an all-PL player? I bet that number is small-to-zero.It's not like the current talent benchmark in the league is the HC and Bucknell teams from 02-06. The potential is there, and the league stinks. Let's get it done. RJ Evans
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 15, 2017 15:24:38 GMT -5
AT has played the PG all 4 years, but it is my opinion that Carmody has used "pushed his buttons" effectively to maximize his potential. He is not Jave, he is not Torey, but he is also not a stiff. While not a prototypical Point Guard, and not necessarily how you would draw one up if you could start from scratch, there are certainly some positives in his game that should be further accentuated with more effective coaching. Regarding the talent, do you think Malachi would go 4 years without making an all-league team if he had competent coaching for his entire career? Karl Charles averaged 10.6 PPG and made the all-rookie team. How many guys in PL history averaged 10+ as a frosh and were on the all-rookie team without going on to be an all-PL player? I bet that number is small-to-zero.It's not like the current talent benchmark in the league is the HC and Bucknell teams from 02-06. The potential is there, and the league stinks. Let's get it done. RJ Evans Ant? Ryan Serravalle Karl Charles is a sophomore. Are you insinuating he'll never make an All-PL team? I could see him making second or third this season.
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Post by hc2489 on Feb 15, 2017 15:33:34 GMT -5
Ant would just miss out based on BBC's 10+ as a frosh requirement. He averaged 9.4 as a frosh.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 15, 2017 15:38:32 GMT -5
Maximizing the outputs from AT at PG and Floyd at the 5 are the keys to our success this year. Both have a lot of potential, but need to be used effectively. We are not deep, but if those two are used properly at the 1 & 5, with what we have at the 2/3/4 positions (Benzan, Champion, Charles, Alexander), nobody in the PL is more talented than us from 1-6. What do you mean used "effectively" and "properly"? Is Carm supposed to magically give Ant beans from Jack's beanstalk to make him grow so he isn't as big of a liability on defense and is better at finishing in the lane? What about Ant's inability to shoot the ball? That on Carm? Floyd is a work-in-progress, but getting there. His offense will be limited outside of right around the basket, but that's okay (look at Foulland).
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 15, 2017 15:46:55 GMT -5
You think that it is two distinctly different coaches who have prevented Malachi from making an all-PL team. Ridiculous. did CBC prevent him from being the PLT MVP or did CBC aid him in that ? (CBC has played him max minutes both seasons with the most or second most shots.) you cannot have it both ways. MA cannot deserve the MVP in spite of the coach, yet not be PL all star because of the coach. KC may be an all star his final 2 seasons, but will not be one this season. So, again, you seem to be saying that KC made the all rookie team in spite of the poor coaching, yet will not make the all star team because of the coach. Illogical. The coaches and SIDs vote. They did not think MA deserved PL all star or pre season this year. so they are all underestimating his talent ? Bucknell and lehigh both have multiple all stars and candidates for this season. We do not. If we were comparing HC and Bucknell: -Thomas and Malachi should cancel each other out at the 4 I wish that were the case, but Thomas is probably the PL's best player. Malachi not at his level.-Foulland is certainly better than what we have at the 5, but he is not McNaughton or Muscala, and has a ceiling for how much damage he can do if defended properly. I think we can guard him pretty darn well with Floyd + help Fair, I wish we doubled more, but tough to do that in the 1-3-1.-I do not believe that they have a big advantage over us at the PG position. We are at a serious disadvantage at PG. Look at Stephen Brown's numbers and player compared to Ant -- he is better across the board. A 40% 3PT shooter and 49% 2PT FG dwafs Ant. Not close. To suggest otherwise is very disingenuous. Brown's O-Rating is 110.8, Ant's is 90.6.-That leaves the wings, where the combination of Charles, Benzan, and Champion are as good or better than anything they can throw out there. Maybe. But, we lack a true shooter, which Bucknell has in Kimball Mackenzie. Champion is supposed to be our shooter, but shooting 28% 3PT and 44% 2PT in PL games doesn't cut it.Double Foulland on the catch, don't leave Thomas, and they become a much, much different team than they are when we go out running around chasing turnovers at the NBA 3-point line without any regard for protecting the rim. It's amusing watching you try and say that HC's talent is on par with Bucknell. Simply not the case. Anyone can see that.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 15, 2017 15:49:07 GMT -5
Maximizing the outputs from AT at PG and Floyd at the 5 are the keys to our success this year. Both have a lot of potential, but need to be used effectively. We are not deep, but if those two are used properly at the 1 & 5, with what we have at the 2/3/4 positions (Benzan, Champion, Charles, Alexander), nobody in the PL is more talented than us from 1-6. What do you mean used "effectively" and "properly"? Is Carm supposed to magically give Ant beans from Jack's beanstalk to make him grow so he isn't as big of a liability on defense and is better at finishing in the lane? What about Ant's inability to shoot the ball? That on Carm? Floyd is a work-in-progress, but getting there. His offense will be limited outside of right around the basket, but that's okay (look at Foulland). How about allowing AT to push the ball when we have opportunities, and not just forcing the PO the entire game when we clearly don't have the personnel for it? Or is that too crazy of an idea? We don't need Floyd to score anywhere other than right around the basket. His contributions come from defense and rebounding, currently a lost art in Crusader Basketball.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 15, 2017 15:50:04 GMT -5
AT has played the PG all 4 years, but it is my opinion that Carmody has used "pushed his buttons" effectively to maximize his potential. He is not Jave, he is not Torey, but he is also not a stiff. While not a prototypical Point Guard, and not necessarily how you would draw one up if you could start from scratch, there are certainly some positives in his game that should be further accentuated with more effective coaching. Regarding the talent, do you think Malachi would go 4 years without making an all-league team if he had competent coaching for his entire career? Karl Charles averaged 10.6 PPG and made the all-rookie team. How many guys in PL history averaged 10+ as a frosh and were on the all-rookie team without going on to be an all-PL player? I bet that number is small-to-zero.It's not like the current talent benchmark in the league is the HC and Bucknell teams from 02-06. The potential is there, and the league stinks. Let's get it done. RJ Evans Nice example. Such a waste of talent due to poor coaching after his Frosh year. Do you think that he wasn't an All-PL talent?
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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 15, 2017 15:53:36 GMT -5
If we were comparing HC and Bucknell: -Thomas and Malachi should cancel each other out at the 4 I wish that were the case, but Thomas is probably the PL's best player. Malachi not at his level.-Foulland is certainly better than what we have at the 5, but he is not McNaughton or Muscala, and has a ceiling for how much damage he can do if defended properly. I think we can guard him pretty darn well with Floyd + help Fair, I wish we doubled more, but tough to do that in the 1-3-1.-I do not believe that they have a big advantage over us at the PG position. We are at a serious disadvantage at PG. Look at Stephen Brown's numbers and player compared to Ant -- he is better across the board. A 40% 3PT shooter and 49% 2PT FG dwafs Ant. Not close. To suggest otherwise is very disingenuous. Brown's O-Rating is 110.8, Ant's is 90.6.-That leaves the wings, where the combination of Charles, Benzan, and Champion are as good or better than anything they can throw out there. Maybe. But, we lack a true shooter, which Bucknell has in Kimball Mackenzie. Champion is supposed to be our shooter, but shooting 28% 3PT and 44% 2PT in PL games doesn't cut it.Double Foulland on the catch, don't leave Thomas, and they become a much, much different team than they are when we go out running around chasing turnovers at the NBA 3-point line without any regard for protecting the rim. It's amusing watching you try and say that HC's talent is on par with Bucknell. Simply not the case. Anyone can see that. Thompson's ORating as a Frosh was 119.7. Tough to double out of the 1-3-1? DON'T PLAY A 1-3-1 IF THE OPPOSING TEAM'S BEST PLAYERS PLAY THE 4 & 5. Also, Kimball McKenzie makes 1.6 3's per game. Let's not pretend he's Ray Allen.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Feb 15, 2017 16:15:10 GMT -5
Back to the topic of playing time adjustments . . . Believe Jehyve is this year's Eric Green, and we are rapidly approaching the point where he needs to play the majority of minutes at the 5 if we are going to make some noise in the PLT. We saw multiple examples in the Lehigh game where JF altered offensive intentions - i.e., guys driving inside, especially on the baseline, were forced to dribble the ball back out or pass it back out for lower percentage shots. We have been getting killed inside all year, but Floyd's active and disruptive presence had a lot to do with Lehigh making less than 40% of their twos. I think that presence (along with a couple baskets of his own) is worth more than the 3-4 extra points MH has averaged in PL play.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 15, 2017 16:19:42 GMT -5
Back to the topic of playing time adjustments . . . Believe Jehyve is this year's Eric Green, and we are rapidly approaching the point where he needs to play the majority of minutes at the 5 if we are going to make some noise in the PLT. We saw multiple examples in the Lehigh game where JF altered offensive intentions - i.e., guys driving inside, especially on the baseline, were forced to dribble the ball back out or pass it back out for lower percentage shots. We have been getting killed inside all year, but Floyd's active and disruptive presence had a lot to do with Lehigh making less than 40% of their twos. I think that presence (along with a couple baskets of his own) is worth more than the 3-4 extra points MH has averaged in PL play. Carm seems to agree with you, Woo. Floyd's been averaging 20 mpg over the past three games. In the previous 11 PL games, he saw just 8.3 mpg. Be interesting to see how much he plays tonight -- in our first game against Army, they shot 19-26 2PT FG.
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Post by hchoops on Feb 15, 2017 16:23:27 GMT -5
agree about the value of JF disagree about equating that with EG last season EG's greatest value was on the base of the 1-3-1 We do not have anyone comparable to play there,though PB has greatly improved his play there
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Post by WorcesterGray on Feb 15, 2017 16:39:52 GMT -5
agree about the value of JF disagree about equating that with EG last season EG's greatest value was on the base of the 1-3-1 We do not have anyone comparable to play there,though PB has greatly improved his play there Agreed, hoops - just suggesting that, as a key defensive change sparked the run last year, so a key defensive change could spark a similar run this season. Do you have an opinion as to which defense (match-up or 1-3-1) Floyd works better in?
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Post by hchoops on Feb 15, 2017 16:50:34 GMT -5
the 1-3-1 is somewhat better for his avoiding fouls and keeping him consistently close to the hoop for def rebounds and contesting interior shots
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Post by ericobeyyourthirst on Feb 15, 2017 17:33:51 GMT -5
It's amusing watching you try and say that HC's talent is on par with Bucknell. Simply not the case. Anyone can see that. Thompson's ORating as a Frosh was 119.7. Tough to double out of the 1-3-1? DON'T PLAY A 1-3-1 IF THE OPPOSING TEAM'S BEST PLAYERS PLAY THE 4 & 5. 1. Thompson hasn't been the same player since the shoulder injury - look at his stats sophomore - senior year. Doesn't have anything to do with the system. 2. Using this logic should Syracuse play man to man against a team that lights up the 2-3 zone? Maybe VCU shouldn't press against teams with a great press breaker?
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Post by ncaam on Feb 15, 2017 18:43:04 GMT -5
AT hurt most by change to PO and 1-3-1. Speed his asset and in the shirt defender. Lotsa standing around. Suspect he's had a love hate relationship with Coach C.
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Post by ericobeyyourthirst on Feb 15, 2017 18:54:00 GMT -5
AT hurt most by change to PO and 1-3-1. Speed his asset and in the shirt defender. Lotsa standing around. Suspect he's had a love hate relationship with Coach C. You're telling me speed is the reason he's shot >30% from 3 the past two seasons and >33% from the field? I'm sorry, I just don't see the correlation there. I agree the system doesn't fit his style of play, but the stats (and there's plenty of them) suggest he hasn't been the same player since the injury.
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Post by ncaam on Feb 15, 2017 21:59:53 GMT -5
AT hurt most by change to PO and 1-3-1. Speed his asset and in the shirt defender. Lotsa standing around. Suspect he's had a love hate relationship with Coach C. You're telling me speed is the reason he's shot >30% from 3 the past two seasons and >33% from the field? I'm sorry, I just don't see the correlation there. I agree the system doesn't fit his style of play, but the stats (and there's plenty of them) suggest he hasn't been the same player since the injury. Actually wasn't disagreeing with you just adding something else.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 27, 2017 16:48:46 GMT -5
I believe BBC is the most knowledgeable poster on the board. Insightful and provocative. His only agenda is the truth. I agree with most of what he says. But to say hc and Bucknell are equal in talent is way off base. Two big holes at hc, the 5 and the bench. True, NF is not the center for the Hawks but MH is not Big Tim, Pat, JK or Sankes. Look at what NF did to us at the Hart. Also compare our bench to their bench. Ouchie. We have some guys who on any given night can be shut out on the status sheet. There is currently a very sharp drop-off after our top 6, which Bucknell does not have, but there is no reason why our top 6 can't compete with their top 6. Bucknell had four of their top six guys make an all-league team. Ipso facto, they have four of the top 15 players in the PL. We have one. But we can compete with their top six? Got it. They are simply more talented.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 27, 2017 17:50:17 GMT -5
There is currently a very sharp drop-off after our top 6, which Bucknell does not have, but there is no reason why our top 6 can't compete with their top 6. Bucknell had four of their top six guys make an all-league team. Ipso facto, they have four of the top 15 players in the PL. We have one. But we can compete with their top six? Got it. They are simply more talented. Do they pick all-league teams based on a skills competition, or based on how they fared in 5-on-5 team basketball? Our top 6 should be extremely competitive vs their top 6.
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Post by dadominate on Feb 27, 2017 18:18:24 GMT -5
Bucknell had four of their top six guys make an all-league team. Ipso facto, they have four of the top 15 players in the PL. We have one. But we can compete with their top six? Got it. They are simply more talented. Do they pick all-league teams based on a skills competition, or based on how they fared in 5-on-5 team basketball? Our top 6 should be extremely competitive vs their top 6. are you serious?!? the talent on bucknell and holy cross from 1-6 (or any other permutation) is not even close!!! if anything, the fact that we are not deep and have players playing so many minutes would INCREASE their chances of being named to the all-league teams due to statistical inflation. seriously, how you can come to this conclusion with a straight face after presumably watching lots of games yourself and then seeing the league's coaches so overwhelmingly favor bucknell's players is actually pretty bizarre. we may beat bucknell again when it matters most just like we did last year if we can collectively step it up again, but bucknell is clearly more talented than us. the results on the court and the conclusions of the coaches in the league couldn't have been clearer. the voting on these awards is done by the people who know the game and the players in the league the best. i can see questioning the pre-season magazines - though it is worth noting generally had the same conclusion - but it's hard to argue with the post-season awards voted by the league's coaches. some of our players aren't very good (will not name names) and others were inconsistent (alexander, champion, charles, etc.). while he is not (yet) a star, the most consistent player on a game-to-game basis was probably pat benzan. while this group will not go down in history as being very talented and certainly not consistent, i do hope this patriot league tournament will establish them as being a fantastic group in the clutch. they have that opportunity firmly within grasp!
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Post by ncaam on Feb 27, 2017 18:26:06 GMT -5
And they are more talented next year, the year after, and the year....
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Post by hchoops on Feb 27, 2017 18:29:07 GMT -5
And they are more talented next year, the year after, and the year.... We shall see. not all predictions, even yours, come true.
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