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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 22, 2016 12:14:23 GMT -5
I'm not sure sure BU is better than Bucknell. Lehigh is very good -- on the verge of being a top 100 team. So it's not going to be another cakewalk through a bunch of Tomato Cans (s/o Shank Shaughnessy '75) this March?
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 22, 2016 12:19:15 GMT -5
I'm not sure sure BU is better than Bucknell. Lehigh is very good -- on the verge of being a top 100 team. So it's not going to be another cakewalk through a bunch of Tomato Cans (s/o Shank Shaughnessy '75) this March? No, but to quote my friend KY 75, you already knew that.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 22, 2016 12:27:59 GMT -5
A poster named hc70 long ago said something about not being able to evaluate a coach until he has a roster of all his own players. I do not know if an exception could be made if a coach wins the league in his first year with 2 of his own players.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 22, 2016 12:31:50 GMT -5
A poster named hc70 long ago said something about not being able to evaluate a coach until he has a roster of all his own players. I do not know if an exception could be made if a coach wins the league in his first year with 2 of his own players. Straight to the Hall of Fame based on a 4-game stretch against Tomato Cans?
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Post by hchoops on Nov 22, 2016 12:43:58 GMT -5
A poster named hc70 long ago said something about not being able to evaluate a coach until he has a roster of all his own players. I do not know if an exception could be made if a coach wins the league in his first year with 2 of his own players. Straight to the Hall of Fame based on a 4-game stretch against Tomato Cans? As I recall, HC did not do too well against those same cans of tomatoes, or other cans, for eight years previously.
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Post by HC1843 on Nov 22, 2016 12:48:29 GMT -5
My point in bumping this was to show how we were all gaga over TC, including me. I saw him as immediately taking EG's minutes. There is another, longer thread where the joy over all the frosh was unbounded. I fear that what has happened in Patriot League football, which we all accept as true, the separation of have and have nots, is happening now in basketball. Bucknell has an outstanding team. Close behind are BU and LU. AU on the fringe. And then there are the rest. Recruiting is separating those teams from HC . Except that we won the tourney last year and only have three games to assess the frosh and what it reflects about our recuiting. the sample size is far too small. I would posit that we are digging out of Milan's hole, and cannot make any type of unbiased assessment at this point about our frosh. now the haters gonna hate ni matter how silly it seems.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 22, 2016 13:07:10 GMT -5
Straight to the Hall of Fame based on a 4-game stretch against Tomato Cans? As I recall, HC did not do too well against those same cans of tomatoes, or other cans, for eight years previously. To quote SOV and his friend KY75, you already knew that six of those years were with extremely sub-par coaching, seven years prior we lost in the PLC to a team that was far superior to anyone in the PL last year, and eight years prior we lost in the first round to another team that was far superior to anyone in the PL last year (which would have been the same result as last year if it wasn't for a miracle three pointer that didn't really have anything to do with any type of coaching).
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Post by hchoops on Nov 22, 2016 13:13:53 GMT -5
Did the coaching get us to the point where the three point shot allowed us to tie Lehigh and then win in OT ? How Was the coaching against Bucknell ? You can readily dismiss the previous 7 years with your questionable comparisons, but each season is evaluated on how a team does against those who Are in its league that season. No one returns championships because the competition was deemed inferior that season.
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Post by HC92 on Nov 22, 2016 13:20:54 GMT -5
Did the coaching get us to the point where the three point shot allowed us to tie Lehigh and then win in OT ? How Was the coaching against Bucknell ? You can readily dismiss the previous 7 years with your questionable comparisons, but each season is evaluated on how a team does against those who Are in its league that season. No one returns championships because the competition was deemed inferior that season. You have to give credit to caro as a contrarian. He thinks folks are too harsh on TG who has won one league championship in 13 seasons but that they're too easy on Carmody who has won one league championship in one season.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 22, 2016 13:28:57 GMT -5
Did the coaching get us to the point where the three point shot allowed us to tie Lehigh and then win in OT ? How Was the coaching against Bucknell ? You can readily dismiss the previous 7 years with your questionable comparisons, but each season is evaluated on how a team does against those who Are in its league that season. No one returns championships because the competition was deemed inferior that season. You have to give credit to caro as a contrarian. He thinks folks are too harsh on TG who has won one league championship in 13 seasons but that they're too easy on Carmody who has won one league championship in one season. Holy Cross & Patriot League Basketball are not equal to Holy Cross & Patriot League Football. The coaches we can hire, support versus other PL schools, ability and opportunity to compete in THE NCAA Tournament (not 1-AA tournament), recruiting landscape, etc. etc. all significantly different. Using the same criteria to evaluate the two would be foolish.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 22, 2016 13:31:13 GMT -5
Did the coaching get us to the point where the three point shot allowed us to tie Lehigh and then win in OT ? How Was the coaching against Bucknell ? You can readily dismiss the previous 7 years with your questionable comparisons, but each season is evaluated on how a team does against those who Are in its league that season. No one returns championships because the competition was deemed inferior that season. Of course no one returns a championship because of the level of competition in that given season, but to ignore that as part of the evaluation of what truly happened would be avoiding the truth.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 22, 2016 13:40:34 GMT -5
Did the coaching get us to the point where the three point shot allowed us to tie Lehigh and then win in OT ? How Was the coaching against Bucknell ? You can readily dismiss the previous 7 years with your questionable comparisons, but each season is evaluated on how a team does against those who Are in its league that season. No one returns championships because the competition was deemed inferior that season. Of course no one returns a championship because of the level of competition in that given season, but to ignore that as part of the evaluation of what truly happened would be avoiding the truth. You conveniently did not answer the two question asked. the returning the championships was hyperbole. You can ignore that sentence if you so choose. It does not alter the meaning of the previous one. and "what truly happened" was a PLC, no matter how weak the opponents in your mind.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 22, 2016 14:00:06 GMT -5
Of course no one returns a championship because of the level of competition in that given season, but to ignore that as part of the evaluation of what truly happened would be avoiding the truth. You conveniently did not answer the two question asked. the returning the championships was hyperbole. You can ignore that sentence if you so choose. It does not alter the meaning of the previous one. and "what truly happened" was a PLC, no matter how weak the opponents in your mind. The coaching set up the 1-3-1, which was magnificent. Tremendous stuff. It was a "sneak attack" that teams were not ready for and it worked magnificently. Kudos to Coach Carmody! However, the 1-3-1 is not scalable to long term success, as evidenced by the fact that the top half of D1 is averaging over 50% on FG's against us in a sample size that continues to grow, and it is not possible to have the same type of "sneak attack" to use every March. The stars aligned perfectly for us last March and we were able to capitalize on that - tremendous! However, to sit back and think the stars will align for us in the same way every year is silly. If we wanted to just ignore opponents, circumstance, etc. and just look at results, Northwestern never made it to the NCAAs in 13 seasons under Carmody and finished higher than 7th in the Big 10 once.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 22, 2016 14:37:24 GMT -5
You conveniently did not answer the two question asked. the returning the championships was hyperbole. You can ignore that sentence if you so choose. It does not alter the meaning of the previous one. and "what truly happened" was a PLC, no matter how weak the opponents in your mind. The coaching set up the 1-3-1, which was magnificent. Tremendous stuff. It was a "sneak attack" that teams were not ready for and it worked magnificently. Kudos to Coach Carmody! However, the 1-3-1 is not scalable to long term success, as evidenced by the fact that the top half of D1 is averaging over 50% on FG's against us in a sample size that continues to grow, and it is not possible to have the same type of "sneak attack" to use every March. The stars aligned perfectly for us last March and we were able to capitalize on that - tremendous! However, to sit back and think the stars will align for us in the same way every year is silly. If we wanted to just ignore opponents, circumstance, etc. and just look at results, Northwestern never made it to the NCAAs in 13 season under Carmody and finished higher than 7th once. You may have a point that the 1-3-1 may not be scalable to long term suspccess though Beilein had success with it at WVU for the Pittsnogle years. That is why I was pleased to also see the match up D against the first 3 teams. That has potential for longer term success, esp paired with the 1-3-1, ESP in the PL. Do not forget that the offense was very successful at the end of last season and I believe will continue to be this season, esp in the PL, esp vs Man defenses. And both the offense and defense eventually came together with only two of Carmody's recruits. The rest were clearly recruited for a vastly different system. i do not know much about astrology,and your alignment, so I think past coaching success is a more reliable barometer of how we will do long term, even if your alleged stars do not align this season.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Nov 22, 2016 14:53:10 GMT -5
You conveniently did not answer the two question asked. the returning the championships was hyperbole. You can ignore that sentence if you so choose. It does not alter the meaning of the previous one. and "what truly happened" was a PLC, no matter how weak the opponents in your mind. The coaching set up the 1-3-1, which was magnificent. Tremendous stuff. It was a "sneak attack" that teams were not ready for and it worked magnificently. Kudos to Coach Carmody! However, the 1-3-1 is not scalable to long term success, as evidenced by the fact that the top half of D1 is averaging over 50% on FG's against us in a sample size that continues to grow, and it is not possible to have the same type of "sneak attack" to use every March. The stars aligned perfectly for us last March and we were able to capitalize on that - tremendous! However, to sit back and think the stars will align for us in the same way every year is silly. If we wanted to just ignore opponents, circumstance, etc. and just look at results, Northwestern never made it to the NCAAs in 13 seasons under Carmody and finished higher than 7th in the Big 10 once.Okay, we've been over this many, many times but perhaps you were not visiting the board when we did: Coach Carmody's record at Northwestern was dramatically better (in total and in the Big 10) that his predecessors. That's a simple fact. Implying that Coach Carmody did poorly at Northwestern because NU did not make it to the NCAA's would be like saying a man who coached Columbia University football to a succession of 5-5 records was not a good coach because he won no Ivy League championships.
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Post by hc6774 on Nov 22, 2016 14:58:16 GMT -5
Is there any doubt why CBC came out of retirement (albeit forced)?? He said to win championships but I don't think he meant the NCAA... He has been dismissive of last year's PLC Is TC a CBC recruit?
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Post by dadominate on Nov 22, 2016 15:07:02 GMT -5
You conveniently did not answer the two question asked. the returning the championships was hyperbole. You can ignore that sentence if you so choose. It does not alter the meaning of the previous one. and "what truly happened" was a PLC, no matter how weak the opponents in your mind. The coaching set up the 1-3-1, which was magnificent. Tremendous stuff. It was a "sneak attack" that teams were not ready for and it worked magnificently. Kudos to Coach Carmody! However, the 1-3-1 is not scalable to long term success, as evidenced by the fact that the top half of D1 is averaging over 50% on FG's against us in a sample size that continues to grow, and it is not possible to have the same type of "sneak attack" to use every March. The stars aligned perfectly for us last March and we were able to capitalize on that - tremendous! However, to sit back and think the stars will align for us in the same way every year is silly. If we wanted to just ignore opponents, circumstance, etc. and just look at results, Northwestern never made it to the NCAAs in 13 seasons under Carmody and finished higher than 7th in the Big 10 once. and if you want to continue to completely ignore carmody's time at princeton because it does not fit your most bullheaded point of view on this subject, i will remind you to "just look at the results" that as a head coach at princeton, carmody was 92–25 (.786) overall, 50–6 (.893) in the ivy league, went to the ncaa tournament twice (winning a game), and the nit twice (advancing to the quarterfinals).
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 22, 2016 15:46:45 GMT -5
The coaching set up the 1-3-1, which was magnificent. Tremendous stuff. It was a "sneak attack" that teams were not ready for and it worked magnificently. Kudos to Coach Carmody! However, the 1-3-1 is not scalable to long term success, as evidenced by the fact that the top half of D1 is averaging over 50% on FG's against us in a sample size that continues to grow, and it is not possible to have the same type of "sneak attack" to use every March. The stars aligned perfectly for us last March and we were able to capitalize on that - tremendous! However, to sit back and think the stars will align for us in the same way every year is silly. If we wanted to just ignore opponents, circumstance, etc. and just look at results, Northwestern never made it to the NCAAs in 13 seasons under Carmody and finished higher than 7th in the Big 10 once. and if you want to continue to completely ignore carmody's time at princeton because it does not fit your most bullheaded point of view on this subject, i will remind you to "just look at the results" that as a head coach at princeton, carmody was 92–25 (.786) overall, 50–6 (.893) in the ivy league, went to the ncaa tournament twice (winning a game), and the nit twice (advancing to the quarterfinals). He inherited a well oiled machine from Pete Carill and a team that was in the 2nd round of the NCAA Tournament after one of the most well-known upsets in tournament history in Carrill's final year. Surely you don't consider that situation at Princeton 20 years ago on par with the current situation at HC, do you? This is all a distraction from my main point that I don't understand how you can objectively look at the way we play defense and think that we are on track to sustained success. If you want to put your head in the sand and think that a great 4-game run over 9 days against Tomato Cans is going to translate into prolonged success, then you just aren't going to objectively look at the play on the floor and any type of attempt at discussion is futile. Just tip our purple caps and carry along down Easy St.
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Post by lou on Nov 22, 2016 15:49:10 GMT -5
Please define sustained success. So far Carmody has one championship in one season on the job, I'll take it
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 22, 2016 16:15:15 GMT -5
Please define sustained success. So far Carmody has one championship in one season on the job, I'll take it Lou, are you here in disguise from your previous position as Athletic Director at Notre Dame, where you gave Charlie Weis a new 10-year contract extension after just 7 games?
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Post by lou on Nov 22, 2016 16:17:35 GMT -5
Please define sustained success. So far Carmody has one championship in one season on the job, I'll take it Lou, are you here in disguise from your previous position as Athletic Director at Notre Dame, where you gave Charlie Weis a new 10-year contract extension after just 7 games? Wow, that obvious??
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Post by dadominate on Nov 22, 2016 16:20:42 GMT -5
and if you want to continue to completely ignore carmody's time at princeton because it does not fit your most bullheaded point of view on this subject, i will remind you to "just look at the results" that as a head coach at princeton, carmody was 92–25 (.786) overall, 50–6 (.893) in the ivy league, went to the ncaa tournament twice (winning a game), and the nit twice (advancing to the quarterfinals). He inherited a well oiled machine from Pete Carill and a team that was in the 2nd round of the NCAA Tournament after one of the most well-known upsets in tournament history in Carrill's final year. Surely you don't consider that situation at Princeton 20 years ago on par with the current situation at HC, do you? This is all a distraction from my main point that I don't understand how you can objectively look at the way we play defense and think that we are on track to sustained success. If you want to put your head in the sand and think that a great 4-game run over 9 days against Tomato Cans is going to translate into prolonged success, then you just aren't going to objectively look at the play on the floor and any type of attempt at discussion is futile. Just tip our purple caps and carry along down Easy St. did you major in exaggeration, hyperbole, and straw man arguments? i am not at all happy with our defense nor am i sticking my head in the sand. nobody is here. this team is not talented enough to hope we can shoot our way to a championship without playing better defense. carmody doesn't believe this either as he has commented on our poor defense in post-game interviews. more generally, this kind of crap seems to be your go to reaction to every question you don't answer or point you ignore. your portrayal of carmody as a failure at northwestern - despite holding the job for OVER A DECADE - and dismissal of carmody's success at princeton is asinine and completely discordant with reality. plus, it's not as if carmody had nothing to do with the "most well-known upset" of a 13 seed over a 4 seed. what does this game being well known have to do with anything having to do with carmody's coaching ability, anyway? this upset is well known for the fact that princeton was an academic school, with a character of a head coach, with a unique style that came close to beating georgetown a few years earlier, and they beat the defending national champion and a storied ucla program (who had a relatively down year that season), on a back door cut with a great celebration from guys who looked like they came out of hoosiers. and do you seriously think carril was running every element of that program that year and carmody - the heir apparent to take over when carril retired - was simply getting the doughnuts in the morning? how clueless can you possibly be about how a basketball program is run?!? carmody took over the program, and after two years, brought them farther than they had ever gone. sure, some of this was due to the foundation that carril established. but carril had been coaching at princeton for 30 years and never reached the national top 10 ranking and post-season appearances every year that carmody brought princeton. carmody is not perfect. but he is about as fine of a coach as you'll get in the patriot league. but since he isn't kevin willard and we don't live in fantasyland where such things happen, i doubt you'll ever be happy with him.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 22, 2016 16:30:08 GMT -5
He inherited a well oiled machine from Pete Carill and a team that was in the 2nd round of the NCAA Tournament after one of the most well-known upsets in tournament history in Carrill's final year. Surely you don't consider that situation at Princeton 20 years ago on par with the current situation at HC, do you? This is all a distraction from my main point that I don't understand how you can objectively look at the way we play defense and think that we are on track to sustained success. If you want to put your head in the sand and think that a great 4-game run over 9 days against Tomato Cans is going to translate into prolonged success, then you just aren't going to objectively look at the play on the floor and any type of attempt at discussion is futile. Just tip our purple caps and carry along down Easy St. did you major in exaggeration, hyperbole, and straw man arguments? i am not at all happy with our defense nor am i sticking my head in the sand. nobody is here. this team is not talented enough to hope we can shoot our way to a championship without playing better defense. carmody doesn't believe this either as he has commented on our poor defense in post-game interviews. more generally, this kind of crap seems to be your go to reaction to every question you don't answer or point you ignore. your portrayal of carmody as a failure at northwestern - despite holding the job for OVER A DECADE - and dismissal of carmody's success at princeton is asinine and completely discordant with reality. plus, it's not as if carmody had nothing to do with the "most well-known upset" of a 13 seed over a 4 seed. what does this game being well known have to do with anything having to do with carmody's coaching ability, anyway? this upset is well known for the fact that princeton was an academic school, with a character of a head coach, with a unique style that came close to beating georgetown a few years earlier, and they beat the defending national champion and a storied ucla program (who had a relatively down year that season), on a back door cut with a great celebration from guys who looked like they came out of hoosiers. and do you seriously think carril was running every element of that program that year and carmody - the heir apparent to take over when carril retired - was simply getting the doughnuts in the morning? how clueless can you possibly be about how a basketball program is run?!? carmody took over the program, and after two years, brought them farther than they had ever gone. sure, some of this was due to the foundation that carril established. but carril had been coaching at princeton for 30 years and never reached the national top 10 ranking and post-season appearances every year that carmody brought princeton. carmody is not perfect. but he is about as fine of a coach as you'll get in the patriot league. but since he isn't kevin willard and we don't live in fantasyland where such things happen, i doubt you'll ever be happy with him. My bad, I had it reversed. We're supposed to IGNORE Northwestern, and EXAGGERATE what happened 20 years ago at Princeton. Add a gallon of water, add ice, stir for 25 seconds, and you've got yourself some delicious Purple Kool-Aid!
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Post by HC92 on Nov 22, 2016 16:38:35 GMT -5
You have to give credit to caro as a contrarian. He thinks folks are too harsh on TG who has won one league championship in 13 seasons but that they're too easy on Carmody who has won one league championship in one season. Holy Cross & Patriot League Basketball are not equal to Holy Cross & Patriot League Football. The coaches we can hire, support versus other PL schools, ability and opportunity to compete in THE NCAA Tournament (not 1-AA tournament), recruiting landscape, etc. etc. all significantly different. Using the same criteria to evaluate the two would be foolish. Good point about PL football and hoop being different. In football, we're competing against 6 other schools, one of which does not offer athletic scholarships. In basketball, we're competing against 9 other schools, each of which offers athletic scholarships. Not understanding your points comparing our basketball opportunities to our football opportunities. In basketball, we're competing against other basketball programs that play for a chance to compete in THE NCAA Torunament. Carmody is 1 for 1 against our 9 peer schools. In football, we're competing against a bunch of schools seeking a bid to the FCS tournament. TG is 1 for 13 against our 5 peer schools plus Georgetown.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 22, 2016 16:52:00 GMT -5
Good point about PL football and hoop being different. In football, we're competing against 6 other schools, one of which does not offer athletic scholarships. In basketball, we're competing against 9 other schools, each of which offers athletic scholarships. Not understanding your points comparing our basketball opportunities to our football opportunities. In basketball, we're competing against other basketball programs that play for a chance to compete in THE NCAA Torunament. Carmody is 1 for 1 against our 9 peer schools. In football, we're competing against a bunch of schools seeking a bid to the FCS tournament. TG is 1 for 13 against our 5 peer schools plus Georgetown. To "level the playing field" for your truly tremendous comparison, if PL Basketball had the same format for selecting a champion as PL Footbball, Carmody would be 0-1, given his 5-13 record and 9th place finish in the league.
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